What kind of cold air intake should i get?
07-17-2010, 09:59 AM
#21
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Ask yourself. Is your car faster in the winter? It isn't.
CAI are cosmetic adds that do nothing in real life. I'll beat ANYONE head to head with a CAI vs. stock if they have no driver training. Not being cocky, but you will NOT get anything from a CAI besides something to do on a weekend. Sorry, but despite the dismal dynos shown on manufacturers sites, besides forced induction, there is no substitute for basic training.
CAI are cosmetic adds that do nothing in real life. I'll beat ANYONE head to head with a CAI vs. stock if they have no driver training. Not being cocky, but you will NOT get anything from a CAI besides something to do on a weekend. Sorry, but despite the dismal dynos shown on manufacturers sites, besides forced induction, there is no substitute for basic training.
07-18-2010, 03:13 AM
#23
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Regarding the OP's question. I just picked up my XD yesterday as a commuter vehicle for my company. It had the most personality of the various cars i drove that would fit the category...
I'll be making a CAI tomorrow for it. While many of you might think this is ghetto - i'll be using 3" pvc and elbows for the task. I've done this for most of my drag cars, and will never look back. You'll find plenty of dedicated performance vehicles that have ABS plastic and phenolic intake manifolds for the heat transfer benefits, (abs differs from pvc in it's heat distortion limits - hence why pvc and hdpe can't be used for intake parts that actually touch the heads).
I'll pre-empt the commentary by adding that pvc has a good many advantages in an engine bay - mainly in heat transfer. You won't heat-soak a pvc pipe... and a CAI is only as good as the temperatures it can grant at the throttle body... and most CAI's that have uninsulated or un-wrapped metal up to that point will also be blazingly hot from engine bay heat soak.
Another advantage is price - unless you're friendly with a mandrel bender. Lastly, is strength. though brittle - pvc is stronger than the 18 gauge aluminum most intakes are built out of... but if you crush it, it breaks, whereas the thin-sheet aluminum will bend and can be banged back into shape. there are arguments for both sides of the argument, and a wrapped thicker gauge metal intake is a must for boosted applications, for instance... but my chopice for a fun daily commuter will be pvc.
Anyways - i'll put some pics up tomorrow. The finished product, when hi-temp painted won't look as good as a polished aluminum pipe, but will be functional, cheap, and won't look out of place either.
(a sidenote - the gasses released by polyvinyl chloride are a propane derivative, which while insignificant in this case - is interesting to note that propane and other chemical derivatives are used as an additional cooling agent, especially in high pressure boosted diesels.)
Well, actually - it is. I could bore you with the specifics of how any modern ecu adjusts timing on the fly based on input from several sensors including but not limited to knock, maf, (map, vaf, maf+p, or whatever your particular engine might have) and how those measurements relate to overall air metering and air fuel mixing... I could also bore you with the realities of thermodynamics and how it relates to air temperature... but I won't.
I will simply say that a properly designed cool air induction will yield better results than a factory box for a few reasons - air temperatures included. (less restrictive flow is another)
I will also offer in to evidence the fact that my 5.9L (slight overbore - so its now a 5.99L lol) jeep with a good amount of bolt-ons and bolt-ins (headers, exhaust, intake, intake manifold, and 1-step-down roller rockers.) will run consistent 13.7's from mid october until whenever they close the track (usually early-mid december) and with the exact same mods, will not break out of the 14.0/14.1's in august on a hot day.
so the short answer is: yes, a given car does run faster in the winter* assuming you can give it access to outside ambient air, and it doesn't have some sort of electronic crippling system that will pull timing to keep emissions under control in the winter
** one caveat might be the 10-15% ethanol mix many states get in the winter. Though ethanol has a higher absolute octane rating - it has a lower energy-per-volume rating than gasoline. In a given volume of winter gas that has ethanol - you're taking a slight hit in the total energy potential of the gas. I'll usually bump up an octane level to help counteract (assuming your ecu can take advantage of it) or will (in the case of my turbo car) add touline/xylene into the mix and not worry much.
also - something i've learned in 10 years on a race track (drag, autox and road course) that you might benefit from - you're never as good of a driver as you think you are... in fact - its likely you're far worse. An ego check (especially when you're wrong) is an EXCELLENT addition to basic training - fyi.
Depends. You can see an increase in mileage - but only if the stock intake was so restrictive that the engine had to work harder just to maintain highway speeds, or you had to dip into the gas pedal deeper or more often trying to accelerate to speed.
In most cases - mileage goes down - chiefly because the mindset of a person attaching a performance intake to his car is such that he'll be pressing the gas pedal more often ;)
assuming no change in driving - mileage shouldn't go down, and can potentially increase... but i wouldn't buy any sort of CAI for its gas savings, if that's what you're after.
I'll be making a CAI tomorrow for it. While many of you might think this is ghetto - i'll be using 3" pvc and elbows for the task. I've done this for most of my drag cars, and will never look back. You'll find plenty of dedicated performance vehicles that have ABS plastic and phenolic intake manifolds for the heat transfer benefits, (abs differs from pvc in it's heat distortion limits - hence why pvc and hdpe can't be used for intake parts that actually touch the heads).
I'll pre-empt the commentary by adding that pvc has a good many advantages in an engine bay - mainly in heat transfer. You won't heat-soak a pvc pipe... and a CAI is only as good as the temperatures it can grant at the throttle body... and most CAI's that have uninsulated or un-wrapped metal up to that point will also be blazingly hot from engine bay heat soak.
Another advantage is price - unless you're friendly with a mandrel bender. Lastly, is strength. though brittle - pvc is stronger than the 18 gauge aluminum most intakes are built out of... but if you crush it, it breaks, whereas the thin-sheet aluminum will bend and can be banged back into shape. there are arguments for both sides of the argument, and a wrapped thicker gauge metal intake is a must for boosted applications, for instance... but my chopice for a fun daily commuter will be pvc.
Anyways - i'll put some pics up tomorrow. The finished product, when hi-temp painted won't look as good as a polished aluminum pipe, but will be functional, cheap, and won't look out of place either.
(a sidenote - the gasses released by polyvinyl chloride are a propane derivative, which while insignificant in this case - is interesting to note that propane and other chemical derivatives are used as an additional cooling agent, especially in high pressure boosted diesels.)
Well, actually - it is. I could bore you with the specifics of how any modern ecu adjusts timing on the fly based on input from several sensors including but not limited to knock, maf, (map, vaf, maf+p, or whatever your particular engine might have) and how those measurements relate to overall air metering and air fuel mixing... I could also bore you with the realities of thermodynamics and how it relates to air temperature... but I won't.
I will simply say that a properly designed cool air induction will yield better results than a factory box for a few reasons - air temperatures included. (less restrictive flow is another)
I will also offer in to evidence the fact that my 5.9L (slight overbore - so its now a 5.99L lol) jeep with a good amount of bolt-ons and bolt-ins (headers, exhaust, intake, intake manifold, and 1-step-down roller rockers.) will run consistent 13.7's from mid october until whenever they close the track (usually early-mid december) and with the exact same mods, will not break out of the 14.0/14.1's in august on a hot day.
so the short answer is: yes, a given car does run faster in the winter* assuming you can give it access to outside ambient air, and it doesn't have some sort of electronic crippling system that will pull timing to keep emissions under control in the winter
** one caveat might be the 10-15% ethanol mix many states get in the winter. Though ethanol has a higher absolute octane rating - it has a lower energy-per-volume rating than gasoline. In a given volume of winter gas that has ethanol - you're taking a slight hit in the total energy potential of the gas. I'll usually bump up an octane level to help counteract (assuming your ecu can take advantage of it) or will (in the case of my turbo car) add touline/xylene into the mix and not worry much.
also - something i've learned in 10 years on a race track (drag, autox and road course) that you might benefit from - you're never as good of a driver as you think you are... in fact - its likely you're far worse. An ego check (especially when you're wrong) is an EXCELLENT addition to basic training - fyi.
Does this not improve mpgs? or does this only make a fine line between better mpgs and gross mpgs?
In most cases - mileage goes down - chiefly because the mindset of a person attaching a performance intake to his car is such that he'll be pressing the gas pedal more often ;)
assuming no change in driving - mileage shouldn't go down, and can potentially increase... but i wouldn't buy any sort of CAI for its gas savings, if that's what you're after.
Last edited by Goatcrapp; 07-18-2010 at 03:25 AM.
07-18-2010, 09:52 AM
#24
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As goat said do not buy for MPG alone, say the intake cost $200 it would take probably take around 50K+ miles to fully recoup the money you spent on the intake and to actually start seeing a benefit from it. He is also 110% correct on the PVC thing, it is hilarious to see 20K engines at the track with painted PVC intakes but it does work. This may explain why Lingenfelter Performance Engineering makes no metal intakes. I look forward to see what length piping and elbows you use goat cause I would be lying if I said I was not gonna copy your design lol.
07-19-2010, 12:07 AM
#25
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Well - today's session was fruitless. The O.D of the xd's throttle body, maf, and etc are odd diameters - the closest match being a 2.5" schedule 40 pipe.
Unfortunately, while it exists, its not a very common size. Lowes and HD didn't have any - and the plumbing supply shops i wanted to check out are closed on sundays.
I did buy some 3" pipe, and the necessary adapters, to try and make it work - but it really was looking too clunky, and wouldn't have slid behind the headlight down into the fender as nicely as i would want - so i'll be returning the stuff.
I'll try and find something during the middle of the week - in the meantime, i've ordered silicon tubing which i will cut into couplers as needed. it was cheaper buying by the foot than buying individual couplers.
Another option i might investigate is flexible pvc. think of it as a really thick coupler - lol. I'd need to determine if its durable enough, and how the flex additive affects it's heat deformation rating (don't want the stuff to become malleable with engine bay temps, and collapse.)
as for lengths - I'm not a huge fan of just dropping things down to, or past the splash guard - that's asking for trouble with puddles. What i'm planning - though this might change as i start working - is a 45 degree bend off the throttle body (which is angled about 30 degrees upward) - the maf as close to perpendicular to the ground as possible, followed by 8" to a foot or so across the engine bay towards the fender. It'll need another bend right before this, but it looks like it will tuck down very nicely over there behind the headlight. I'll try to throw a 60 degree bend, and another 8" or so of piping, so that with the filter on the end of it - it would sit behind the plastic bumper insert that's right there...
I can then either use mesh to replace, or cut slits in the oem piece to allow fresh air in. From what i see - it won't need a lot to seal it off from the engine bay either - a couple of pieces of 6/6 nylon panels, some weather strip and sealant, and it should be good to go.
I can see 3 places where pipe hangers (or straps, or whatever you feel looks best) can be used with stock bolts for support, and thus a clean install look. The battery hook is one, the facotry air box bracket bolts are the other two, and potentially one more down in the fender - i'll have to see when i open the bumper insert.
As always - i would also modify the valve cover vent to include an oil separator, or simply vent it to atmosphere.
Unfortunately, while it exists, its not a very common size. Lowes and HD didn't have any - and the plumbing supply shops i wanted to check out are closed on sundays.
I did buy some 3" pipe, and the necessary adapters, to try and make it work - but it really was looking too clunky, and wouldn't have slid behind the headlight down into the fender as nicely as i would want - so i'll be returning the stuff.
I'll try and find something during the middle of the week - in the meantime, i've ordered silicon tubing which i will cut into couplers as needed. it was cheaper buying by the foot than buying individual couplers.
Another option i might investigate is flexible pvc. think of it as a really thick coupler - lol. I'd need to determine if its durable enough, and how the flex additive affects it's heat deformation rating (don't want the stuff to become malleable with engine bay temps, and collapse.)
as for lengths - I'm not a huge fan of just dropping things down to, or past the splash guard - that's asking for trouble with puddles. What i'm planning - though this might change as i start working - is a 45 degree bend off the throttle body (which is angled about 30 degrees upward) - the maf as close to perpendicular to the ground as possible, followed by 8" to a foot or so across the engine bay towards the fender. It'll need another bend right before this, but it looks like it will tuck down very nicely over there behind the headlight. I'll try to throw a 60 degree bend, and another 8" or so of piping, so that with the filter on the end of it - it would sit behind the plastic bumper insert that's right there...
I can then either use mesh to replace, or cut slits in the oem piece to allow fresh air in. From what i see - it won't need a lot to seal it off from the engine bay either - a couple of pieces of 6/6 nylon panels, some weather strip and sealant, and it should be good to go.
I can see 3 places where pipe hangers (or straps, or whatever you feel looks best) can be used with stock bolts for support, and thus a clean install look. The battery hook is one, the facotry air box bracket bolts are the other two, and potentially one more down in the fender - i'll have to see when i open the bumper insert.
As always - i would also modify the valve cover vent to include an oil separator, or simply vent it to atmosphere.
07-19-2010, 03:08 AM
#27
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goat, thank youuuuuuu. very insightful, and im very curious to see how your pvc turns out. its definitely would be cheaper to go that route, im just not too good with cars so in my mind, the best option would to buy those overly priced brand names lol
thanks everybody, :D
and as of now, im still debating on buying the injen cai or not lol. i have a quote from a shop near me hwo can order it for 250. anyone know of a place to get it cheaper? also...new question since ive been researching. is the injen cai street legal in oregon? i see alot of sites that contradict eachother. so im not too sure
thanks everybody, :D
and as of now, im still debating on buying the injen cai or not lol. i have a quote from a shop near me hwo can order it for 250. anyone know of a place to get it cheaper? also...new question since ive been researching. is the injen cai street legal in oregon? i see alot of sites that contradict eachother. so im not too sure
07-19-2010, 04:19 AM
#28
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07-28-2010, 04:40 PM
#30
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According to the tracking numbers - my flex pvc and silicone tube will arrive some time today (unless UPS brings the suck, as usual) and my silicon reducers should arrive tomorrow - just in time for a weekend's modding!
I went with flex PVC for a few reasons - I was able to find smooth flex pvc (instead of ribbed, which is more flexible, but not smooth on the inside.), it allows for a cleaner look (without having to add the rigid bands, i can avoid the clunky "hump" look that rigid pvc would have) and it can be made hard enough to clamp couplers and the filter, as necessary (heating it with a torch (large flame oxy, not small flame propane) - in a well ventilated area, please - will make it at first, more flexy, but it will cool more rigid than it was - i'll experiment with forming it and then hardening the entire thing.)
If the flex stuff isn't suitable for this application (because of the underhood heat, and high vibration environment) i'll post that too - don't want to lead anyone astray here - it'll be my first time working with flex pvc in this application.)
More to follow.
to address the other issues - its kind of an in-between step between scrap vs. brand name metal intakes. Its not designed to be dirt cheap - for that you can just stick a filter on the end of the MAF, and be done with it - the xd actually gets a nice aggressive note with an open filter. A decent cone filter will also flow more, so even with a warm air intake like that you'd likely still see gains.
Its intended to be a cheaper-than-branded intakes, but not bargain basement (total will be approximately 50-60.00 if using flex pvc and silicon) - most importantly it will be functional and be more resistant to the heatsoaking that metal intakes have.)
I went with flex PVC for a few reasons - I was able to find smooth flex pvc (instead of ribbed, which is more flexible, but not smooth on the inside.), it allows for a cleaner look (without having to add the rigid bands, i can avoid the clunky "hump" look that rigid pvc would have) and it can be made hard enough to clamp couplers and the filter, as necessary (heating it with a torch (large flame oxy, not small flame propane) - in a well ventilated area, please - will make it at first, more flexy, but it will cool more rigid than it was - i'll experiment with forming it and then hardening the entire thing.)
If the flex stuff isn't suitable for this application (because of the underhood heat, and high vibration environment) i'll post that too - don't want to lead anyone astray here - it'll be my first time working with flex pvc in this application.)
More to follow.
to address the other issues - its kind of an in-between step between scrap vs. brand name metal intakes. Its not designed to be dirt cheap - for that you can just stick a filter on the end of the MAF, and be done with it - the xd actually gets a nice aggressive note with an open filter. A decent cone filter will also flow more, so even with a warm air intake like that you'd likely still see gains.
Its intended to be a cheaper-than-branded intakes, but not bargain basement (total will be approximately 50-60.00 if using flex pvc and silicon) - most importantly it will be functional and be more resistant to the heatsoaking that metal intakes have.)
Last edited by Goatcrapp; 07-28-2010 at 04:53 PM.
07-28-2010, 08:11 PM
#31
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Ask yourself. Is your car faster in the winter? It isn't.
CAI are cosmetic adds that do nothing in real life. I'll beat ANYONE head to head with a CAI vs. stock if they have no driver training. Not being cocky, but you will NOT get anything from a CAI besides something to do on a weekend. Sorry, but despite the dismal dynos shown on manufacturers sites, besides forced induction, there is no substitute for basic training.
CAI are cosmetic adds that do nothing in real life. I'll beat ANYONE head to head with a CAI vs. stock if they have no driver training. Not being cocky, but you will NOT get anything from a CAI besides something to do on a weekend. Sorry, but despite the dismal dynos shown on manufacturers sites, besides forced induction, there is no substitute for basic training.
07-28-2010, 08:30 PM
#32
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this guy cracks me up he on just about every aftermarket part post stating that aftermarket parts are useless lol ok ill take my fully upgraded xd full exhaust intake u-pulley and all and race a pro driver in the 1/4 mile in a stock xd and we will see who wins k i will take the time to do this if u set it up lol
While a cold air intake might produce minimal gains, colder air does make your motor produce more power to an extent.
basically what it comes down to is colder air is denser and contains more oxygen parts, and more oxygen creates a better combustion. but too cold is not good either (cold winters), you make it harder for the engine to reach its best running temerature.
(edit: I just noticed this was already covered, hahaha, shoulda read more)
On the note of the strut tower bar, its a Tanabe, and can be ordered through Tanabe , or at least you used to be able to (i imagine it hasnt been discontinued). It's a nice piece, but be ready to have a hard time getting it mounted unless:
a) you have coilovers and therefore a smaller front suspension assembly. (like me)
b) you are in the middle of changing springs or struts and can get your hand in there freely
c) you dont mind pulling your front suspension down to get your hand up in there.
Last edited by xDTool; 07-28-2010 at 08:34 PM. Reason: added
08-06-2010, 06:05 PM
#33
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Ok - this should have been done last weekend, but my couplers are stuck in a UPS depot in atlanta for "service exception" - a phone call shows the package has been damaged, and is pending review before it can be re-packed and released for delivery.
Hint, UPS: stop slam dunking my packages like a basketball, and i wouldn't have this problem.
anyways - the more important part of this equation - the flex pvc has been here... i think i'm going to just move forward with mocking it up using rubber plumbing couplers... get a head start at least.
Hint, UPS: stop slam dunking my packages like a basketball, and i wouldn't have this problem.
anyways - the more important part of this equation - the flex pvc has been here... i think i'm going to just move forward with mocking it up using rubber plumbing couplers... get a head start at least.
08-12-2010, 07:12 PM
#34
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08-12-2010, 07:17 PM
#35
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08-12-2010, 09:18 PM
#36
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I've given up on my silicon couplers. I'm ordering more from someplace else.
Here's what i have mocked up so far. its 2.5" i.d flexible pvc. Its flex is at best a gentle curve - but it'll work. I'm having a friend fab up a bracket that will support everything, but for now i'm using a standard pipe hanger, hung off the battery bracket.
With some boil-stretching it'll snug over the throttle body (1 less coupler to worry about leaking/ cracking) and potentially the MAF small side. (i'd be nervous forcing it, so i'll have to experiment with stretching) - ideally, there will be no couplers between the TB and MAF (i originally planned on 2 couplers)
There's no getting around a coupler/reducer for the big end of the MAF however... its a hair smaller than 3".
Now - you might say - why not go with 3" from that point forward.. a few reasons. a> it won't matter. what larger pipe improves in volume - it sacrifices in velocity. You're only as good as you're smallest link (in this case, the TB) - i'd stick with velocity, personally, based on my experiences with both high torque v8's and high rpm turbo 6 cylinders.
b> fitment. its a tight squeeze behind the headlight as is... thinwall metal can squeeze through - but then we're back to the heatsoak issue. thicker pvc will be a little too cumbersome. The filter choices are also limited to either larger diameter filters (won't be able to get it as close to the front cold air opening) or longer thinner cone styles which will work, but add more weight to the pipe. I'm also going to see how difficult it would be to isolate that area from the engine bay - shouldn't be very difficult, but i'm not sure it'll be worth the effort.
I went with an off the shelf spectre for fitment.. I may stop there since i actually think spectre filters are decent - but i have this setup earmarked for an apexi power filter - i love those. ( but wasn't going to bang one up while test fitting)
anyways - you can see the fitment in the pics.... it'll replace the stock rubber between the tb and maf - i'm torn on whether or not i'll put the recirc hose back on.. i may vent it to atmosphere, using a mini filter, and save my IM from gunking up.. or i may decide to pacify the greenies and just include it. The good thing about flex pvc is that i can tap ijn a fitting with no problem either way.
from the MAF it'll continue down behind the headlight, and drop the filter right behind the driver's side lower grill plastic. I need to find a decent way of turning that into an actual vent - without going with the mesh look (looks cheap IMO - no offense to anyone)
Here's what i have mocked up so far. its 2.5" i.d flexible pvc. Its flex is at best a gentle curve - but it'll work. I'm having a friend fab up a bracket that will support everything, but for now i'm using a standard pipe hanger, hung off the battery bracket.
With some boil-stretching it'll snug over the throttle body (1 less coupler to worry about leaking/ cracking) and potentially the MAF small side. (i'd be nervous forcing it, so i'll have to experiment with stretching) - ideally, there will be no couplers between the TB and MAF (i originally planned on 2 couplers)
There's no getting around a coupler/reducer for the big end of the MAF however... its a hair smaller than 3".
Now - you might say - why not go with 3" from that point forward.. a few reasons. a> it won't matter. what larger pipe improves in volume - it sacrifices in velocity. You're only as good as you're smallest link (in this case, the TB) - i'd stick with velocity, personally, based on my experiences with both high torque v8's and high rpm turbo 6 cylinders.
b> fitment. its a tight squeeze behind the headlight as is... thinwall metal can squeeze through - but then we're back to the heatsoak issue. thicker pvc will be a little too cumbersome. The filter choices are also limited to either larger diameter filters (won't be able to get it as close to the front cold air opening) or longer thinner cone styles which will work, but add more weight to the pipe. I'm also going to see how difficult it would be to isolate that area from the engine bay - shouldn't be very difficult, but i'm not sure it'll be worth the effort.
I went with an off the shelf spectre for fitment.. I may stop there since i actually think spectre filters are decent - but i have this setup earmarked for an apexi power filter - i love those. ( but wasn't going to bang one up while test fitting)
anyways - you can see the fitment in the pics.... it'll replace the stock rubber between the tb and maf - i'm torn on whether or not i'll put the recirc hose back on.. i may vent it to atmosphere, using a mini filter, and save my IM from gunking up.. or i may decide to pacify the greenies and just include it. The good thing about flex pvc is that i can tap ijn a fitting with no problem either way.
from the MAF it'll continue down behind the headlight, and drop the filter right behind the driver's side lower grill plastic. I need to find a decent way of turning that into an actual vent - without going with the mesh look (looks cheap IMO - no offense to anyone)
Last edited by Goatcrapp; 08-12-2010 at 09:53 PM.
