2200fire

Ok this thread is about the SUPERCHARGED tC’s competition within its own class. Which is 2 door boosted 4cyl coupes under 23k.

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The Saturn ION-Redline comes with a 2.0L ecotec blown engine pushing 200hp. Check out dynos on this motor, absolutely awesome- completely crashes into the rev limiter at the end of every dyno run= ecu upgrade and opens up huge possibilities in both the redline and cobalt ss.

From sport compact car
“That supercharged engine is a 2.0-liter version of the Ecotec four-cylinder, which is now powering all of GM's small cars in normally aspirated 2.2-liter form. The Performance Division destroked the engine, lowered its compression ratio from 10:1 to 9.5:1, bolted on a Roots-type supercharger (making 12.5 pounds of boost), stuffed in a Laminova air-to-water intercooler, and underrated it at 200 hp and 149 lb-ft of torque. That's right, they underrated it. Our Dynojet revealed the truth, which is an impressive 197 hp at the wheels at 6450 rpm and 169 lb-ft at 5250 rpm. And it would be more if GM's engineers had more time. The engine crashes into its rev limiter at 6450 rpm while it's still building power.
At the dragstrip, the tall gearing really hurts the car's performance. It's a heavy car at 2,960 pounds, but with nearly 200 hp at the wheels, it should be quicker than it is.
It does ride nicely on the highway, and it does manage respectable numbers at the test track. Our test car circled the skidpad at .85g, which is equal to the performance of a Dodge SRT-4, and ran through our slalom at 68.4 mph, which is exactly what the last SVT Focus we tested could manage. But it also reacts sluggishly compared to its competition due to its long 103.5-inch wheelbase, and it understeers more than we'd like. Drive the car hard and it just feels bigger than every other car in its class, which it is--11.6-inches longer than a Subaru WRX.
Still, on fast, wide-open canyon roads, you can drive the Red Line faster than we originally gave it credit for, that is as long as you left-foot brake to control the front suspension. If you do, the Red Line is easy to place where you want. If you don't, it unloads the front tires and pushes like a tugboat. The brakes are good. Four-wheel discs. ABS. Sixty-to-zero mph in 121 feet with very little fade.
Other good points are an overall high level of refinement, a roomy interior for four and impressive durability.“
Sport Compact Car

REDLINE: from yahoo autos
Price: $19,820
Weight: 2590
Hp: 200
Tq: 200
0-60: 6.3
¼: 14.8 (number by car and driver and from what I hear they didn’t even test it, it was an estimate. Saturn people are saying low to mid 14’s)

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COBALT SS:

The cobalt has the same engine as the redline- 2.0L eco with 12.5 psi on a roots type blower. but will have a cobalt specific 5 spd close ratio tranny (badly matched trans. On redline is major concern)

From edmunds
“The Chevrolet Cobalt's interior design should go a long way toward justifying price tags north of $15,000. Designers have crafted a simple, uncluttered cabin environment dressed up on some models with simulated wood trim or metallic-look accents. Chrome-ringed gauges and door release handles lend an upscale appearance. Heated leather upholstery is available, as well as niceties such as a power sunroof, OnStar telematics, and XM satellite radio.
Our initial impressions, based on the information provided and cursory examination from outside of the Chevrolet Cobalt: styling is spot on; interior design and ergonomics are well executed; the SS Supercharged model sounds promising; refinement and competence of mechanical package remains to be proven; occupant comfort levels are unknown. “
Edmunds.com

there will be 2 versions of the SS one is the supercharged SS that has the 2.0L blown eco and one is the SS that has a 2.4L eco N/A with 170hp (which is being debuted first in the Pontiac solstice)

Price: $21,995
Horsepower : 205 hp @ 5600 rpm
Torque : 200 lb-ft @ 4400rpm
Weight: 2690

0-60 and ¼ mile times should be quite a bit faster than the redline due to the properly matched close ratio 5spd.

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GOLF 1.8T

Personally I cant stand the way golfs look. But to each his own and it is still in competition with all three cars.

From new car test drive
“The new 180-hp 1.8T is a joy when paired with the manual gearbox. It's quick, at times abrupt, but oh so smooth. It delivers brisk off-the-line acceleration performance. There's a surprising amount of low-rpm torque here, more than enough to spin the front wheels. Traction control steps in when needed to minimize this, enhancing control.
Accelerating through the gears, there is some turbo lag down at the bottom of the rev range. Under normal conditions, launches can be a little slow unless you rev it up and drop the clutch. There is little torque available below 2000 rpm. It starts to build at 2500 rpm and comes on quickly after that, but it isn't the explosion of power that big turbochargers deliver. It's more like the progressive acceleration of a smaller turbo, more fluid and linear.
This 1.8-liter turbocharged engine is so smooth and revs so freely that you're encouraged to put the throttle down. In spite of its power, it nets an EPA-rated 24/31 mpg city/highway.
I did not like the 2002 1.8T with the five-speed automatic Tiptronic transmission ($1075). The automatic seems to get confused by the turbo in city traffic, often leaving the engine caught out, bogging when I pushed down on the throttle. When asked for moderate acceleration, the transmission would downshift, there would be a surge of power, I'd ease off the throttle, the transmission would upshift, the engine would eventually bog again, and the process would start all over. It's far more subtle than the description above suggests, but it annoyed me on downtown streets. This car is too good to be saddled with this combination. Therefore, we strongly recommend the manual gearbox with the 1.8T.
The Golf offers excellent handling and a comfortable, well-controlled ride quality. With compliant coil springs and gas-filled shocks, the driver feels connected to the road while vibrations and bumps are comfortably muffled. MacPherson struts in front and the independent torsion-beam suspension in the rear help keep the car rooted to the road. Aggressive maneuvers generate little body roll. The longer wheelbase and the much stiffer chassis of the fourth-generation Golf reduce vibration on rough roads and improve handling in tight corners. The Golf's firm brake pedal provides good feedback to the driver. This car is stable under hard braking. ABS, which comes standard, is ready to prevent wheel lockup, allowing the driver to maintain steering control in an emergency stop. The GTI comes with Volkswagen's Anti-Slip Regulation system (ASR), which detects wheel slippage and applies braking force to that particular wheel. Working with an Electronic Differential Lock at speeds below 25 mph, ASR controls throttle response to maximize traction and minimize slipping for enhanced driver control in tight cornering situations. Pressing a button in the center of the dash turns ASR off. It's a great system and can help you continue tracking around a corner instead of skidding off the road into peril.”
Nctd.com

Price: $19,250
0-60 mph : 6.5 sec
1/4mile : 15.3 sec
Weight: 2932

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SUPERCHARGED tC:

From car and driver: referring to a non sc tC

“The tC's lack of a Subway diet also affects its handling, but more objectively than subjectively. On the skidpad, it had less grip than the Civic Si, Cooper S, and Mazda 3 s, yet on our 10Best handling loop, it gave the impression it could deliver much more than that. From low-speed hairpins to high-speed sweepers, the tC displayed minimal understeer and moderate body roll and an eagerness to be pushed harder. The power-assisted rack-and-pinion steering plays a big role here. Its action is light and direct, its sense responsive. The faster you go, the better it feels.
Over Michigan's rough stuff, the tC demonstrated a supple and compliant ride that still felt sporty and firm. The independent suspension soaked up bumps and divots with a level of composure that's rare in the tC's stratum, never crashing and never unsettling the car. In light of its level of amusement through the curves, we can't recall a $16,000 sport hatch that offered such an excellent compromise between ride and handling.“
Car and Driver


Base price: $16,500
Estimated SC: $3,500 plus installation
Final price: $20,000

Hp: 200
Tq: 200
Weight: 2950

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those are the only cars that are comparable to the tC overall within its class. Which is 2 door boosted 4cyl coupes under 23k.

personally for the price tag id take any one of them except the gold and be very very happy. :D

tcwannab

what about the cooper S... thats supercharged and in the price range

*edit* it starts at 20849

sciontc_mich

yeah and i laugh at the reliability of the VW, Saturn, Or Chevrolet.. oh yeah I went fast for two miles.. then i was back at the dealer.. lol.. funny.. i'll take my chances with the tC and doing performance work (if i was going to) on whatever the tC can produce.. with TRD working on a rumored 300 hp version.. I'll wait for something more reliable from Toyota..

quadoptix

if it was 4 door allowed in the category hell, id rather have a srt4 or a base wrx :D

quadoptix

but if those r the three choices, id take the vw golf anyday...my friend has one and its great =)

CU_rob

The ION doesn't look that bad, for being a GM.

BUT it has a MAJOR flaw... The center consul mounted gauge cluster, with the Tach on the far right, totally out of your periferial vision, definately not set up to be raced, autocrossed, or taken seriously as a "driver's" car.

RageAholic

The fact is there still aren't any real hp or tq figures for the sc'd TC. All I've ever seen is "power should be around 200 hp". For about 3500 + install I would hope for more than that.

JasonH

I don't think any of those pics are of Ion Redlines. This is what they look like:





I really don't like the way it looks. I think the Cobalt looks better, and I don't like the Cobalt at all either. The good news is there's no shortage or Ion Redlines! My local Saturn place has about 10 sitting out front. My Scion dealer 1/2 mile away has no tCs.

As for the VW (it's not a Golf, it's a GTI) once you add sunroof and 17" wheels, the MSRP becomes $21,465, and you're still not getting a lot of the things the tC has to offer.

olarmyone

Hey 2200fire, that is my Scion!!! That will be 1cent per page visit in roialties;)
Cheers,
olarmyone

http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/656902

ScionSips

OK, according to Scion so far there will be three stages to the TRD SC. Stage one will run 7psi and consist of new injectors, pulley spool, and the SC(200hp), stage two will add an intercooler and a bigger pulley spool(225hp), and stage three they are soposed to add pistons, rings, rods, and retainer springs(250hp). Obviously this is all speculation to this point but that is the word I am getting from Scion. I also want to let you guys know that they are going to do thier best to keep it between $3000 and $3500 INSTALLED. WooHoo. We'll see. But to bring up a point, according to the post up top, the Saturn is running 12.5psi and already has a intercooler and is running the same numbers as TRD's preliminary numbers.

dizzytc

ScionSips: What is the timeframe for Stage 1, 2,3? Say Scion does come out with a Stage 3 SC...when installed, it would have to replace all that you mentioned? Will the wheels be able to handle that much power? If scions SC has 200hp, what is the hp to the wheels? Can that difference from crank to wheels be applied for all the stages?

Thanks

2200fire

those pics ARE redlines they are just ones that people are already fixing up. the orange one may be a regular ion- but the only diff between the 2 is the engine, so for picture purposes there IS NO DIFFERENCE.


yes it is running 12.5psi and getting the same numbers as trd is saying however, the ecu is severely raping the cars performance. if you look at the redlines dyno and read what sport compact car said about it. so with just an ecu upgrade this car would gain TONS i would assume 20 or more hp based on how the dyno looks

also your running 14.8 or faster with full warranty on everything. people are sayign that the 14.8 isnt true that its really low 14 mid 14 car. where as, from my understanding only stage one for the tC will be covered. and in order to get into the mid 14's with the tC im guessing youd need stage 3.

the 2.0l ecotec has forged internals all around. and is a race proven engine. shouldnt have the same rep as other gm motors.

to bad the thing looks pretty ugly when stock(kinda like it when its dropped and rims) and the inside from what i hear is pretty noisy and the transmission is horribly matched for the engine. stupid gm, always messign something up.

from sport compact car:
"The rest of the car, however, while not without many positive attributes, has a list of problems that keeps us from fighting for the keys. These problems range from the truly unfixable, like the car's huge 185-inch length, to the fixable, like a tachometer that's always 800 rpm behind the motor.
In defense of the capable team of engineers that make up the recently formed GM Performance Division, most of the Red Line's flaws are not their fault. They're the fault of the boneheads who designed the Saturn ION in the first place."


but the overall price would be cheaper to get into than a tC running equal times. like i said: so if you want great performace and mediocre interior quality for under 20k than the redline is where it is at. and for the srt-4 well that is 20k with AWESOME performance, but personally even worse interior than redline and its a 4 door and a NEON

stage one and stage 2 price is just a guess- if anyoen knows specualted prices tell me :D
base- 16500
sc- 3500
stage 2- 1500
stage 3-1500

$23,000

the tC imo is still a MUCH better car itself, but when modding- the tC is no longer the great deal it starts out as.

Forevermore

well i think its good all these companies are making performance stuff for their cars. ill bet the dealers love it too. they are gonna so take advanage of install charges its not even funny. i allready got the dealer telling me that if i want the trd springs installed its gonna cost me $199 for the springs and $600 for the install but i guess there are some asses out there that will pay that much. but the good thing is with all these companies making ____ like this, the competion between the performance parts people will give us better parts.

like if the GM performance people make the red line faster then the tC, maybe the TRD people will push it alitle and make a add-on that gives even more power :D

empleh

well, this is how it is...usually. you pay more for quality...and toyota feels it is quality. for example, when you go buy a camry, people always ask me, how come i can't get a bigger rebate, ford has 3000 dollars on its focus. well, quality. lets put it this way, say the ion or any of the other cars for that matter, are running 14 secs in the quarter, but the tC is running 14.5 for the same money. almost everyone would still go with the tC. so what does toyota care about making the car mirror the others performance numbers...they gave us a good platform, so we should make it stupid fast....isn't that what being a tuner is all about?

2200fire

^ i agree. the toyota will have great reliability.

however, like i said the eco motor is very reliable and a good performer. unliek alot of other gm motors.

ford offers 3000 off because that is actually how much it should be worth. they try using the phsycology that if its priced higher but says on sale people will think they are getting a better deal.

imo they should just price the car what it is worth like scion does. if that was the case with other manufacturers you could obviously see the price difference and the reflection it has on quality.

tibs brand new would be 15,500 instead of their curretn 1800 with 2500 cash back
cavs fully loaded would be 14,500 instead of 16,000 with 2500 cash back

but sadly the majority of the population think that if its on sale for cheaper than what they say they woudl seel it at then they are getting a good deal. when in fact they are actually paying how much the car should be listed for = no great deal.

a made this thread when i first realized that a modded tC isnt that much of a great deal anymore. it ends up beign the same price and a little more than the competition. and in my book the only thing that justifies the higher price is interior quality and versatility. reliability when compared to a redline or cobalt isnt even an issue withme because i know the eco is a great motor, only thing id be worried about on reliability is other things like suspension and transmission.

dont get me wrong. id still rather have a tC than all of the cars in this post, its just that:
i get the feeling that people think thats its the greatest deal out in the subcompact class and in fact it just isnt.

it is trully just very slightly better than competition and a coupel thousand more in price.

TrafficinLA

Give GM a chance to prove themselves. People gave Toyota and Honda a chance when they first started to import cars here, GM deserves the same.

Rivulent

Yeah, but last time I checked, GM has been making cars for 80 years. People are going on their overall track record, not like back when toyota and honda came to the US and we had animosity towards the japanese. We've given GM a chance to prove themselves. Now they have a chance to make a better car than the norm :o

spwolf

hmph, you are completly comparing apples and oranges. What you save from incentive from the dealer, you will lose when you try to sell that car. Thats why Toyota's keep high resale values while domestics flop. Go to edmunds and check True Cost to Own, which adds up sales price (true cost too), warranty and resale values and tells you how much you end up spending for 5 years... It shows how you actually save 2k when buying tC over 1k originally cheaper Tib...

Also, if you compare lease quotes for tC and its "competitors" like Tib or ION, you will see how cheaper leasing tC is, because of higher estimated resale value at the end of the lease.

Besides, ION is competitor to Corolla, not the tC, it has significantly smaller wheelbase and it starts at measly 11k. What you get with tC is almost-luxury coupe brought down to 16k, while with ION souped up 11k car. And Cobalt, according to their own site, is actually more expensive than tC, with less equipment... SS edition will be costing 22.5k's and for that 6k in price you can equip your tC with some serious goodies... and it is still smaller wheelbase car, that looks much uglier...

as said before, if Scion priced tC like Toyota would, it would cost 20k... it really is an deal of the century.

TrafficinLA

Buicks as a whole are reliable, Corvettes are one of the least expensive sports cars, GMC trucks are durable, and the Malibus are a decent alternative to Camrys. Things do change, for example, VW reliability crashed, Toyota sludge engines, I-Drive on BMWs (driver's car), and Honda Accord transmission problems. Car manufacturers can change for the better. If Hyundai can do it, GM can do it.

maybeillcatchfire

the cost of 3000 to 3500 is installed ..that is the price you walk out the door with ...