Scion Sales Down
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Scikotics
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And thats why I dont shout and try to tell toyota anything 
If they dont make the product I am looking for on the next car, then I wont buy from them. That is what they hear, not a bunch of people on a forum shouting. Especially when half of those whining about the previous models (tC, xb.. all of them) have baseless arguments. The original offerings were exactly what they intended to be, no more, no less. And it worked for Toyota, hence the original sales. The Scion line has been great cars. If they stop being what people want, they wont buy them (myself included). I am not a brand fanboy, so if I dont buy Toyota next time it isnt like it is some earth shattering point I am making. I like my two toyota products and I like the trusty old saturn I have had forever (Which still has not let me down.. ever). I will probably be looking to replace it as a winter car at some point with an older toyota pickup (so not new). I will also be looking for a good project car for the track at some point as well. It will be RWD and buildable.. so again, not new.
As far as Kia and Hyundai, they have done nothing so far but prove the "initial" quality is up, which means nothing other than they will get peoples attention up front. They could be great cars, or the worst cars ever built as they were in the past, but the proof is in the pudding, aka when they start getting a few models that most drivers have put 100,000 + miles on without major issues. Judging quality of a car at 20,000 - 30,000 etc miles means it can live through its initial warranty.. not that it is a reliable car. So we will see. And if they make something I like that is worth a crap next time I am looking, then I would consider them.
And the quote above my post is as true as can be, especially for those that used to praise their Scion, bought something else, then keep coming back to bash how crappy Scion is and talk up their new ride. Never have I seen this so much than on this forum... but there is a high percentage of younger buyers on here, so that is to be expected I guess.
And poor sales do not equal a crappy product. They may equal a product that doesnt meet what that generation of buyers are looking for, but the product in and of itself could be just fine. Like I said, this car does everything it was meant to do pretty reliably so far. It may not fit the wants of the market now, and it should go if so and be replaced by something else. But any complaints that it is "Slow" are just stupid, for example, since it was obviously not built to be "Fast" (nor was any of its class). I think the dumbest thing buyers do is buy something based off an assumption that it is something it is not, even after a test drive, magazine tests, etc. IF you bought this car thinking it was a sports car, your thinking was the crappy part, not the car
Not aimed at anyone in particular.. just observations over the years. It must suck to never be completely satisfied because of unrealistic expectations!
If they dont make the product I am looking for on the next car, then I wont buy from them. That is what they hear, not a bunch of people on a forum shouting. Especially when half of those whining about the previous models (tC, xb.. all of them) have baseless arguments. The original offerings were exactly what they intended to be, no more, no less. And it worked for Toyota, hence the original sales. The Scion line has been great cars. If they stop being what people want, they wont buy them (myself included). I am not a brand fanboy, so if I dont buy Toyota next time it isnt like it is some earth shattering point I am making. I like my two toyota products and I like the trusty old saturn I have had forever (Which still has not let me down.. ever). I will probably be looking to replace it as a winter car at some point with an older toyota pickup (so not new). I will also be looking for a good project car for the track at some point as well. It will be RWD and buildable.. so again, not new. As far as Kia and Hyundai, they have done nothing so far but prove the "initial" quality is up, which means nothing other than they will get peoples attention up front. They could be great cars, or the worst cars ever built as they were in the past, but the proof is in the pudding, aka when they start getting a few models that most drivers have put 100,000 + miles on without major issues. Judging quality of a car at 20,000 - 30,000 etc miles means it can live through its initial warranty.. not that it is a reliable car. So we will see. And if they make something I like that is worth a crap next time I am looking, then I would consider them.
And the quote above my post is as true as can be, especially for those that used to praise their Scion, bought something else, then keep coming back to bash how crappy Scion is and talk up their new ride. Never have I seen this so much than on this forum... but there is a high percentage of younger buyers on here, so that is to be expected I guess.
And poor sales do not equal a crappy product. They may equal a product that doesnt meet what that generation of buyers are looking for, but the product in and of itself could be just fine. Like I said, this car does everything it was meant to do pretty reliably so far. It may not fit the wants of the market now, and it should go if so and be replaced by something else. But any complaints that it is "Slow" are just stupid, for example, since it was obviously not built to be "Fast" (nor was any of its class). I think the dumbest thing buyers do is buy something based off an assumption that it is something it is not, even after a test drive, magazine tests, etc. IF you bought this car thinking it was a sports car, your thinking was the crappy part, not the car
Not aimed at anyone in particular.. just observations over the years. It must suck to never be completely satisfied because of unrealistic expectations!
Last edited by engifineer; Jun 11, 2010 at 09:48 PM.
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Just checked on something today to satisfy my curiosity, and I think I may have another small reason that Scion sales (at least the xB2/xD) are down: Fierce competition.
Kia Soul with their 2.0L engine, automatic, 100,000 mile warranty, side air bags, fancy alloy wheels, low profile tires, fancy sound system with subwoofer, external amp, and satellite, carpet floor mats, cargo liner, bluetooth, audio controls, and cruise control on the steering wheel and all the usual other little extras out-the-door for under $5900 with Vanilla as a trade-in. All that with 0.0% financing
That's actually a Hell of a bargain (even tempting), especially since Scion no longer has something in that niche.
Bottom line is it's a deal that Scion can't match, and that Kia is pushing hard at.
Besides the Hamsters are cute and catch people's attention...
Kia Soul with their 2.0L engine, automatic, 100,000 mile warranty, side air bags, fancy alloy wheels, low profile tires, fancy sound system with subwoofer, external amp, and satellite, carpet floor mats, cargo liner, bluetooth, audio controls, and cruise control on the steering wheel and all the usual other little extras out-the-door for under $5900 with Vanilla as a trade-in. All that with 0.0% financing
That's actually a Hell of a bargain (even tempting), especially since Scion no longer has something in that niche.
Bottom line is it's a deal that Scion can't match, and that Kia is pushing hard at.
Besides the Hamsters are cute and catch people's attention...
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And thats why I dont shout and try to tell toyota anything If they dont make the product I am looking for on the next car, then I wont buy from them. That is what they hear, not a bunch of people on a forum shouting. Especially when half of those whining about the previous models (tC, xb.. all of them) have baseless arguments. The original offerings were exactly what they intended to be, no more, no less. And it worked for Toyota, hence the original sales. The Scion line has been great cars. If they stop being what people want, they wont buy them (myself included). I am not a brand fanboy, so if I dont buy Toyota next time it isnt like it is some earth shattering point I am making. I like my two toyota products and I like the trusty old saturn I have had forever (Which still has not let me down.. ever). I will probably be looking to replace it as a winter car at some point with an older toyota pickup (so not new). I will also be looking for a good project car for the track at some point as well. It will be RWD and buildable.. so again, not new.
As far as Kia and Hyundai, they have done nothing so far but prove the "initial" quality is up, which means nothing other than they will get peoples attention up front. They could be great cars, or the worst cars ever built as they were in the past, but the proof is in the pudding, aka when they start getting a few models that most drivers have put 100,000 + miles on without major issues. Judging quality of a car at 20,000 - 30,000 etc miles means it can live through its initial warranty.. not that it is a reliable car. So we will see. And if they make something I like that is worth a crap next time I am looking, then I would consider them.
And the quote above my post is as true as can be, especially for those that used to praise their Scion, bought something else, then keep coming back to bash how crappy Scion is and talk up their new ride. Never have I seen this so much than on this forum... but there is a high percentage of younger buyers on here, so that is to be expected I guess.
And poor sales do not equal a crappy product. They may equal a product that doesnt meet what that generation of buyers are looking for, but the product in and of itself could be just fine. Like I said, this car does everything it was meant to do pretty reliably so far. It may not fit the wants of the market now, and it should go if so and be replaced by something else. But any complaints that it is "Slow" are just stupid, for example, since it was obviously not built to be "Fast" (nor was any of its class). I think the dumbest thing buyers do is buy something based off an assumption that it is something it is not, even after a test drive, magazine tests, etc. IF you bought this car thinking it was a sports car, your thinking was the crappy part, not the car Not aimed at anyone in particular.. just observations over the years. It must suck to never be completely satisfied because of unrealistic expectations!
If they dont make the product I am looking for on the next car, then I wont buy from them. That is what they hear, not a bunch of people on a forum shouting. Especially when half of those whining about the previous models (tC, xb.. all of them) have baseless arguments. The original offerings were exactly what they intended to be, no more, no less. And it worked for Toyota, hence the original sales. The Scion line has been great cars. If they stop being what people want, they wont buy them (myself included). I am not a brand fanboy, so if I dont buy Toyota next time it isnt like it is some earth shattering point I am making. I like my two toyota products and I like the trusty old saturn I have had forever (Which still has not let me down.. ever). I will probably be looking to replace it as a winter car at some point with an older toyota pickup (so not new). I will also be looking for a good project car for the track at some point as well. It will be RWD and buildable.. so again, not new. As far as Kia and Hyundai, they have done nothing so far but prove the "initial" quality is up, which means nothing other than they will get peoples attention up front. They could be great cars, or the worst cars ever built as they were in the past, but the proof is in the pudding, aka when they start getting a few models that most drivers have put 100,000 + miles on without major issues. Judging quality of a car at 20,000 - 30,000 etc miles means it can live through its initial warranty.. not that it is a reliable car. So we will see. And if they make something I like that is worth a crap next time I am looking, then I would consider them.
And the quote above my post is as true as can be, especially for those that used to praise their Scion, bought something else, then keep coming back to bash how crappy Scion is and talk up their new ride. Never have I seen this so much than on this forum... but there is a high percentage of younger buyers on here, so that is to be expected I guess.
And poor sales do not equal a crappy product. They may equal a product that doesnt meet what that generation of buyers are looking for, but the product in and of itself could be just fine. Like I said, this car does everything it was meant to do pretty reliably so far. It may not fit the wants of the market now, and it should go if so and be replaced by something else. But any complaints that it is "Slow" are just stupid, for example, since it was obviously not built to be "Fast" (nor was any of its class). I think the dumbest thing buyers do is buy something based off an assumption that it is something it is not, even after a test drive, magazine tests, etc. IF you bought this car thinking it was a sports car, your thinking was the crappy part, not the car
Not aimed at anyone in particular.. just observations over the years. It must suck to never be completely satisfied because of unrealistic expectations!1) I am not a kid
2) The Edsel was a good car
3) Scion made great cars
4) I put 150k on a Sonata and 127k on an XB
5) Scions were/are built well
6) here is to hoping things get better
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Statistics: "The mathematics of the collection, organization, and interpretation of numerical data, especially the analysis of population characteristics by inference from sampling." or "numerical data."
from http://www.thefreedictionary.com/statistics
from http://www.thefreedictionary.com/statistics
I hope Scion can come up with some products to save the brand I like their approach and hope to purchase more vehicles from them, but if I can get more for my money I will shop around.
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I have had Kia products as rentals at first I did not even want to drive one, but after I did I realized the build quality is much higher than in the past. The Spectra in particular was comparable to a Civic. Two issues, The 100,000 mile warrantee is not transferable which sucks, and the depreciation is still horrible, but better than it was.
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I agree with your definition "The Mathematics collection, organization and interpretation of numerical data" show me the math. We have no idea where the data came from. I have taken several stats courses for my Undergrad and Masters Degree. The numbers mentioned above are statements not backed up by math, research, or specific data. That is all I am trying to say. The fluctuations are also huge from 25 to 36 year old. I agree with you that most likely the tC had the youngest age group of buyers, but it would be nice to see or find official data. The data is the important part garbage in garbage out. The sad thing is Toyota can easily publish this but from the few minutes I took I could not find anything official.
I hope Scion can come up with some products to save the brand I like their approach and hope to purchase more vehicles from them, but if I can get more for my money I will shop around.
I hope Scion can come up with some products to save the brand I like their approach and hope to purchase more vehicles from them, but if I can get more for my money I will shop around.
But fortunately, the insurance data (premium prices) would suggest the facts are online with their claims. I was just appalled that someone made a baseless claim that only "blue hairs" bought scions, when do data or claims support it. I'll take toyota's word that they did their research over someone's small and insignificant observations.
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I can't tell you how many times I spoke to salespeople, club leaders and Scion corp. people that the Gen 1 and Gen 2 xB models are far apart and appeal to two different groups that have some but not much overlap.
Further, the Gen 1 xB, if slightly refined (better suspension and maybe a bit more horses under the hood,) rather than completely redone, was destined to become the 60s VW Beetle of the new generation in that it has a unique profile, a modest price and generates excitement.
What did corporate do? Did they refine it? - Nope! - They had a long term winner in their midst and they dropped it after only a few years.
Further, the Gen 1 xB, if slightly refined (better suspension and maybe a bit more horses under the hood,) rather than completely redone, was destined to become the 60s VW Beetle of the new generation in that it has a unique profile, a modest price and generates excitement.
What did corporate do? Did they refine it? - Nope! - They had a long term winner in their midst and they dropped it after only a few years.
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I can't tell you how many times I spoke to salespeople, club leaders and Scion corp. people that the Gen 1 and Gen 2 xB models are far apart and appeal to two different groups that have some but not much overlap.
Further, the Gen 1 xB, if slightly refined (better suspension and maybe a bit more horses under the hood,) rather than completely redone, was destined to become the 60s VW Beetle of the new generation in that it has a unique profile, a modest price and generates excitement.
What did corporate do? Did they refine it? - Nope! - They had a long term winner in their midst and they dropped it after only a few years.
Further, the Gen 1 xB, if slightly refined (better suspension and maybe a bit more horses under the hood,) rather than completely redone, was destined to become the 60s VW Beetle of the new generation in that it has a unique profile, a modest price and generates excitement.
What did corporate do? Did they refine it? - Nope! - They had a long term winner in their midst and they dropped it after only a few years.
The new one was the same size, retained the small exterior/massive interior design, and the same engine size (appropriate for a City Car/UUV), but added desirable features such as more sound deadening, better sound system layout, upgraded controls and features, side airbags, reclining/sliding rear seats, and a snappier design overall - actually appears to be the basis for the much larger Scion xB2 exterior design - in the smaller City Car niche.
They also expanded the distribution of that particular vehicle design boldly into the rest of the world, both left-hand and right-hand drive, under at least 4 different names. Except NOT in the US market where we got a considerably larger, heavier, bigger engined highway machine instead of the follow-on City Car.
As I've said many times, bring in the legitimate descendant (scion) of the original bB/xB and I would pre-order it tomorrow morning.
One of the current Toyota bB variants under one of its other names, the Subaru DEX...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca442e81kMg
Last edited by Tomas; Jun 15, 2010 at 06:58 PM.
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ok I skimmed the majority of what has been said. And I really don't feel like quoting or directing. So I apologize, in advance, for any repetition. However I wanted to mention a few things
Ok the Majority of the arguments are that Sales have slumped due to the ecomomy. That is partly true. Because of waning sales, manufacturers have changed gears and were forced to create incentives that are extremely competetive. Even Toyota has kept up insane incentives that they normally would have stopped a few months ago. Obviously to revitalize the brand sales, due to the bad press. Even internal incentives forced sales people to flip Scion buyers into Toyotas. Normally this wouldn't have been done, or is not supposed to be done, but rather than possibly lose a sale to a kid and his family, why not appeal to the parents interest, than the kid's, to get them to buy a corolla over a tC. Unfortunately that has happened...A LOT!
Not to mention what other brands are doing. They jumped on the unique B segment cars that Scion had redefined, thus creating vehicles like the Soul, Cube, and Koup. Whereas the Soul is primarily an xB competitor, the overall perception of value IS better than the xD. However I don't agree that the Warranty is any better or worse. Afterall the dealer is going to push the "Extended" / "Full Coverage" Warranty on you, because as well all know, it isn't the Engine, Drivetrain, or Transmission we're worried about in today's cars. It's everything else. The electronics. And the Full Coverage Warranty would cover all the electronics and such. An 8yr/125,000 mile warranty MSRP's for $1700 for the xD/xB and $1925 for the tC. All things being equal in price, a dealership would still push the "Extended" So what good is this "Superior" warranty if they're still going to sell the Extended? And coverage would still vary per buyer. For instance what good is 10 years, if you're going to hit 100,000 miles in 6-7 years? What good is the warranty is you're going to lease, anyway? Etc etc. That's is why Toyota hasn't changed their bazse coverages, because it really doen't matter, because every situation may be different.
Now I have to talk about this because these 2 vehicels were mentioned. In comparo to the Soul, the xD has similar numbers. The Kia may be a bit more powerful, but they are a heavier vehicle, where the xD was meant to be a more economical choice, in the long run. (better MPG Soul = 24/30/27, xD = 27/33/30) However...Based on the Payment estimators:
Kia Soul+ Automatic is $16,890. The Scion xD with BlueTooth and 16" Alloys is $17,464. A different of $574. Then let's compare Warranties. All things being equal, assuming Kia offers a factory backed warranty upgrade, like Toyota (I couldn't find info on www.kiamotorfinancial.com) And the warranty is, as stated before, at $2000 for a 10yr/100,000 mile coverage Versus Scion's 8yr/125,000 for 1700, a $300 difference. Both vehicles are now only a Total of $274 difference. Sure the Soul is bigger inside. But being that the price difference is $274, Scion is still the CR better buy, the more reliable brand, better retention in value, and will sell or trade better in the long run (was trying to do an Edmunds TCO, but everytime I'd select the soul, but nothing was availble...yet). AND it's better on gas! So now it's just subjective styling. But Scion Does offer a better College Grad/Military Rebate than Kia. BTW I did not add the Armrest because the Sould doesn't have one either.
Ok I rambled on enough. There is more that I have observed, but I have to get back to work.
Ok the Majority of the arguments are that Sales have slumped due to the ecomomy. That is partly true. Because of waning sales, manufacturers have changed gears and were forced to create incentives that are extremely competetive. Even Toyota has kept up insane incentives that they normally would have stopped a few months ago. Obviously to revitalize the brand sales, due to the bad press. Even internal incentives forced sales people to flip Scion buyers into Toyotas. Normally this wouldn't have been done, or is not supposed to be done, but rather than possibly lose a sale to a kid and his family, why not appeal to the parents interest, than the kid's, to get them to buy a corolla over a tC. Unfortunately that has happened...A LOT!
Not to mention what other brands are doing. They jumped on the unique B segment cars that Scion had redefined, thus creating vehicles like the Soul, Cube, and Koup. Whereas the Soul is primarily an xB competitor, the overall perception of value IS better than the xD. However I don't agree that the Warranty is any better or worse. Afterall the dealer is going to push the "Extended" / "Full Coverage" Warranty on you, because as well all know, it isn't the Engine, Drivetrain, or Transmission we're worried about in today's cars. It's everything else. The electronics. And the Full Coverage Warranty would cover all the electronics and such. An 8yr/125,000 mile warranty MSRP's for $1700 for the xD/xB and $1925 for the tC. All things being equal in price, a dealership would still push the "Extended" So what good is this "Superior" warranty if they're still going to sell the Extended? And coverage would still vary per buyer. For instance what good is 10 years, if you're going to hit 100,000 miles in 6-7 years? What good is the warranty is you're going to lease, anyway? Etc etc. That's is why Toyota hasn't changed their bazse coverages, because it really doen't matter, because every situation may be different.
Now I have to talk about this because these 2 vehicels were mentioned. In comparo to the Soul, the xD has similar numbers. The Kia may be a bit more powerful, but they are a heavier vehicle, where the xD was meant to be a more economical choice, in the long run. (better MPG Soul = 24/30/27, xD = 27/33/30) However...Based on the Payment estimators:
Kia Soul+ Automatic is $16,890. The Scion xD with BlueTooth and 16" Alloys is $17,464. A different of $574. Then let's compare Warranties. All things being equal, assuming Kia offers a factory backed warranty upgrade, like Toyota (I couldn't find info on www.kiamotorfinancial.com) And the warranty is, as stated before, at $2000 for a 10yr/100,000 mile coverage Versus Scion's 8yr/125,000 for 1700, a $300 difference. Both vehicles are now only a Total of $274 difference. Sure the Soul is bigger inside. But being that the price difference is $274, Scion is still the CR better buy, the more reliable brand, better retention in value, and will sell or trade better in the long run (was trying to do an Edmunds TCO, but everytime I'd select the soul, but nothing was availble...yet). AND it's better on gas! So now it's just subjective styling. But Scion Does offer a better College Grad/Military Rebate than Kia. BTW I did not add the Armrest because the Sould doesn't have one either.
Ok I rambled on enough. There is more that I have observed, but I have to get back to work.
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I can't tell you how many times I spoke to salespeople, club leaders and Scion corp. people that the Gen 1 and Gen 2 xB models are far apart and appeal to two different groups that have some but not much overlap.
Further, the Gen 1 xB, if slightly refined (better suspension and maybe a bit more horses under the hood,) rather than completely redone, was destined to become the 60s VW Beetle of the new generation in that it has a unique profile, a modest price and generates excitement.
What did corporate do? Did they refine it? - Nope! - They had a long term winner in their midst and they dropped it after only a few years.
Further, the Gen 1 xB, if slightly refined (better suspension and maybe a bit more horses under the hood,) rather than completely redone, was destined to become the 60s VW Beetle of the new generation in that it has a unique profile, a modest price and generates excitement.
What did corporate do? Did they refine it? - Nope! - They had a long term winner in their midst and they dropped it after only a few years.
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yes, which are, technically, older engines, and are not in the US market. And will probably have to be redesigned to meet new US EPA standards. And would have to be altered in some way in order to be matched to current Toyota engine and transmission configurations. (Do the 1.8L 2ZR-FE & the 2.0L 1TR-FE or 3ZR-FE share the same engine mounts? I don't know.) Then comes developement and tuning, adn reconfiguring of engine plants...yadda yadda bs. Although it does look like the 3ZR-FE looks like it could possibly be a re-stroked/upped displacement of the 2ZR. I do feel that the 2.0L should just replace the 1.8L, but who am I to say? The thing is how much would it actually cost to change everything? Just because an engine exists doesn't mean cars can be changed, just like that, right? so there would have to be time of evaluation, testing, modifications, alterations, plant changes, vehicle redesigns and reprogramming....grr...this is making my head hurt...blech....
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yes, which are, technically, older engines, and are not in the US market. And will probably have to be redesigned to meet new US EPA standards. And would have to be altered in some way in order to be matched to current Toyota engine and transmission configurations. (Do the 1.8L 2ZR-FE & the 2.0L 1TR-FE or 3ZR-FE share the same engine mounts? I don't know.) Then comes developement and tuning, adn reconfiguring of engine plants...yadda yadda bs. Although it does look like the 3ZR-FE looks like it could possibly be a re-stroked/upped displacement of the 2ZR. I do feel that the 2.0L should just replace the 1.8L, but who am I to say? The thing is how much would it actually cost to change everything? Just because an engine exists doesn't mean cars can be changed, just like that, right? so there would have to be time of evaluation, testing, modifications, alterations, plant changes, vehicle redesigns and reprogramming....grr...this is making my head hurt...blech....
The US based xB2 and tC use the 2AZ (Camry/Avensis platforms) which (to my knowledge, but I haven't checked) does not have any of these engines I talked about available.
But back to the point, if they did as you mentioned, kept the platform on the original base, and dropped in a 2ZR, they'd have a winner. A 3ZR would be even better, but it probably wouldn't fit. You know, if the xD didn't look so much like a Dodge Nitro, it would be a massive hit. Just look at the Versa. . . and that engine sucks (imo)!
Last edited by djct_watt; Jun 18, 2010 at 06:06 PM.
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From: What's in your Box...
ok I skimmed the majority of what has been said. And I really don't feel like quoting or directing. So I apologize, in advance, for any repetition. However I wanted to mention a few things
Ok the Majority of the arguments are that Sales have slumped due to the ecomomy. That is partly true. Because of waning sales, manufacturers have changed gears and were forced to create incentives that are extremely competetive. Even Toyota has kept up insane incentives that they normally would have stopped a few months ago. Obviously to revitalize the brand sales, due to the bad press. Even internal incentives forced sales people to flip Scion buyers into Toyotas. Normally this wouldn't have been done, or is not supposed to be done, but rather than possibly lose a sale to a kid and his family, why not appeal to the parents interest, than the kid's, to get them to buy a corolla over a tC. Unfortunately that has happened...A LOT!
Not to mention what other brands are doing. They jumped on the unique B segment cars that Scion had redefined, thus creating vehicles like the Soul, Cube, and Koup. Whereas the Soul is primarily an xB competitor, the overall perception of value IS better than the xD. However I don't agree that the Warranty is any better or worse. Afterall the dealer is going to push the "Extended" / "Full Coverage" Warranty on you, because as well all know, it isn't the Engine, Drivetrain, or Transmission we're worried about in today's cars. It's everything else. The electronics. And the Full Coverage Warranty would cover all the electronics and such. An 8yr/125,000 mile warranty MSRP's for $1700 for the xD/xB and $1925 for the tC. All things being equal in price, a dealership would still push the "Extended" So what good is this "Superior" warranty if they're still going to sell the Extended? And coverage would still vary per buyer. For instance what good is 10 years, if you're going to hit 100,000 miles in 6-7 years? What good is the warranty is you're going to lease, anyway? Etc etc. That's is why Toyota hasn't changed their bazse coverages, because it really doen't matter, because every situation may be different.
Now I have to talk about this because these 2 vehicels were mentioned. In comparo to the Soul, the xD has similar numbers. The Kia may be a bit more powerful, but they are a heavier vehicle, where the xD was meant to be a more economical choice, in the long run. (better MPG Soul = 24/30/27, xD = 27/33/30) However...Based on the Payment estimators:
Kia Soul+ Automatic is $16,890. The Scion xD with BlueTooth and 16" Alloys is $17,464. A different of $574. Then let's compare Warranties. All things being equal, assuming Kia offers a factory backed warranty upgrade, like Toyota (I couldn't find info on www.kiamotorfinancial.com) And the warranty is, as stated before, at $2000 for a 10yr/100,000 mile coverage Versus Scion's 8yr/125,000 for 1700, a $300 difference. Both vehicles are now only a Total of $274 difference. Sure the Soul is bigger inside. But being that the price difference is $274, Scion is still the CR better buy, the more reliable brand, better retention in value, and will sell or trade better in the long run (was trying to do an Edmunds TCO, but everytime I'd select the soul, but nothing was availble...yet). AND it's better on gas! So now it's just subjective styling. But Scion Does offer a better College Grad/Military Rebate than Kia. BTW I did not add the Armrest because the Sould doesn't have one either.
Ok I rambled on enough. There is more that I have observed, but I have to get back to work.
Ok the Majority of the arguments are that Sales have slumped due to the ecomomy. That is partly true. Because of waning sales, manufacturers have changed gears and were forced to create incentives that are extremely competetive. Even Toyota has kept up insane incentives that they normally would have stopped a few months ago. Obviously to revitalize the brand sales, due to the bad press. Even internal incentives forced sales people to flip Scion buyers into Toyotas. Normally this wouldn't have been done, or is not supposed to be done, but rather than possibly lose a sale to a kid and his family, why not appeal to the parents interest, than the kid's, to get them to buy a corolla over a tC. Unfortunately that has happened...A LOT!
Not to mention what other brands are doing. They jumped on the unique B segment cars that Scion had redefined, thus creating vehicles like the Soul, Cube, and Koup. Whereas the Soul is primarily an xB competitor, the overall perception of value IS better than the xD. However I don't agree that the Warranty is any better or worse. Afterall the dealer is going to push the "Extended" / "Full Coverage" Warranty on you, because as well all know, it isn't the Engine, Drivetrain, or Transmission we're worried about in today's cars. It's everything else. The electronics. And the Full Coverage Warranty would cover all the electronics and such. An 8yr/125,000 mile warranty MSRP's for $1700 for the xD/xB and $1925 for the tC. All things being equal in price, a dealership would still push the "Extended" So what good is this "Superior" warranty if they're still going to sell the Extended? And coverage would still vary per buyer. For instance what good is 10 years, if you're going to hit 100,000 miles in 6-7 years? What good is the warranty is you're going to lease, anyway? Etc etc. That's is why Toyota hasn't changed their bazse coverages, because it really doen't matter, because every situation may be different.
Now I have to talk about this because these 2 vehicels were mentioned. In comparo to the Soul, the xD has similar numbers. The Kia may be a bit more powerful, but they are a heavier vehicle, where the xD was meant to be a more economical choice, in the long run. (better MPG Soul = 24/30/27, xD = 27/33/30) However...Based on the Payment estimators:
Kia Soul+ Automatic is $16,890. The Scion xD with BlueTooth and 16" Alloys is $17,464. A different of $574. Then let's compare Warranties. All things being equal, assuming Kia offers a factory backed warranty upgrade, like Toyota (I couldn't find info on www.kiamotorfinancial.com) And the warranty is, as stated before, at $2000 for a 10yr/100,000 mile coverage Versus Scion's 8yr/125,000 for 1700, a $300 difference. Both vehicles are now only a Total of $274 difference. Sure the Soul is bigger inside. But being that the price difference is $274, Scion is still the CR better buy, the more reliable brand, better retention in value, and will sell or trade better in the long run (was trying to do an Edmunds TCO, but everytime I'd select the soul, but nothing was availble...yet). AND it's better on gas! So now it's just subjective styling. But Scion Does offer a better College Grad/Military Rebate than Kia. BTW I did not add the Armrest because the Sould doesn't have one either.
Ok I rambled on enough. There is more that I have observed, but I have to get back to work.
A better comparison is the Soul versus the XB2...Soul kills it
Also the better XD comparison may be versus the Forte sedan or 2011 Optima possibly?
either way if they had a version of the new bB here I would be driving it today instead of my jetta tdi
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(I've bought fixed price/pure price since '83. Aside from the two Scions which are pure price, the rest of 'em were "fleet" pricing where all the numbers are on the table, and there was no need to haggle - the profit margin allowed was by contract. I much prefer that, and WILL NOT play the haggle game. A dealer has one opportunity to give me their best price. If I like it I buy, if I don't I walk.)
^^ hey Tom... I know this post of yours was from a few weeks ago now, but when I came across it.. I had to quote it. I could NOT agree more. That's how I like doing business with vehicle purchases. All the cards on the table, I know what the vehicle I'm looking to purchase is worth, evaluate the condition (if not new) of their vehicle, how much they are asking for it, and how much I'm willing to pay after considering all the facts/factors. If the deal works great, if not, I take my business elsewhere. It doesn't get any more simple then that. Their time is valueable, my time is valueable, so no need in wasting either. IMHO.
Purchasing a vehicle (especially from a dealer) isn't anywhere near the rocket science they want you to believe it is.
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The US based xB2 and tC use the 2AZ (Camry/Avensis platforms) which (to my knowledge, but I haven't checked) does not have any of these engines I talked about available.
But back to the point, if they did as you mentioned, kept the platform on the original base, and dropped in a 2ZR, they'd have a winner. A 3ZR would be even better, but it probably wouldn't fit. You know, if the xD didn't look so much like a Dodge Nitro, it would be a massive hit. Just look at the Versa. . . and that engine sucks (imo)!
But back to the point, if they did as you mentioned, kept the platform on the original base, and dropped in a 2ZR, they'd have a winner. A 3ZR would be even better, but it probably wouldn't fit. You know, if the xD didn't look so much like a Dodge Nitro, it would be a massive hit. Just look at the Versa. . . and that engine sucks (imo)!
Last edited by Mouse; Jun 21, 2010 at 06:00 PM.
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No problem on the old comment, Mouse, it still makes sense.
As part of my keeping up with what is currently available to me should something bad happen to Vanilla, I've hit a Scion, a Kia, and a Nissan dealership over the past two weeks to check on possible replacement vehicles.
The Nissan and Scion dealerships were predictable. Nissan was totally wed to the whole "let's see what we can do for you" barn dance, and was unable to even give a firm price without running back and forth to the tower (I walked, as I told them I would ahead of time). The Scion dealership was as simple as buying a quart of milk: I told them what I wanted, they told me what it cost. Done.
The Kia dealership (CarPros) was interesting. I told them I didn't haggle, that I gave a dealership one shot at giving me their best price, and if they pulled out a "four square" sheet, I'd tear it in two and hand it back. The salesman immediately put his four square back in the desk, invited me to come to the tower with him and got the best offer, in writing, and gave it to me - one shot (and it really was a very, very good offer). The manager even deciphered some of the coding in the random numbers at the bottom of the page for me, which included not only profit margin, but the $472 hold-back amount the dealer would eventually get.
Dealerships CAN sell things at a single honest price, but they don't like to - it cramps their style and eliminates the opportunities to confuse the customer into paying more than they should.
(That Kia Soul was tempting - price was great, and included features were head and shoulders above the others. Sadly, it was still a Kia. HOWEVER, if something killed Vanilla, I'd be joining the Kia Hamsters, driving a Soul...)
As part of my keeping up with what is currently available to me should something bad happen to Vanilla, I've hit a Scion, a Kia, and a Nissan dealership over the past two weeks to check on possible replacement vehicles.
The Nissan and Scion dealerships were predictable. Nissan was totally wed to the whole "let's see what we can do for you" barn dance, and was unable to even give a firm price without running back and forth to the tower (I walked, as I told them I would ahead of time). The Scion dealership was as simple as buying a quart of milk: I told them what I wanted, they told me what it cost. Done.
The Kia dealership (CarPros) was interesting. I told them I didn't haggle, that I gave a dealership one shot at giving me their best price, and if they pulled out a "four square" sheet, I'd tear it in two and hand it back. The salesman immediately put his four square back in the desk, invited me to come to the tower with him and got the best offer, in writing, and gave it to me - one shot (and it really was a very, very good offer). The manager even deciphered some of the coding in the random numbers at the bottom of the page for me, which included not only profit margin, but the $472 hold-back amount the dealer would eventually get.
Dealerships CAN sell things at a single honest price, but they don't like to - it cramps their style and eliminates the opportunities to confuse the customer into paying more than they should.
(That Kia Soul was tempting - price was great, and included features were head and shoulders above the others. Sadly, it was still a Kia. HOWEVER, if something killed Vanilla, I'd be joining the Kia Hamsters, driving a Soul...)
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No problem on the old comment, Mouse, it still makes sense.
As part of my keeping up with what is currently available to me should something bad happen to Vanilla, I've hit a Scion, a Kia, and a Nissan dealership over the past two weeks to check on possible replacement vehicles.
The Nissan and Scion dealerships were predictable. Nissan was totally wed to the whole "let's see what we can do for you" barn dance, and was unable to even give a firm price without running back and forth to the tower (I walked, as I told them I would ahead of time). The Scion dealership was as simple as buying a quart of milk: I told them what I wanted, they told me what it cost. Done.
The Kia dealership (CarPros) was interesting. I told them I didn't haggle, that I gave a dealership one shot at giving me their best price, and if they pulled out a "four square" sheet, I'd tear it in two and hand it back. The salesman immediately put his four square back in the desk, invited me to come to the tower with him and got the best offer, in writing, and gave it to me - one shot (and it really was a very, very good offer). The manager even deciphered some of the coding in the random numbers at the bottom of the page for me, which included not only profit margin, but the $472 hold-back amount the dealer would eventually get.
Dealerships CAN sell things at a single honest price, but they don't like to - it cramps their style and eliminates the opportunities to confuse the customer into paying more than they should.
(That Kia Soul was tempting - price was great, and included features were head and shoulders above the others. Sadly, it was still a Kia. HOWEVER, if something killed Vanilla, I'd be joining the Kia Hamsters, driving a Soul...)
As part of my keeping up with what is currently available to me should something bad happen to Vanilla, I've hit a Scion, a Kia, and a Nissan dealership over the past two weeks to check on possible replacement vehicles.
The Nissan and Scion dealerships were predictable. Nissan was totally wed to the whole "let's see what we can do for you" barn dance, and was unable to even give a firm price without running back and forth to the tower (I walked, as I told them I would ahead of time). The Scion dealership was as simple as buying a quart of milk: I told them what I wanted, they told me what it cost. Done.
The Kia dealership (CarPros) was interesting. I told them I didn't haggle, that I gave a dealership one shot at giving me their best price, and if they pulled out a "four square" sheet, I'd tear it in two and hand it back. The salesman immediately put his four square back in the desk, invited me to come to the tower with him and got the best offer, in writing, and gave it to me - one shot (and it really was a very, very good offer). The manager even deciphered some of the coding in the random numbers at the bottom of the page for me, which included not only profit margin, but the $472 hold-back amount the dealer would eventually get.
Dealerships CAN sell things at a single honest price, but they don't like to - it cramps their style and eliminates the opportunities to confuse the customer into paying more than they should.
(That Kia Soul was tempting - price was great, and included features were head and shoulders above the others. Sadly, it was still a Kia. HOWEVER, if something killed Vanilla, I'd be joining the Kia Hamsters, driving a Soul...)
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Cool Tom...
I hear ya on the Scion dealer. I've bought my last 2 tC's brand new from my local Toyota dealer I've built a solid business relationship with over the past 15ish years. I've lived other places, but I've only bought new Toyotas/Scions from them. I'm out of the norm, like you, I also tend to keep my vehicles longer than the average person. Buy'em, take care of'em, pay'em off, and then they pay me back. I walk into my local Toyota/Scion dealer, bought my 4x4 Tacoma brand new from them. 8-9yrs later, 100k + on the odometer... so well maintained you could eat off the engine. I walk in to buy my first Scion. The owner himself comes down, says "hi", knows me, tells the salesman to give me full retail price for my truck and give me a good deal on the new one. Doesn't get any easier then that. lol.
That's cool to hear that you had a positive experience with the kia folks.
Only bad thing that has followed kia that I've seen is they claim to have the industry's best factory warranty... well technically that's true... but the other side is tons of customers that when it came time to needing warranty work done, they had to go though miles of red tape and jump through hoops to get kia to honour it.
I am a fan of the "Hamstars" as they call them. The commercials are just too damn funny. Especially the newest one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfJnqbudMzs
Granted some of it is a dig at some Toyota/Scion models... but still funny as hell to watch IMHO.
I hear ya on the Scion dealer. I've bought my last 2 tC's brand new from my local Toyota dealer I've built a solid business relationship with over the past 15ish years. I've lived other places, but I've only bought new Toyotas/Scions from them. I'm out of the norm, like you, I also tend to keep my vehicles longer than the average person. Buy'em, take care of'em, pay'em off, and then they pay me back. I walk into my local Toyota/Scion dealer, bought my 4x4 Tacoma brand new from them. 8-9yrs later, 100k + on the odometer... so well maintained you could eat off the engine. I walk in to buy my first Scion. The owner himself comes down, says "hi", knows me, tells the salesman to give me full retail price for my truck and give me a good deal on the new one. Doesn't get any easier then that. lol.
That's cool to hear that you had a positive experience with the kia folks.
Only bad thing that has followed kia that I've seen is they claim to have the industry's best factory warranty... well technically that's true... but the other side is tons of customers that when it came time to needing warranty work done, they had to go though miles of red tape and jump through hoops to get kia to honour it.
I am a fan of the "Hamstars" as they call them. The commercials are just too damn funny. Especially the newest one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfJnqbudMzs
Granted some of it is a dig at some Toyota/Scion models... but still funny as hell to watch IMHO.