shizzzon

I just got done owning an 07 scion tc and now have a used 08 scion xb.

Just like the tC, the stock braking system is terrible.

I've driven several newer vehicles on the road lately all 2011+ from multiple manufacturers and they all have surplus braking performance.

Both of these scions braking performance seems very slow and gradual.

Can someone explain this to me?

The reason i ask is because the modifications i do to these vehicles involve adding ~1,500lbs of weight to them and if i'm not pleased with the breaking now.. Imagine how i feel later on down the road when i need to replace them for my application.


The thing i'm looking for is why is this?

I know the tC used 11" rotors on dual caliper pistons.

Is the caliper's surface area just small compared to other vehicles?
Is the brake pressure just terrible overall?
I've used Hawks pads before and they do not emulate no where close to other vehicle's performances.

I'm trying to find the reasons so i can better understand what area of the vehicle to attack wisely when upgrading the braking system in this xB.

DJ_FroZone

iTrader: (2)

i used http://brakeperformance.com/index.php

Got the drilled n slotted n premo pads. OH MAN THE POWA. otherwise new pads are awesome

shizzzon

When i upgraded my pads on the tC, yes, they were better.. but they were still not on the level of which i've experienced from other manufacturer's of vehicles...

I do not know how to personally go about researching this myself as to why i created this thread.

I can name all kinds of aftermarket access to brakes, rotors, calipers, etc....

I know it all exists, but why is Scion so inferior to the mainstream market of other manufacturers in braking performance?

I'm not looking for that's why Scion costs less.. I'm looking for an actual reason.
So i can make a wise decision and receive informative feedback to this issue at the same time to this topic.

xseveredveganx

Have you tried calling the Toyota engineers in Japan? I'm sure they could help you out.

Otherwise, I'm sure you could do some research and troubleshoot the car and make it to your liking. Maybe swap out your fluid, lines, and pads. This would make a dramatic improvement. The xB isn't a brand new WRX, STI, Evo, etc. My girlfriend's brakes on her Hyundai Accent feel about on-par as xB's were stock.

DJ_FroZone

iTrader: (2)

honestly the stock brakes felt on point to me coming from a minivan

shizzzon

I've driven the following that far exceed the response time and gripping power from initial and normal breaking in daily driving-

Dodge Sonic
Kia Rio
Nissan Altima
Ford F150
Pontiac G6
Ford Focus

draxcaliber

I've driven corvettes, porsches and BMW's and POS rental cars like PT Cruisers, Nissan Sentras, Scion xA's, toyota corollas and ford focus'. While the corvettes, porsches and BMWs have very jumpy brakes and good initial bite, that inspire huge confidence, compared to the tC, the tC has a very linear brake input, which is great for smoothness while driving, but when I had to stomp on it, they were strong and got the job done. They're even plenty strong for autocross.

before you continue bad mouthing Toyota for what you feel are "terrible brakes" why not check out some objective data like 60 mph to zero data from car mags and see how that compares.

bcp06tc

If you need better brakes, I would upgrade them. I don't have an answer as to why you feel the brakes are terrible, I think my braking performance on my tc is just fine. But if you plan on carrying around that much weight on a regular basis do some upgrades. Simple things like stainless lines and drilled and or slotted rotors and performance pads will make a huge difference.

gs_aristo

My brakes feel fine..and I'm coming from 4pot brakes on my other car. If you're adding 1500lbs of weight on this vehicle Id be more worried about axles and such.

draxcaliber

1500 pounds probably exceeds the GVWR of the car actually.

AAG

iTrader: (1)

There is nothing wrong with the stock brakes on the xb2. They work just fine and they STOP. I'm at 75k miles and still on the stock brakes too btw.

xseveredveganx

Then why didn't you purchase one of those amazing machines?
This. Add any considerable amount of weight to most any vehicle and things are going to change. Common sense tells me this.

shizzzon

Interesting how you guys think i'm "bad mouthing" the company, lol.

I was inquiring other people's opinions...

Anyways, there are reasons why i choose certain vehicles because they fit into certain applications.

Scions are one of them.

I wasn't speaking of performance AFTER modifications, but stock.. before any.

All of you seem to think the brakes are fine..
Well, they do make you stop when you need to, it's just too gradual of a feel when doing normal braking.

Since i have the xb2 now, i'll have to upgrade to 13" rotors again with quad or 8 piston calipers and lines, pads, etc...
This is simple. Low mileage tires= soft= faster stopping.

I know all the aftermarket requirements, was just curious on people's opinions but i guess it must just be me then.. I'm more sensitive to things like this.


And 1,500lbs of weight is nothing to worry about, lol.

We had 1,400lbs of weight in the tC plus driver and passenger traveling every other weekend to other states just fine. Our Gas Mileage was calculated to be 26mpg on the highway and 19 in the city. Pretty damn good if you ask me considering application.

All we had to do was to get it into a rolling position upon initial takeoff from a stopped position to proceed forward. The vehicle still had plenty of acceleration to stay in front of traffic, transmission was fine, Engine did not like steep hills so we allowed the engine to maintain steady rpms which would lower our mph about 5-10.

We keep it safe and our local dealership loved the car. I just couldnt keep it no more and swapped to the xb2 since they finally put a larger engine in it to accommodate these applications easier.

Our local Chassis Suspension shop builds cars for nationwide competitions which compete in Hydraulics, Air, etc....
I do not personally get into that but the goal of reinforcement is still the same.

We do plenty of research to ensure daily driving is plenty capable.

The weight is distributed in such a way that stress is not an issue.

We are actually looking at close to 2,000 lbs with the xb2 but we have yet to familiarize ourselves with the vehicle to even think about it.

We are going to have Randode make our Struts for us but the air springs he offers aren't strong enough.

We typically use Slam Specialties or the xtreme Firestone bags(what we call them, hehe)

Between those 2 companies, their burst ratings range from 600-750psi with fully allowable drive-able ratings up to 200psi fill capacity and 400psi maximum fill capacity(not recommended for driving over 200).

xseveredveganx

Too long, didn't read.


*edit: read* I've added roughly 350lbs to the weight of my car including speaker enclosure, D3100, subwoofer, etc. I don't feel that the car stops poorly. It doesn't stop as well as my 1997 Q45, but the Q45 is a different animal.

I thought the OEM tC used a single piston caliper...

shizzzon

i know the newer ones use dual up front. I can't remember 100% now if mine had em or not when it was stock.

criminaltc

Elephant in the room. Thank you. First thing I was going to rave about on that post. Not to mention complaining about stock brakes on anything after "adding 1500lbs"? Who says that, let alone, does that?

xseveredveganx

Someone with a BBW fetish?

criminaltc

What's your deal severedvegan? We've been on tons of posts together, what's up with this...?

xseveredveganx

'Ellifino.

stenger

For the record, there is a class action settlement being issued right now against toyota for poor brake feel, mpg claims, odd cruise control reactions. (I'm getting $120 if it settles. bank it!) Owning 3 Scions, I can say all the brakes feel normal Scion to me.

The xb1 was bad on hard stops and rough roads with stiff suspension. They just wanted to grab and let go (ABS reactions) too quickly.

The tC1 was ok, but again, with stiffer suspension, and hard braking on a rough road the response was bad. Under normal opp, the brakes were good, but sometimes they felt "weak" or "soft".

The xB2 (2011), has been soft under all conditions and stock suspension. But safe soft, not touchy or anything like that. Very predictable so to speak. However I've just ordered DF210's for my xb (after a week of having it, lol) and I'm sure braking will improve with less body roll/motion.

My guess of why Scion/Toyota brakes aren't like other cars: Brake booster vacuum. During heel-toe driving (5spd) you can keep the revs higher and create a good vacuum boost making the brake pedal more firm, giving you better brakes. Until you heat them up. Then they fade. But that's typical of any OEM rotor/pad system that's not a Brembo or similar upgrade like an STI/EVO/ECT has. So under normal opp, there is not enough vacuum being created to give the booster that stiff or firm pedal. But if you pump the brake a little, you'll feel it build up. Under normal driving, this is good because it will reduce the wear on your pads as the force being applied isn't full force or as greater of a force really needed to slow/stop the car.

More companies are going to dual or quad pod piston calipers. Cars are getting heavier and faster, so more brake pressure is needed than a single caliper can apply. Toyota though, being masters of making the most of what they have laying around have created the Scion cars with pretty much left overs from other cars. You look around and you can trace many parts to other cars sold around the US and world. The xB1 uses so many Yaris parts (including floor pans) it's almost the same car. So what can you expect? Speical brakes just or the US market of bad drivers?