I've had the rear swaybar on the car for quite a while. It installed faster than kitchen help can run when asked to show a green card. And everything seemed to fit great. So today, finally, I decided to put on the front sway bar.

Well, first, the instructions suck. Those black and white pictures are crap -- they wouldn't look any worse if I had double cataract -- and the instructions failed to mention some of the bolt sizes. The latter point made me think the instructions weren't written for the xB, but the pictures pretty much looked like an xB.

So then, I get the new bar into place -- and for anyone thinking about doing this, getting the old bar off is about as easy as quantum physics -- and then the Hotchkiss brackets that hold the bar to the cradle were definately not going to work. I managed to modify the passenger side bracket with my grinder, but the driver's side bracket will not work at all because the steering rack is in the way. The stock Scion bracket has something on the order of a 1/2" to 5/8" on either side of the upside down "U" where the screws go. The Hotchkis bracket has somewhere between 1" to 1 1/2" on either side of the upside down "U." It seems to be a universal type of clamp, and this means that I would have to cut a lot of that off in order to make it work, and the results wouldn't give me any confidence in the installtion. I really started questioning why the hell should I have to modify a part to get this damn bar on?

I dunno, I am thinking that either the wrong bar/bracket combo got thrown in the box, or this thing is a real piece of crap. Anyone have this experience? How did this thing fit on your car? I was so frustrated and so ____ed I could have impaled Jesus with my torque wrench.

>--
Peckhammer

 

I just had this part installed on my car last week.
There should be no motification to any parts on the car.
I know you have to drop the engine cardle down about two inches in order to remove the stock sway bar and replace it.

 

You might have put the wrong brackets on the back. I know that on the tC the front and rear bushing brackets are different.

 

How much was the install?

 

I still have this part sitting in my garage. I almost had it installed one day, I just couldn't get the power steering unit loosened. But oh well. I was quoted $120 to have it installed at a local shop. I think I'm just going to wait until I get my impact wrench to do it. That'll teach that stubborn bolt.

 

A friend did it for me so it wasnt much.
It took close to 3 hours.

 

Well, this shouldn't be rocket surgery, but it sure felt like it. I found a picture that sort of demonstrates the problem: http://groups.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=MyPhotos_GetPubPhoto&PhotoID=nGQAAAAkHhEOOkw6d!P5lXGE1azHKMWXWO15eu99Qbnx4wl2Q84yTqxPYHo7!qy*C
More pics here: http://groups.msn.com/Sorensonbrian/...isswaybar.msnw

Anyway, notice how long those brackets are. The installer for that job also seemed to encounter something I did: the screws are so close to the bracket that they look angled inward. I could not get a 12mm socket on them because they were so close, and at that angle, you stand a good chance of stripping thread IMO.

That installer also approached the install differently. He removed way more stuff than called for in the hotckiss instructions. Still, the biggest problem in my attempt was the fact that the long shoulders on those backets meant they would interfere with the steering box on the drivers side, and part of the CV/axle setup on the passenger side. I was able to modify the passenger bracket without much worry, but the driver's side bracket seemed to need way too much modification.

Here are a pic of the brackets: http://tinyurl.com/ao2a5

Notice that the left bracket has a notch out of the side. I did that so it cleared the motor mount or whatever was in the way. If you cut off one half of the shoulder (about the spot where my grinding stopped on left bracket -- or about 1/2 inch -- the bracket would work on the driver's side. Otherwise, the steering rack is in the way -- and that is why Scion's bracket has a 1/2 inch shoulder, compared to the 1 1/4" Hotchkiss shoulder.

Bottom line: The Hotchkiss "Universal Bracket" aint so universal.

 

Did you complete the install?
I may have to refere you to a friend that has installed 3 of these with no worries. Ill have to find his screen name.

 

No, I didn't complete it. I put the stock bar back on. I woudn't mind speaking to someone that did a few of these, though.

Thanks,

Peckhammer

 

And today... I called my Scion Dealer for an install estimate. Price was ~$400, which included the apparently necessary post-install front end alignment. All things considered, I would caution anyone attempting this at home.

So my plan includes the following:

1.) call someone that has done this before to get some install tips;
2.) either find a shop that can do the install and alignment for $200, or install the bar myself and take it to the Scion dealer for an alignment;
3.) Give Hotchkiss an ___-kicking. Not only are the instructions WRONG in details, they also seem to have all the wrong torque values. Every nut is listed as roughly DOUBLE what the Scion service manual seems to indicate.

Now... I have called Hotchkiss and they seem to question their own torque values. The person I spoke to said that he thinks they shouldn't even put those torque values in the instructions. And he suggested extra steps to me that are not detailed in the instructions. He even suggested putting the clamps in a vice to bend the bracket inward so that you can get a wrench on the bolts. Yes... they admit that the bolt placement is precariously close to the bracket. And yes, the manufacturer thinks that you need to modify the bracket. BUYER BEWARE!!!

What a miserable experience!

 

That's why I recommend the Progress rear bar and new endlinks for up front. No hassles with the install, and you save over $125 just but not having to deal the front bar install.

 

Thread?

 

After so much frustration and bruised knuckles, I took the box to Speedware Motorsports in Redmond, WA. These guys are great installers and work on some serious cars. They did a great job fabbing stuff to install the Recaro seats in my former ride, so I knew I could count on them.

3.5 hours later, and a nearly $400 hit to my credit card, the front swaybar is installed. The installer had to modify the driver's side bracket in exactly the same way that I did for the passenger side. IOW, had I known that you need to modify the parts to finish the job, I would have finished it myself. And after talking to Hotchkis, it seems obvious to me that they have never tested this product, from an install standpoint, on a Scion xB.

Here are my final words:

1. The instructions are wrong. Dangerously wrong -- especially the torque values;
2. When you spend this kind of money, you should not need to modify parts, or if you have to, you should be told about it before you buy the product;
3. An install tip is to put the clamps in a vice and compress the shoulders inward so that when you go to bolt the clamp to the frame, you can get a wrench on it. Yes, I am suggesting that you bend the clamps! Also be sure to grind or cut the clamps so they clear the steering components;
4. Get a front-end alignment after the installation -- another thing HOTCHKIS FAILS TO MENTION; and
5. When it's all finished, you will notice a significant improvement in handling. The box handles fantastic now! The font and rear bars are a perfect match.

 

 

so ou have a noticable diffrence with your sway bars? iam hearing for the xb to install just the rear . but everyone is ranting that the progressive sway bar is better than the hotchkis because it is thicker.

 

I have the stage one TVS kit on my 05 xB and I didn't have that problem I don't know if there is a change from 06 and the 05 but I did the install at my uncle's shop on a lift and the tools I needed. I also heard that Hotchkis has a thicker rear bar in the works I dont know the thickness of it but I know it will soon be offered. I can't wait

 

I keep wanting to call you Beetlejuice

It really all depends on what you want. The more resistance an anti-sway bar has to torsion, then the more it will help keep the inside wheel on the ground during a turn. All things being equal (material and solid bar or tube), then the thicker bars will resist torsion more.

A rear bar will keep the rear suspension better balanced (tighter) during turns, likewise for the front.

I think what happens is that whichever end is looser will cause the inside wheel on the opposite end to lose pressure to the ground (because the looseness is allowing the car chassis to roll and the tighter suspension end will not be able to allow the inside wheel to travel enough to compensate for the roll).

When the rear is better balanced, then the loss of traction will be transferred to the rear. Similarly, it follows for the front.

If you want to drift, then you probably only want to improve the rear. I am running two inches lower with a rear bar and it is awesome. I drifted a little for the first time today. Generally, my setup does not drift and the steering is very tight.

If you want to improve handling without any specific goal in mind, then I would recommend the same setup that I have.
Next, if you want more, I would say that you should improve your wheels (I am still running stock).
If you find that your rear end is too loose in the turns after that, then look into a front bar. At that point, look into shocks and struts too.

 

I put the Hotchkis TVS system on my ride a couple of weeks ago and had no trouble what so ever. I did the sway bars in about 2 hrs and the springs in about 1 hr. I could not be happier with the setup so far.