TXboxdriver

swaybars are a BandAid for improper spring/tire settings

if your car is set up properly, you need no more than stock sway bars

skawt01

Okay people, I'm confused. Can someone tell me what the exact problem is w/understeer under hard cornering? I admit I'm not totally familiar w/how this term affects handling, but I'm seeking a better shock/spring setup so I'll be able to better handle the xA in hard corners.

I just got a set of Toyo F4 tires w/17" ADR Sokudo rims. Handling is better, but I want the ultimate, and since I'm pretty new at tuning, I need advice. Best ride quality, but maximized corner handling is what I'm after.

Thanks for any help. I'm totally at a loss here. (My WRX owner buddy gives me advice, but the xA is a totally different animal than that ride).

Rion

Understeer occurs when the front tires reach the traction limit before the rear tires, the result is, at the limit, you take the turn wider than you want to because the rear wheels are determining the direction of the car more than they should be--- that's why it's called understeer. Like I said, a certain amount of understeer is engineered in to protect people from getting too close to the limit and losing control. Understeer *forces* you to slow down through a turn so you can maintain the proper arc. It offers no advantage except safety for inexperienced drivers.

I don't know about you, but I want to be able to take a turn as fast as I like, I will back off on my own if the car begins to oversteer.

Hope that helps clear it up.

Rion

I disagree.

It really depends on the car and how the suspension is designed, but nearly any car can benefit from a stiffer rear anti-sway bar. It is easily the best bang for the buck mod you can get (unless you have a turbo car, in which case a chip is the best bang for the buck!)

Chimmy3

does c-one make a front sway bar for the xB/bB? You don't have the Cusco Front sway bar up there which is 28mm.

The hotchkis front sway bar is hollow.

Anyone know how thick the stock front sway bar is?

BOXMAN

How come everyone on here thinks they know the Xb/Xa suspension better than the people like, Hotchkis,Cusco...etc. These people made a part and have a name to hold up. So i dont see why they would make a bar that made the cars handle worse.


Any thoughts on that?

Chimmy3

Because they just might. An ethusiast who knows and understands suspension and OWNS the vehicle in question will understand its needs and peculiarities.

Hotchkis and other companies (not speaking for japanese companies... I can't read japanese) will usually not have that insight. They have to design a wide range of products for a wide range of applications. This usually means that individual applications don't necessarily get the necessary attention. Note that for example, all of hotchkis' products to date, fit both the xB and xA. Both cars definately have different handling characteristics.

The other thing they have against them is that they have to design a product with mass appeal. Companies also have to choose between production costs and individual attention to application. If you were to over specialize towards one application you are only appealing to a limited market. So the more universal a part is.. the better usually.

Even if they were to focus on one application the problem of mass market appeal is still apparent. Especially in terms of suspension. Do they design for the extreme performance enthusiast, who wants rock solid cornering at the expense of all else? or for the people who just want to be able to handle corners slightly better without killing the ride quality? You can't possibly design a new part/mold for every niche for ever application. So you make compromises... and things will not always be optimal.

In defense of Hotchkis, since I singled them out, I believe they designed their sway bars to do exactly what sway bars are supposed to do... to ONLY reduce sway or roll. They also included adjustable settings to try to appeal to both audiences. Judging from the sizes of the bars, I'd say they most likely tried to balance the increase in stiffness evenly along the front and back. Thereby reducing roll, but not effecting the original understeer/oversteer characteristic (other than the amount of understeer generated by the body roll).
Theoretically understeer/oversteer can be tuned in various other ways, whether it be springs, struts/shocks, tire pressure, weight distribution, etc.
The problem with the xB is that stock, it has a lot of understeer, much more I'd wager than the xA. Many people feel that for the xB its unneccesary or silly even to return the massive understeer chracteristic back to the xB by stiffening the front sway (especially since you are in the process of "tuning" the suspension). Most people feel that a stiffer rear sway would help eliminate the body roll while granting the xB a much more neutral handling and that that is a better solution.

BOXMAN

Progress RSB = 22mm (addon bar)[/quote]

When i last checked the Progress RSB was 19mm not 22mm

tjdxscion

OK, so now I want to get a Rear Sway Bar for my xA I already have the TRD Springs, shocks and tie bar!

So where can I find an adjustable rear sway bar?
Any links?
Peace tjd!

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Wide_tC

Here is an article written by our engineer talking about hollow vs. solid sway bars.

http://www.hotchkistuning.com/bin/Mi...SwayTech-D.pdf

DJ_SpaRky

Well folks, I'm noy looking to race, but I want a stiffer ride. I'm leaning towards the Hotchkis kit (Fr & Rr). Stiffer & lighter.

FWD will always have understeer.

Just my 3 cents short of a nickel. LOL

Pascal

Great reply Chimmy3.

The car is a system. You have to consider all forces and look at the net result. A part that works wonderfully on someone's setup will be garbage on someone else's. That's why you have this assortment out on the market that doesn't necessarily make ALL cars handle better.

KangaRod

does Cusco offer a rear bar?

SciFly

The Rear Bar of the two bars shown, is currently $138 at partshippers.com

http://www.partshippers.com/index.ph...roducts_id=759

Is this what I would want? After reading through this thread I presume I want
only a rear sway bar. And for my needs, it should be a stiff one.

Thanks for advice's,
R

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chucksu

Yes, 22mm thick should be right on the money. I can't fully recall the name of the company. I think it was something like White Line,
made a 22mm Rear Bar for the Echo that bolted up onto the Scions. The few members who got one, said it helped out a lot.

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Lip

yes thats the one.

its 22mm....not 19mm

i believe the Whiteline is 24mm and thats if you can find it...but it might be a bit to thick for a stock front swaybar. The Progress compliments the front stock swaybar perfectly.

Unless your racing the box? there is no need to replace the front and rear swaybar...its overkill and i don't see it being worth the value what so ever.

my 2cents

SciFly

thanks... now, any more votes before I buy from the sponsor above?

Lip

https://www.scionlife.com/forums/vie...9815d78f3006bf


or alone here


https://www.scionlife.com/forums/vie...990&highlight=

noway you'll regret this swaybar. Your everyday drive will be improved..not just when your hard on it.

good luck

Jeff

SciFly

If this picture looks familar, Jeff, it's because it's a crop of your car with the progress bar from one of those threads you cited.


I put it here to show off the simplicity of this bar.



I'd like to use this picture in a coilover thread and yeah, mention the bar again in passing when I do.

The bar, as any other would do, basically, adds to the torsional stiffness of the rear axle crossmember. It appears to be just a simple thing indeed--- making the axle more like a solid beam instead of a tortional semi-spring as it is in stock form.


folk-ses:
From all I read, there is only one "drawback" to making a rear axle as'sy resistant to torsions. What would this be?

??? (work ya bwains and googly fingers)

Subcompact Culture

For a baseline, what are the stock swaybar sizes?