rjsalvi

Let's take this turbo/supercharger debate in a different direction. For the moment, let's forget all about any aftermarket blower kit and instead focus on the stock motor.

Let's say I show up at your shop with 3 grand to spend and I want to spend it all on normally aspirated horsepower. What would I get for my $$$ and what would you do? I'm thinking head work (port, polish, big valves), intake and exhaust mods, FI mods, etc.

All in all, what HP increase might one expect if they drop 3 grand into a Scion motor, and what modifications would you make? Can it even be done? Why or why not? Let's discuss!

Mr_scion

BigOrangeXb

If you asked for all that with 3 grand they'd laugh at you. If someone makes forged rods and pistons, that would be around $1000 right there. Forged crank, maybe in the area of $800-1200. Or you could cryo-treat the stock crank to make it stronger. Cams would run about $400, bigger fuel injectors = around $350, header = $250, full exhaust = around $500. Intake = $200, valves and springs = roughly $400. Headwork alone would probably cost you around $1000.
There's a lot to building an engine that'll make and withstand high power. I don't think anyone really knows the limits or how strong these engines are since they are relatively new. Haven't seen many people out there trying to extract maximum horsepower out of them, and actually tearing them down and trying different things and see what breaks.
As of now, that $3000 is better towards the TRD turbo system (when it comes out) than trying for N/A. Real N/A power takes a lot of R & D along with a whole lot of money. If the engine has been out longer and someone else has found what works, then it might be cheaper to go that route. It's like with the engine in my Grand Am, it's a Quad 4 and you can get about 250 crank HP out of it relatively cheap cuz the R & D was done 10 years ago by GM and a select few other companies. I decided to turbocharge it because not that many people have done it and I wanted something different with a lot of power.
Did I go in the right direction with this? LoL

Guest

DAM DUDE!!! I wouldn't think some would shoot down his ballon , but you just nailed his a$$. I am soooooo sorry to say that BigOrangeXb is just about right on every point. The stylis manifold back system alone is 500.00bucks. And I think we need more time for this engine to be out for more aftermarket and research to be done. Sorry rjsalvi

hahajoey

so what u're all saying is th at 3000 bucks is not enuff to build a NA motor?
i really beg to differ.

scionspecialistvegas

tell us why joey, show us the light bro. I want to know. Bill

hahajoey

i think a naturally aspirated car while have more
tq and hp throughout the entire powerban. the engine will be
super responsive. and will just RIPPP..

but i dont think u need TITANIUM THIS AND THAT?
i mean when u add a turbo kit, u're not slapping on a turbo kit
that belongs on a supra onto a little scion. u put one that is small,
cuz the motor is small.

i think our little motors can use a port/polish, intake, header, exhaust,
test pipe(no cat), and like maybe a rebuilt head. i think those things
with a few little things like new springs and what not should be it. it will output
a lot more power than stock and i dont think it will exceed 3000 bucks.\
intake: 200, header: 300, exhaust(custom no cat) 500. thats 1000.
lets just say 1500 to rebuild the head and 500 for internal upgrades.
im over pricing everything. but yea. i mean injen intakes go for less than 200 bucks
on the street.. and a manifold back exhaust at a muffler shop will be less than 200 bucks for the piping/labor and maybe 100-200 TOPS for a muffler

iglooxb

i agree with ha ha joey,bolt ons and a little port and polish would be hella cheap and it would make the car hella fast compared to stock,you wouldnt even have to change any internals,the pistons cr is hi enough already and the stock valve springs are good to redline,bolt ons, full exhaust with no cat and a good port match job to match the gaskets on the header side and intake manifold side as well as porting the intake manifold to match would make one of these things scoot pritty good,and whats cool is you could do it piece by piece,instead of having to come up with 3000$ all at once for a turbo,im glad this came up,i think im going all motor

GruntStyle

my 2 cents- changing the internals and port and polish maybe even boring out alittle bit are you best bet for the hp gain, if you want to add a turbo later this is the best way to go because if you do all this you will be able to get more PSI and therefore more hp out of it. all the other stuff I.E . exhaust, intake, are good too, but you will not get the same output from this as you would from beefier internals. but you really need to find the stuff that will work with our motors first, i still have not found many products that will work with the 1.5l

rjsalvi

This is just an intellectual exercise talking about all this because the motor is relatively new and some aftermarket parts are not yet available, but let's suppose they were. Big Orange suggests forged crank, rods and pistons. Why? I'd be more concerned with a forged lower end -- or the lack thereof -- if i was strapping on a blower.

But let's take a closer look at BigOrange's parts list/prices and spec out the mods:

injectors: $350
header: $250
exhaust: $500
cams: $400
intake $200
throttle body $250
valves/springs $400
head work: $1000
Total: $3,350

Okay, I went over by a few hundred. A blower will cost this much, put more stess on the bottom end, add more weight to the front end, makes it more difficult to work under the hood, and it only yields a whopping 25 HP?? Let's say it's a turbo system that yields 50 HP. I still think with the above list, you can squeeze out *at least* 50 HP and no one would know it but you. AND, you'd have it all on demand the second you press the gas pedal.

NOW...let's say someone desiged manifolds for a pair of Weber 40 DCOE's and you could bolt them on for $1,000. You could offset 75% of the carburettor costs by deleting the injectors, intake and throttle body...and end up with a serious "heavy breather."

Again, this is just intellectual masturbation, but I think it represents an alternate way to go besides a blower. I like turbo/supercharging as a means to "pump up the volume," but I think with 10.5:1 compression, you'll never realize the full performance a blower offers without tearing the motor down and reinforcing the bottom end. If you do that, cost jumps radically.

There's been some good stuff presented so far, let's explore it more.

kdanie

It depends on what you plan to do with this car, street (pass smog), drag race, road race. Each would have different requirements. There has been very little performance development done on this engine. With that in mind, here's my thoughts as an "old school" hot rodder.

Yes, the forged bottom end is much more critical with a turbo or blower added. No one really knows how strong the rods and crank are. Custom forged pistons are about $500.

A good header worth bolting on is considerably more than $250! Try about $550 in mild steel and $850 in stainless!! The headers currently on the market just plain BLOW for this motor! They are designed to bolt on to the stock exhaust and will not make maximum power, they are just convienent. In fact, I have been trying to find out what dia. the exhaust port really is, Scion can't tell me, the dealer can't tell me, DC Sports (DC himself) can't tell me, ELportotypes phone is disconnected. The aftermarket headers out there now were developed using the gasket as a flange template (I have not seen the TRD header yet). The flange has a 1 5/8" hole in it, I seriously doubt this engine has an exhasut port that large!! A properly designed and developed header for this engine would give significant gains. Cost, $800 (steel, ceramic coated)

hahajoey said to use an exhaust system without the CAT, modern performance CATs are available and do not restrict flow at all. Cost, $100 (with carb certification)

Custom exhaust. This can vary widely, depending on the muffler/resonator you want but should definately use mandrel bends and be 2.25" or 2.5" dia. depending on hp level reached. Cost, $500

You young guys need to learn how to make power without spending a bunch of $$$! $350 for 4 injectors? They will gladly take your $$ but it's certainly not necessairy to spend that much. I just picked up a brand new set of 4 26lb Delphi injectors for my BMW EFI project for $55!! They will support 200hp in a 4 cyl.

There are probably several larger throttle bodies from other Toyota products that would work well for considerably less $$ than the expensive aftermarket units. How big of throttle body do you think you need?? I have seen 70mm TBs for Honda 1.6L engines! That's rediculous, a TB that size will easily feed a 500hp V8. I have a new WEBER 52mm TB that will support 175hp. Cost, $100

For racing I would use individual throttle bodies, 45mm would be great for HP! 40mm would be great for torque/driveability. Cost, $1000 (or much less if you want to scrounge parts and do some fabracating)

An aftermarket intake would be a good development for this engine.

Custom stainless valves from Manley are about $25 ea. Does anyone know if there is even room for larger valves?? This is a fairly small bore engine.... Cost, $400

Race porting is very expensive and takes a lot of time and testing to see what will work. The $3000 would not cover that expense. Wait until someone else does it first. A good clean up and port match port job can be done at home and show good gains depending on the port configuration. Cost, $50 (if you already own a compressor and die grinder)

Boring the block would not show much gain, but if it's a max effort engine every little helps.

A truely stout engine will require a programable ECU. Not really a big deal unless you are going to have to pass smog in CA. Cost, about $1000

I'm sure it will be a couple of years before cams are available. A little stouter cam would be a welcome addition and the $400 is probably a close guess.

I would guess these engines could make 175hp N/A but it would be a high strung race motor without much torque/midrange.

What could you do for $3000? Your best bet would be:

A custom header/exhaust $1400 or so (this will show your biggest gain)
A mild head porting and gasket match job $500
Slightly larger throttle body $100
Slightly larger fuel injectors $100 (shop around, they are out there!)
Programable ECU $1000 (depending on brand but it would cost at least that much to reprogram your existing ECU but you could make changes in the future)

I'm slightly over your limit and you need to add 20% for unforseen expenses, something ALWAYS pops up you didn't count on.

If my wife would let me take the car apart for a couple of months I would do this to my Xa but I would do the work myself and save a ton of $$$. I can't believe people pay someone to modify their cars for them......

This is just my opinion based on 30 years of modifying all types of engines.

ken

hahajoey

im not a certified mechanic.
but my 2 cents is, when u build the engine and it gives u "a little" hp
as a lot of us know. doesn't it HIT the max hp. or like just run at max hp
longer and quicker than a turbo or what ever will do?
a blower will but i mean if we're not touching forced induction...
the hp will pick up and be at 25 or whatever PLUS on top of the stock hp,l
a lot faster and more even.. not just 25MAX at one little peak right? i dunno...

but this thread is very informative!

iglooxb

keep it simple,forget about stand alone engine managment and individual throttle bodies, 400 header,100 hi flow cat 300 for piping with muffler from a muffler shop ,injen intake 150 and 50 for grinding bits for porting,and lets say 250 for injectors from rc,thats 1250 and the difference in the car would be night and day,sure you could do all the other crap also but in the end the car would spend more time in the gerage than on the road ,the above combo is simple and cheap and would give you power you could feel ,and you could still drive to tj for the weekend or idle in vegas traffic with your ac on full blast.

Alter_Ego

I think 50 hp increase na out of this engine is a stretch unless it is a race only motor going the n/a way. 50hp is a big gain in N/A mods when you are starting out with just over 100.

The compression ratio can be lowered a bit by going the cheaper way and using a thicker headgasket or the right way of installing lower compression pistons and hopefully stronger rods ect. But by lowering the compression to run more boost it all comes back around to that we don't know what is going to break and need to be strengthened until it's actually done. It's too bad we don't have more info since these things have been selling for awhile before they came here.

I could have added bolt ons all day, ported the head, gotten cams, and even ran a freaking stroker kit in my VW VR6 but I never would have gotten the end result of power that the Vortech supercharger gave me.

BigOrangeXb

That's my point exactly on forced induction. It's basically multiplying displacement. You may be able to compare HP but torque will be way more on a F/I than N/A.

I now a lot of people consider N/A to be the only "real power" and that's fine, but I like my turbos. Here's everyones expression during and after a ride in my car: :D

BigOrangeXb

One thing some of you are forgetting: He said if he took it to a shop. That means he'll have to pay labor too, which gets pretty costly especially when custom work is involved. I wouldn't take my stuff to a shop to get done. I do everything myself. That saves a lot of money and you learn a lot in the process.
(The $350 for injectors was a estimate based on the price of the set of 52lb/hr I got from RC Eng.). Smaller ones for this engine would probably be a lot less.

TheRedBox

WHY!?!?!?

squirrel

Let's not forget about re-mapping the ECU or replacing it.

While I agree that it would be really nice to get more hp out of the motor, let's look at the origins of the motor. It was designed for use as a commuter, AFAIK. Something that would get good mpg.

Its not like an 18RG where you could do some massaging, add some sidedraft Mikunis/Webers, a cusotm header/exhaust, and be able to go out and stomp.

That's why the 20R was such a dog, it was designed as a truck motor, and not for performance.

Don't get me wrong, I've already added and intake and exhaust to my xB.

A nice port/polish job, matching the intake/exhaust ports w/ the intake and exhaust manifold/header, new injectors, a couple of massaged cams, and a re-mapped or reprogramable ECU would be awesome for our cars. Not too mention a nice LSD!

BigOrangeXb

Yeah, that's a BIG issue with getting the most out of any modern, fuel injected engine combo. Tuning can make or break (literally) your engine.

allblackxb

If i had my world it would all be N/A. I mean i like turbos and stuff but you get real credit if you can make nothing into something aka. 1.5l engine have 150 N/Awhp not 150whp with turbo. You have lag and everything else, the only thing i like turbos for are the B.O.V. When i get money i'm gonna get the internals basically re-done then slap a turbo on it, then it will have fast spool up and loads of power capapbilities. I think it is worth having to put $3,000 into the N/A engine setup than the F.I.(forced induction) because to hold 150whp on a turbo some internals migh break so i would make the pistons, rods, crank, cam, etc. hold the power, it just makes more sence, and you'll gain power out of it. This might be confusing i can't explain for crap!