Official Turbo FAQ with Electrical Guide
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DelMarVa
Joined: Aug 2006
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Originally Posted by IckyScion
Oh BTW - That thread you linked everyone to will nto work on the tC unless you have a stand-alone EMS and a load based dyno. For the other 90% of us out there, any partial throttle tune will be a waste of time and you can not keep up with how fast the ECU re-adjusts the tune to get it running the way it comes from the factory.
The reason that NO ONE SHOULD EVER TUNE THEIR CAR WITH A MAP HACK (ie afc, venom 400, or any of these systems that trick the ecu)
is because they can only tune fuel. I will get into why this is such a problem but it will be for a honda motor not a tc (only because i have not had the chance to work with one) but it is still the same general thing for not only a tc but also every internal combustion motor out there. Ok first a honda motor uses 240cc injectors from the factory. You are going to boost it so you buy some 440cc injectors. Now your injectors are almost twice the size as the stock ones and that means that each time the ecu tells those injectors to open it is squirting twice the ammount of fuel into the cylinder than before. Now at just idle your 15:1 AFR is down past 8:1 AFR and it can hardly even run. So you trick the ecu and tell it that it is sucking down WAY LESS air than it really is. You get it to a decent 13:1 AFR...... What most people dont realize is they just made their ecu move into a different "cell" and take the information from there. If the ecu sees less air (even if the motor is sucking down the same ammount) it will change the injector pulses and you will get a change in AFR but you will now also get a change in timing advance. Less air in the cylinder means a slower burn and theirfor the timming needs to be advanced to get the peak cylinder pressures in the right place. So what happened is you advance the timing a few degrees while fixing the AFR. I have seen some one create knock at idle by doing this. Even though this is not enough to really even affect your motor at idle this effect goes up exponetially as revs and boost go up. At 10 psi (relitive) the most the ecu will read is 14.7 (absolute) the difference between what the timming should look like at 14.7 MAP and 24.7 MAP is almost 10* retard at the 24.7 MAP or 10 psi(relitive). So in reality, at 10 psi your motor will be ADVANCED 10* over what it should be at. That is WAY over enough to cause detonation and catastrophic motor damage. So tuning with a map hack or telling someone how to do so is just... well.... idiotic. Especially as a parts distributor.
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Joined: Dec 2004
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From: Gilbert, AZ
You're neglecting to mention that tCs use a drive by wire system that renders a lot of the stand-alone ECUs USELESS unless you either figure out a way to convert your TB system to a cable, or if you program your stand-alone EMS to run a wired TB instead of a direct cable one.
We do not sell piggy back ECUs without any ingition control. We now INCLUDE our harnesses because we felt it's that necessary to be able to adjust that. Our systems can change fuel curves, yes by tricking the ECU, but can also control ingition MAPs (the right way). Our upcoming EMS is still being worked out so we can do partial throttle, WOT, and ingition. Oh yeah, no modification needed to the TB, and it will still cost less than any stand-alone system out there.
Is that more informative? I'm not trying to confuse people, but I left this subject vague for a reason. Please do not try to dig up details, because it will confuse people. You know a lot more about Hondas than you do the tC specifically. As I said, I left this vauge, let a professional tuner shop take care of this. Or you can use what companies like ours and ZPI do, because I know we spend quite some time on R&D. You think we would ship out our kits if we thought every motor would blow up a few months down the road?
I've been boosted for 10 months on a stock motor. From -10 degrees F to over 120 in AZ, from 6 psi to 11. I beat on my car daily and it's been fine. And I'm only using a basic piggy back with our tune, with ignition control.
We do not sell piggy back ECUs without any ingition control. We now INCLUDE our harnesses because we felt it's that necessary to be able to adjust that. Our systems can change fuel curves, yes by tricking the ECU, but can also control ingition MAPs (the right way). Our upcoming EMS is still being worked out so we can do partial throttle, WOT, and ingition. Oh yeah, no modification needed to the TB, and it will still cost less than any stand-alone system out there.
Is that more informative? I'm not trying to confuse people, but I left this subject vague for a reason. Please do not try to dig up details, because it will confuse people. You know a lot more about Hondas than you do the tC specifically. As I said, I left this vauge, let a professional tuner shop take care of this. Or you can use what companies like ours and ZPI do, because I know we spend quite some time on R&D. You think we would ship out our kits if we thought every motor would blow up a few months down the road?
I've been boosted for 10 months on a stock motor. From -10 degrees F to over 120 in AZ, from 6 psi to 11. I beat on my car daily and it's been fine. And I'm only using a basic piggy back with our tune, with ignition control.
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Joined: Dec 2004
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From: Gilbert, AZ
Originally Posted by IckyScion
NO ONE SHOULD EVER TUNE THEIR CAR WITH A MAP HACK[/u] (ie afc, venom 400, or any of these systems that trick the ecu)
If you buy the RIGHT product for your car it will work fine. A Venom 400 isn't a tuning device btw. SAFCs do not touch ignition, only fuel. DSM guys with upgraded fuel pumps and other components only need that because the stock timing is fine for a little more boost and fuel. Greddy Emanages and Emanage Ultimates can tune ALMOST to the extent of a stand-alone EMS, but without the partial throttle tuning.
There are a TON of options out there. The idea is to call a reputable company or shop, tell them what your project is and what your looking to do or get out of it, and seek their suggestion. If ALL those parts were catastrophic, they wouldn't remain on the market, neverless the huge success thev've been over the years.
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From: Littleton, CO
There are a TON of options out there. The idea is to call a reputable company or shop, tell them what your project is and what your looking to do or get out of it, and seek their suggestion. If ALL those parts were catastrophic, they wouldn't remain on the market, neverless the huge success thev've been over the years.
Why is it that Evos, DSMs, and SRT4s love them so much then?
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" want a 3”! NO my son. 3” exhausts are only beneficial at a certain point."
haha great post and a great sense of humor. Thanks for your support in the Scion community
oh by the way Joe I was thinking of getting a flywheel, but now that you mention it. I do alot of driving to meet with my clients and so forth, I guess I don't need one. However what clutch do you recomend if I wanted a 300WHP application? at the same time not kill my legs after hours of driving. Thanks agian
haha great post and a great sense of humor. Thanks for your support in the Scion community
oh by the way Joe I was thinking of getting a flywheel, but now that you mention it. I do alot of driving to meet with my clients and so forth, I guess I don't need one. However what clutch do you recomend if I wanted a 300WHP application? at the same time not kill my legs after hours of driving. Thanks agian
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From: Gilbert, AZ
From personal experience I'd definately recommend the ACT street clutch. It's held up to a ton of abuse and holds some serious power. The clutch is pretty stiff, at least compared to stock, but I definately got used to it and wouldn't want it any other way.
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From: Gilbert, AZ
Originally Posted by IckyScion
There are a TON of options out there. The idea is to call a reputable company or shop, tell them what your project is and what your looking to do or get out of it, and seek their suggestion. If ALL those parts were catastrophic, they wouldn't remain on the market, neverless the huge success thev've been over the years.
Why is it that Evos, DSMs, and SRT4s love them so much then?
For the second comment...
You have to understand this is a basic guide and not a tuning DIY. The SAFC IS a great part for certain applications. Some people only need a small fuel tune and nothing more, so some of the parts we sell, as well as HUNDREDs of other tuner shops, are more than enough. The Emanage/Ultimate/Unichip aren't bad options for a daily driver. Not all fo us are looking for making max power. A lot of people here need their car for work, family, or school, and simply want a cost effective, minimal down time part and installation so they can be on their merry way. I never said a stand-alone wasn't ever needed, I never said a piggy-back is all you need. All I did was leave this part vague and you blew this out of proportion making it seem like I'm trying to sell some cheaper products just to make an extra buck.
I've backed up everything I've said. Less than 5% of the boosted tCs on this board are running a stand-alone EMS. The majority of our cars here are running great. So before you say that a pigggy back for our car is catastrophic, please look on all the threads here and see what the actual results are, not the speculated ones.
hop on it son!
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From: Gilbert, AZ
Originally Posted by lightwarp
since we are on the engine management topic, does that mean if i rarely get on WOT (not 3/4 or 7/
i don't have to worry about tuning? if i am using emange?
i don't have to worry about tuning? if i am using emange?
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I really appreciate all the info and time. I saw found this article, don't know about its accuracy
http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/disp...r=introduction
http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/disp...r=introduction
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Not a bad post at all man. Mazda does know their stuff and it's been showing on the SCCA races.
Bump due to recent and MANY posts concering some turbo parts and technology. Hopefully these threads keep the posts to more relevant and uncovered subjects.
Enjoy!
Bump due to recent and MANY posts concering some turbo parts and technology. Hopefully these threads keep the posts to more relevant and uncovered subjects.
Enjoy!
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Scionetics
KAD
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,936
From: Western NY
Originally Posted by Joe_Dezod
Not a bad post at all man. Mazda does know their stuff and it's been showing on the SCCA races.
Bump due to recent and MANY posts concering some turbo parts and technology. Hopefully these threads keep the posts to more relevant and uncovered subjects. Enjoy!
Bump due to recent and MANY posts concering some turbo parts and technology. Hopefully these threads keep the posts to more relevant and uncovered subjects.
Enjoy!
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 92
wait, so i have another question.
is there like an "optimal" time for throwing on a turbo?
just for example, in a few years when i can actually buy a used scion, would it be alrite to turbo it? or should it go on soon after you buy it new?
is there like an "optimal" time for throwing on a turbo?
just for example, in a few years when i can actually buy a used scion, would it be alrite to turbo it? or should it go on soon after you buy it new?
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Scionetics
KAD
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,936
From: Western NY
Originally Posted by beach808boyz
wait, so i have another question.
is there like an "optimal" time for throwing on a turbo?
just for example, in a few years when i can actually buy a used scion, would it be alrite to turbo it? or should it go on soon after you buy it new?
is there like an "optimal" time for throwing on a turbo?
just for example, in a few years when i can actually buy a used scion, would it be alrite to turbo it? or should it go on soon after you buy it new?
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Scion Evolution
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,777
From: Orlando, Fl//Scion FR-S
I believe that if the engine is in good condition, it is a candidate for F/I. Very first thing when adding a turbo, I would do a compression check on all cylinder and check is not burning oil. Am I correct?
