Stock Toyota/xB2/tC2 differential reliability?
08-10-2011, 10:16 PM
#1
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Stock Toyota/xB2/tC2 differential reliability?
I did something completely irrational a week ago: I charged the cost of a new Quaife/TRD LSD (QDF25E/TRD PTR39-21070) LSD, TRD installation kit, replacement speedometer drive gear and 18 shims to my already heavily burdened credit card.
THEN, after delivery, I started to worry about installation. Even though I was aware that I needed dealer installation to preserve my warranty, I called my favorite repair shop which, in turn, referred me to their most highly regarded transmission shop.
When I called the latter, however, I received the third degree, to wit:
"What's wrong with the differential you've got now?" [Nothing.]
"Are you planning on racing it?" [No.]
"There are known issues with Toyota manual 2AZ-FE differentials. We start seeing 'em come in at about 75,000 miles." [I've never heard that.]
"We get $100 an hour and you're talkin' 20 hours at least." [Thanks anyway. Good bye.]
Not one of the six Scion dealers I called had ever sold, much less installed, a TRD LSD. One of them actually hung up on me when I asked for a quote.
I finally found one which has "a couple of good transmission boys who should be able to figure it out." Labor quote: $963.
Have you guys ever heard of "issues" with stock, manual 5-speed Toyota differentials? I've been haunting these forums for a couple of years now and I never have.
Thanks, Marc
THEN, after delivery, I started to worry about installation. Even though I was aware that I needed dealer installation to preserve my warranty, I called my favorite repair shop which, in turn, referred me to their most highly regarded transmission shop.
When I called the latter, however, I received the third degree, to wit:
"What's wrong with the differential you've got now?" [Nothing.]
"Are you planning on racing it?" [No.]
"There are known issues with Toyota manual 2AZ-FE differentials. We start seeing 'em come in at about 75,000 miles." [I've never heard that.]
"We get $100 an hour and you're talkin' 20 hours at least." [Thanks anyway. Good bye.]
Not one of the six Scion dealers I called had ever sold, much less installed, a TRD LSD. One of them actually hung up on me when I asked for a quote.
I finally found one which has "a couple of good transmission boys who should be able to figure it out." Labor quote: $963.
Have you guys ever heard of "issues" with stock, manual 5-speed Toyota differentials? I've been haunting these forums for a couple of years now and I never have.
Thanks, Marc
Last edited by MR_LUV; 02-08-2018 at 02:58 AM. Reason: typo
08-10-2011, 11:49 PM
#2
Aargh -- what a horror story 
! I'd always presumed it was something I'd best install myself, though the install instructions are kind of daunting. No, I haven't read anything either, but I quite believe it's non-trivial. I suspect it's probably best installed at the dealership for maximum warranty, plus they're most likely to know the transaxle. In any case, good luck with it man!
! I'd always presumed it was something I'd best install myself, though the install instructions are kind of daunting. No, I haven't read anything either, but I quite believe it's non-trivial. I suspect it's probably best installed at the dealership for maximum warranty, plus they're most likely to know the transaxle. In any case, good luck with it man!
08-24-2011, 08:38 PM
#3
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Kudos to Meng Motorsports!!!
Update:
I've encountered a number of issues with the (attempted) installation of a Quaife QDF25E LSD (which I purchased from Meng Motorsports) in my '09 xB. The first problem arose when my local Scion dealer called to say that the speedometer drive gear I'd supplied - Toyota part no: 33481-28050 - was meant for use on an E350/tC transaxle. They did a search and found the correct xB2 (E351) speedometer drive gear - Toyota part no. 33481-20150 - which, of course, had to especially ordered.
After more than a week on the dealer's lift, and with no progress made, the speedometer gear drive specified for my xB finally was delivered to my dealer.
The new gear didn't fit properly either!
The problem, as I personally observed, is that my old (nylon?) speedo gear on my OEM 'open' differential is 'clamped' - albeit fairly lightly - in place between the front differential case, which has machined detents to accept the keyed speedo drive gear, and the large tapered roller bearing that's pressed on top. So it can't 'wobble' and partially turn in place.
On my new Quaife QDF25E LSD, the shoulder on the front differential case upon which the speedo gear rests has been machined down a few thousands of an inch too far - far enough that my speedometer drive gear has considerable "slop" and rattles when the LSD is turned upside-down.
I may sound calm but I'm not, believe me. Jesus, Quaife's own web
site http://quaifelsd.com/applications.aspx says their QDF25E LSD will fit an xB2 transaxle. Shouldn't they know?
Anyway, I have paid another $350+ for a PTR39-21070 (TRD/Quaife) LSD from TRDSparks.com.
This is my earnest plea to you: Please patronize MENG MOTORSPORTS http://stores.mengmotorsports.com/StoreFront.bok wherever you can.
They accepted for return the Quaife QDF25E LSD I purchased from them, and Tony - the rep I personally dealt with throughout - made calls all over creation trying to research the problem for me, without even being asked.
Don't hesitate to buy from Meng!
My car's been in the shop for 12 days now and counting ...
Marc
I've encountered a number of issues with the (attempted) installation of a Quaife QDF25E LSD (which I purchased from Meng Motorsports) in my '09 xB. The first problem arose when my local Scion dealer called to say that the speedometer drive gear I'd supplied - Toyota part no: 33481-28050 - was meant for use on an E350/tC transaxle. They did a search and found the correct xB2 (E351) speedometer drive gear - Toyota part no. 33481-20150 - which, of course, had to especially ordered.
After more than a week on the dealer's lift, and with no progress made, the speedometer gear drive specified for my xB finally was delivered to my dealer.
The new gear didn't fit properly either!
The problem, as I personally observed, is that my old (nylon?) speedo gear on my OEM 'open' differential is 'clamped' - albeit fairly lightly - in place between the front differential case, which has machined detents to accept the keyed speedo drive gear, and the large tapered roller bearing that's pressed on top. So it can't 'wobble' and partially turn in place.
On my new Quaife QDF25E LSD, the shoulder on the front differential case upon which the speedo gear rests has been machined down a few thousands of an inch too far - far enough that my speedometer drive gear has considerable "slop" and rattles when the LSD is turned upside-down.
I may sound calm but I'm not, believe me. Jesus, Quaife's own web
site http://quaifelsd.com/applications.aspx says their QDF25E LSD will fit an xB2 transaxle. Shouldn't they know?
Anyway, I have paid another $350+ for a PTR39-21070 (TRD/Quaife) LSD from TRDSparks.com.
This is my earnest plea to you: Please patronize MENG MOTORSPORTS http://stores.mengmotorsports.com/StoreFront.bok wherever you can.
They accepted for return the Quaife QDF25E LSD I purchased from them, and Tony - the rep I personally dealt with throughout - made calls all over creation trying to research the problem for me, without even being asked.
Don't hesitate to buy from Meng!
My car's been in the shop for 12 days now and counting ...
Marc
08-24-2011, 08:55 PM
#4
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Milpitas
Posts: 1,783
Sorry again for the whole confusion =[. We have updated our site for the time being to only have that LSD listed for the TC and are in process of contacting Quaife to notify them of the possible confusion for future customers.
Thanks for the shoutout, we really appreciate it. Your satisfaction is very important to us so we will always try our best to keep our customers happy =].
Thanks for the shoutout, we really appreciate it. Your satisfaction is very important to us so we will always try our best to keep our customers happy =].
08-24-2011, 09:39 PM
#5
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Location: SoCalifornia
Posts: 372
Blowing diffentials?? Doubt it, Toyota over-designs their drivetrains, hence their reliability reputation; which you may have heard of.
Now if it were a Honda, any serious output upgrades would require like-minded driveline work.
Now if it were a Honda, any serious output upgrades would require like-minded driveline work.
12-12-2011, 06:48 PM
#7
So you finally got everything worked out?
Care to elaborate on what all needed to be done (about to get into the same mess myself). I bought the TRDsparks LSD Install Kit (as I understood it, it contained everything I would need to install the LSD),
but now I am a little worried I might need lots of "odd bits" that have to be specially ordered, keeping my car off the road...
Care to elaborate on what all needed to be done (about to get into the same mess myself). I bought the TRDsparks LSD Install Kit (as I understood it, it contained everything I would need to install the LSD),
but now I am a little worried I might need lots of "odd bits" that have to be specially ordered, keeping my car off the road...
Last edited by MR_LUV; 02-08-2018 at 03:03 AM. Reason: typo
12-12-2011, 10:57 PM
#8
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Hey Roller:
I just finished writing a page of text explaining in detail some of the difficulties I (or rather my dealer and I) encountered in the course of my '09 xB TRD/LSD install. And I wasn't even close to being finished when I realized all that prose was unnecessary.
So I've decided to shorten this somewhat, for now. When you come to real grief, THEN you'll need the details of someone else's experience! (Just kidding.)
You've got some heavy weather ahead, I'm afraid. Specifically, you're facing issues getting your car through the shop door and, once there, you may have issues getting the work done correctly.
To get down to the nitty-gritty here, I think you're gonna have to get real lucky on this one. I'm not throwing stones here, because I too did things back-asswards.
Here's how I see it.
You've said - https://www.scionlife.com/forums/sho...&highlight=lsd - that you've already pulled your tranny. As you say, that is indeed a large chunk of the total labor involved.
However, if at this point you'd prefer to pay to have the job finished by someone else (and perhaps to preserve your warranty?), then I'd have to say that you should, first and foremost, FIND A TOYOTA/SCION dealer who's done one of these TRD installs before. Verifiably. You must ensure that the same, experienced mechanic will also be your mechanic. Good luck. Of course, no mechanic likes "basket case" jobs, and I'm very afraid your final bill - even if you should be so lucky as to find a mechanic with Scion LSD installation experience - will NOT reflect the efforts you've invested so far.
You have to make the decision, but I personally feel so strongly about handing my car off to someone with experience that I would tow or flat-bed my car hundreds of miles, if necessary.
BTW, in answer to your question, yes, my car's operation and performance seems as smooth and glitch-free as it was before the LSD was installed. (And I can't understand how this could be so! See post-script.)
As I've said, my dealer gave me an initial quote of $963 for labor; the actual labor cost was about $1,100.00 (plus an additional $ 1,300 for the LSD, parts, and shipping). Total, $2,400.00.
I've rambled a bit here, but I'm not going to revise anything. That damned LSD has caused me enough work!
Marc
[PS: I DON'T KNOW the extent to which problems arose because of TRD's ambiguous installation instructions, but I do know (e.g.) that TRD's parts list specifies the same speedometer drive gear for both tC's and xBs, and I discovered other anomalies as well. In fact, there still exists a lot of confusion about the installation of TRD's LSD in general, which is plain silly. Any mechanic should be able to perform this work easily with only a couple of minutes of informed instruction and the right tools.
Be that as it may, I'm nearly certain that the mechanic who worked on my car - while skilled - ended up ignoring TRD's instructions altogether (because he had to get my car off the lift and away once and for all). I distinctly remember a Toyota service representative telling me over the phone that TRD's printed instructions "[D]id not apply because the job only amounted to the removal of the main body of the OEM open lsd, followed by the installation in its place of the new TRD unit." [This was as reported by the technician assigned to my car.]
In other words, my mechanic just relied on ordinary tools (including heavy duty pullers). No dial-gauges, etc., required, thank you very much.]
[P.P.S: After the fact of my install, I notified several vendors that TRD's instructions were either unclear or inaccurate. I even emailed Quaife in England and TRD in California. Since then, I have noted that some published application specifications and installation remarks/notes and/or directions have been qualified or dropped altogether. I don't know if this was due to my feedback, but I would strongly recommend that you let your shop decide what additional parts - i.e., in addition to those in your TRD installation kit - should be ordered. Your car may be on the lift a couple of extra days, but I would urge you to do this right. M]
I just finished writing a page of text explaining in detail some of the difficulties I (or rather my dealer and I) encountered in the course of my '09 xB TRD/LSD install. And I wasn't even close to being finished when I realized all that prose was unnecessary.
So I've decided to shorten this somewhat, for now. When you come to real grief, THEN you'll need the details of someone else's experience! (Just kidding.)
You've got some heavy weather ahead, I'm afraid. Specifically, you're facing issues getting your car through the shop door and, once there, you may have issues getting the work done correctly.
To get down to the nitty-gritty here, I think you're gonna have to get real lucky on this one. I'm not throwing stones here, because I too did things back-asswards.
Here's how I see it.
You've said - https://www.scionlife.com/forums/sho...&highlight=lsd - that you've already pulled your tranny. As you say, that is indeed a large chunk of the total labor involved.
However, if at this point you'd prefer to pay to have the job finished by someone else (and perhaps to preserve your warranty?), then I'd have to say that you should, first and foremost, FIND A TOYOTA/SCION dealer who's done one of these TRD installs before. Verifiably. You must ensure that the same, experienced mechanic will also be your mechanic. Good luck. Of course, no mechanic likes "basket case" jobs, and I'm very afraid your final bill - even if you should be so lucky as to find a mechanic with Scion LSD installation experience - will NOT reflect the efforts you've invested so far.
You have to make the decision, but I personally feel so strongly about handing my car off to someone with experience that I would tow or flat-bed my car hundreds of miles, if necessary.
BTW, in answer to your question, yes, my car's operation and performance seems as smooth and glitch-free as it was before the LSD was installed. (And I can't understand how this could be so! See post-script.)
As I've said, my dealer gave me an initial quote of $963 for labor; the actual labor cost was about $1,100.00 (plus an additional $ 1,300 for the LSD, parts, and shipping). Total, $2,400.00.
I've rambled a bit here, but I'm not going to revise anything. That damned LSD has caused me enough work!
Marc
[PS: I DON'T KNOW the extent to which problems arose because of TRD's ambiguous installation instructions, but I do know (e.g.) that TRD's parts list specifies the same speedometer drive gear for both tC's and xBs, and I discovered other anomalies as well. In fact, there still exists a lot of confusion about the installation of TRD's LSD in general, which is plain silly. Any mechanic should be able to perform this work easily with only a couple of minutes of informed instruction and the right tools.
Be that as it may, I'm nearly certain that the mechanic who worked on my car - while skilled - ended up ignoring TRD's instructions altogether (because he had to get my car off the lift and away once and for all). I distinctly remember a Toyota service representative telling me over the phone that TRD's printed instructions "[D]id not apply because the job only amounted to the removal of the main body of the OEM open lsd, followed by the installation in its place of the new TRD unit." [This was as reported by the technician assigned to my car.]
In other words, my mechanic just relied on ordinary tools (including heavy duty pullers). No dial-gauges, etc., required, thank you very much.]
[P.P.S: After the fact of my install, I notified several vendors that TRD's instructions were either unclear or inaccurate. I even emailed Quaife in England and TRD in California. Since then, I have noted that some published application specifications and installation remarks/notes and/or directions have been qualified or dropped altogether. I don't know if this was due to my feedback, but I would strongly recommend that you let your shop decide what additional parts - i.e., in addition to those in your TRD installation kit - should be ordered. Your car may be on the lift a couple of extra days, but I would urge you to do this right. M]
Last edited by millardmt; 12-12-2011 at 11:40 PM.
12-13-2011, 02:14 AM
#9
P.P.S: After the fact of my install, I notified several vendors that TRD's instructions were either unclear or inaccurate. I even emailed Quaife in England and TRD in California. Since then, I have noted that some published application specifications and installation remarks/notes and/or directions have been qualified or dropped altogether. I don't know if this was due to my feedback, but I would strongly recommend that you let your shop decide what additional parts - i.e., in addition to those in your TRD installation kit - should be ordered. Your car may be on the lift a couple of extra days, but I would urge you to do this right. M
12-13-2011, 07:10 AM
#10
I appreciate the warnings!
I'm fairly competent in my mechanic's abilities (he managed to shoe horn an rb into his land speed FC). He did say that he hasn't done one of these before, but is looking forward to taking it apart.
The car is in running conditon as of now, and It won't touch a lift until the diff is in the transmission.
I'm fairly competent in my mechanic's abilities (he managed to shoe horn an rb into his land speed FC). He did say that he hasn't done one of these before, but is looking forward to taking it apart.
The car is in running conditon as of now, and It won't touch a lift until the diff is in the transmission.
12-14-2011, 06:06 AM
#11
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Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Napa CA
Posts: 19
It seems like you are talking about manual transaxles only. I have seen a few automatic xB2's with noisy differentials. Mine is one of them it has a very noticeable whine that starts around 30mph up to 50mph. I will be fixing it soon. I havent seen any manual transaxle issues.
Last edited by MR_LUV; 02-08-2018 at 03:06 AM. Reason: typo
12-14-2011, 04:07 PM
#12
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 70
Mr.Fixer:
This is VERY interesting news.
As I've said, I've been trying too repress my memories of my personal LSD ordeal.
But now you mention it, I never did say my car has a manual transaxle when I encountered that one surly shop owner who'd maintained that Scion differentials have a short life span.
I've done a lot of clutch jobs but I've only done one on a FWD car - an 1962 Austin Mini 850 (which indicates my age, unfortunately). Since I've driven "stick-shift" vehicles by preference all my life, I know next to nothing about auto trannies no matter what their vintage. Never even had one apart. For that matter, I see no reason in theory why an LSD cannot be fitted to a Scion/Toyota auto tranny. Other manufacturers equip their auto-tranny cars (optionally or OEM) with LSDs.
I should say I'm very sorry about your current predicament, but - in the abstract - it seems awfully hard to believe that there can be anything intrinsically wrong with the design of the Scion 4-speed automatic transaxle. This transmission is in millions of cars and, not incidentally, there're more than a few insane people like ScionFred who have taxed their auto trannies way beyond their design limit.
But you say you know (or have heard of) others who also experience whining differentials. Is your car an especially early xB2? Has it received any substantial performance mods? Has it been abused to your knowledge? Most especially, do you know if your car has ever been driven with no tranny fluid? (Even for a short distance?)
I'm going to keep a close ear out for further news about this because I have two friends - also old geezers - who have auto xB2s. One of the cars has 80k miles.
Marc
(By the way, the transmission repair shop I first talked to about my LSD install, and which claimed Scions suffer disproportionately from differential failure, is named "DunhamTransmission[.com]." Note that I'm not trying to libel this company. To the contrary, they have an excellent rep here in Milwaukee. M)
This is VERY interesting news.
As I've said, I've been trying too repress my memories of my personal LSD ordeal.
But now you mention it, I never did say my car has a manual transaxle when I encountered that one surly shop owner who'd maintained that Scion differentials have a short life span.
I've done a lot of clutch jobs but I've only done one on a FWD car - an 1962 Austin Mini 850 (which indicates my age, unfortunately). Since I've driven "stick-shift" vehicles by preference all my life, I know next to nothing about auto trannies no matter what their vintage. Never even had one apart. For that matter, I see no reason in theory why an LSD cannot be fitted to a Scion/Toyota auto tranny. Other manufacturers equip their auto-tranny cars (optionally or OEM) with LSDs.
I should say I'm very sorry about your current predicament, but - in the abstract - it seems awfully hard to believe that there can be anything intrinsically wrong with the design of the Scion 4-speed automatic transaxle. This transmission is in millions of cars and, not incidentally, there're more than a few insane people like ScionFred who have taxed their auto trannies way beyond their design limit.
But you say you know (or have heard of) others who also experience whining differentials. Is your car an especially early xB2? Has it received any substantial performance mods? Has it been abused to your knowledge? Most especially, do you know if your car has ever been driven with no tranny fluid? (Even for a short distance?)
I'm going to keep a close ear out for further news about this because I have two friends - also old geezers - who have auto xB2s. One of the cars has 80k miles.
Marc
(By the way, the transmission repair shop I first talked to about my LSD install, and which claimed Scions suffer disproportionately from differential failure, is named "DunhamTransmission[.com]." Note that I'm not trying to libel this company. To the contrary, they have an excellent rep here in Milwaukee. M)
12-15-2011, 06:15 AM
#13
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Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Napa CA
Posts: 19
I work as a Tech in a Toyota dealership. I don't think all of the Scion diffs are bad or prone to failing. I have seen a few like three all automatics. Mine is a 2009 I bought it used with 53k miles. Before I owned it it was owned by Toyota and one of their reps drove it. I noticed the noise when I test drove it but new it would be covered by the powertrain warranty. It drives and shifts fine its just a little noisy. My car has no powertrain mods except TRD exhaust. I have no idea how it was driven for the first 53k. Now if we were talking about a newer RAV4 I would say those are prone to fail. There is a TSB for those for a diff whine.
Last edited by MR_LUV; 02-08-2018 at 03:08 AM. Reason: typo
10-15-2015, 03:51 PM
#14
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Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 26
I recently installed my Quaife ATB for tC/xB2...
My tranny is E351 i had no problems with the speedometer because my car reads the speed through the ABS sensors so there was no prob, check my other thread for pics...
My tranny is E351 i had no problems with the speedometer because my car reads the speed through the ABS sensors so there was no prob, check my other thread for pics...
Last edited by MR_LUV; 02-08-2018 at 03:09 AM. Reason: typo
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diff, differential, installation, instructions, manual, problems, quaife, scion, tc, tc2, toyota, tsb, whine, xb, xb2
