SAE Revises Horsepower Claims, Toyota Fares Poorly
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SAE Revises Horsepower Claims, Toyota Fares Poorly
An article in today's Detroit News:
Toyota, Honda must fess up to less vroom
New testing standards force carmakers to reduce claims
Nick Bunkley / The Detroit News / March 13, 2006
It turns out Toyota Motor Corp. isn't as strong as it appears in at least one area -- under the hood.
Testing under stricter new horsepower standards reveals that most of the models in Toyota's lineup have less oomph than the company has advertised. Even though the engines are unchanged, the automaker had to lower the horsepower ratings on all but few 2006 Toyota, Lexus and Scion models. The reductions range from 4 to 20 horsepower compared with 2005 models.
Honda Motor Co., the No. 2 Japanese automaker, also has downgraded the horsepower ratings on several models, including most of its Acura luxury brand.
But while the Japanese automakers overstated their power, an analysis of data compiled by Edmunds.com shows domestic vehicles have generally been testing at or slightly above previously stated horsepower. The testing suggests Detroit's automakers may have suffered unfairly in the battle of perceptions.
While drivers may not notice the difference, said George Peterson, president of consulting firm AutoPacific Inc, "it does matter to the manufacturers because each one is engaged in what I would call a brochure war where they're competing for the best specifications. And the average American likes a bigger horsepower number than a smaller one."
Most notably for Toyota, the rating for its top-selling Camry, when equipped with a 3.3-liter V-6 engine, had to be reduced to 190 horsepower from 210.
The V-6 version of Toyota's Highlander sport utility vehicle dropped from 230 to 215, and the Lexus LS and SC 430 decreased by 12.
The revised ratings comply with standards adopted by the Society of Automotive Engineers.
The standards specify which components and accessories should be on during testing and what kind of oil and fuel to use. To claim an SAE-certified rating, an automaker also must conduct tests in the presence of an independent witness.
"The intent of the revision was to tighten up the specifications," said Gary Pollak, an SAE program manager. "There were a lot of areas that were loose and subject to interpretation."
Peterson doesn't expect Toyota or Honda to face the same kind of backlash that Hyundai Motor Co. did after inflating the horsepower ratings of its U.S. vehicles by as much as 10 percent for more than a decade. The South Korea-based automaker agreed in 2004 to pay $30 million to settle a lawsuit filed on behalf of 858,000 owners.
But for consumers who covet powerful engines and allow horsepower ratings to influence which vehicles they purchase, the revisions could chip away at Honda and Toyota's reputations.
Consumers haven't taken kindly to overhyped claims.
In 2001, Nissan Motor Co. came under fire after overstating the acceleration of its Infiniti Q45 sedan. Ford Motor Co. admitted overstating the horsepower rating of its 1999 Mustang Cobra R, and Mazda Motor Corp. did the same with the 2001 Miata roadster. Buyers of both cars were offered compensation.
The new rating also could make some vehicles less appealing to consumers who start shopping by researching specifications on the Internet. The V-6 Camry's 190 horsepower pales next to competitors such as the 221-horsepower Ford Fusion, although that will change soon when the 2007 Camry is introduced with 268 horses.
Toyota spokesman John McCandless noted that the company was proactive in testing all of its vehicles under the new standards.
"We've never really been big on promoting horsepower," McCandless said. "The proof in the pudding is driving the car."
Darren Seeman, who runs the Web sites ToyotaLife.com, LexusLife.com and ScionLife.com from home in Portland, Ore., doesn't think people who bought a Toyota before the latest tests were conducted will feel misled or cheated. "Honestly, I don't think a lot of people buy a Toyota brand for the horsepower," said Seeman, 29. While Toyota and Honda have subjected their entire lineups to the new standards, Detroit's automakers are mostly retesting vehicles with new powertrains.
Eventually, all vehicles are expected to be rated according to the new standards.
"What we put in place were pretty much common practice at GM, and at Ford and Chrysler as well," said Dave Lancaster, a technical fellow at General Motors Corp. who chaired the committee that developed the standards. GM has submitted results from 11 engine lines -- covering popular vehicles such as the Chevrolet Malibu and Impala, Pontiac G6 and Cadillac DTS -- to SAE for certification. The tests bumped up the horsepower ratings for the Malibu, Impala and G6 by 1 for 2006.
DaimlerChrysler AG has retested its higher-performance vehicles, including the Dodge Viper and those equipped with a Hemi engine. The Viper went from 500 horsepower to 510, while the ratings for most others changed less than 4 percent, Chrysler Group spokesman Cole Quinnell said.
Under the previous guidelines, Quinnell said, "a lot of times we chose to publish a number that was lower than what another manufacturer might choose."
Ford has found virtually no changes in testing under the new standards. Company officials say the new 3.5-liter V-6 planned for the 2007 Ford Edge, Lincoln MKX and Lincoln MKZ will provide at least the 250 horsepower it has promised.
"It's not in our best interest to give customers an inaccurate picture of what kind of power their car has," Ford spokesman Nick Twork said.
Honda saw the horsepower ratings on the Odyssey minivan and Pilot SUV fall from 255 to 244. The CR-V and Element went from 160 to 156. Various Accord styles had slight gains. Six of the seven Acura models were downgraded, including the RL, TL and MDX.
Honda spokesman Chuck Schifsky said the company wanted to be up-front with customers by retesting all of its vehicles, even though that meant reducing many of the horsepower ratings. "We're still pretty darn competitive with all of our vehicles, even with the new specs," Schifsky said.
Honda and Toyota have been educating dealers about the changes. Dan Hurd, a salesman at LaFontaine Toyota in Dearborn, said, "They're more concerned with the drive and the fit and finish."
Seeman, who operates the Web sites, said he doesn't feel any differently about his Lexus SC 430 knowing that it was downgraded from 300 horsepower to 288. "I'm still going to tell people it's 300."
New testing standards force carmakers to reduce claims
Nick Bunkley / The Detroit News / March 13, 2006
It turns out Toyota Motor Corp. isn't as strong as it appears in at least one area -- under the hood.
Testing under stricter new horsepower standards reveals that most of the models in Toyota's lineup have less oomph than the company has advertised. Even though the engines are unchanged, the automaker had to lower the horsepower ratings on all but few 2006 Toyota, Lexus and Scion models. The reductions range from 4 to 20 horsepower compared with 2005 models.
Honda Motor Co., the No. 2 Japanese automaker, also has downgraded the horsepower ratings on several models, including most of its Acura luxury brand.
But while the Japanese automakers overstated their power, an analysis of data compiled by Edmunds.com shows domestic vehicles have generally been testing at or slightly above previously stated horsepower. The testing suggests Detroit's automakers may have suffered unfairly in the battle of perceptions.
While drivers may not notice the difference, said George Peterson, president of consulting firm AutoPacific Inc, "it does matter to the manufacturers because each one is engaged in what I would call a brochure war where they're competing for the best specifications. And the average American likes a bigger horsepower number than a smaller one."
Most notably for Toyota, the rating for its top-selling Camry, when equipped with a 3.3-liter V-6 engine, had to be reduced to 190 horsepower from 210.
The V-6 version of Toyota's Highlander sport utility vehicle dropped from 230 to 215, and the Lexus LS and SC 430 decreased by 12.
The revised ratings comply with standards adopted by the Society of Automotive Engineers.
The standards specify which components and accessories should be on during testing and what kind of oil and fuel to use. To claim an SAE-certified rating, an automaker also must conduct tests in the presence of an independent witness.
"The intent of the revision was to tighten up the specifications," said Gary Pollak, an SAE program manager. "There were a lot of areas that were loose and subject to interpretation."
Peterson doesn't expect Toyota or Honda to face the same kind of backlash that Hyundai Motor Co. did after inflating the horsepower ratings of its U.S. vehicles by as much as 10 percent for more than a decade. The South Korea-based automaker agreed in 2004 to pay $30 million to settle a lawsuit filed on behalf of 858,000 owners.
But for consumers who covet powerful engines and allow horsepower ratings to influence which vehicles they purchase, the revisions could chip away at Honda and Toyota's reputations.
Consumers haven't taken kindly to overhyped claims.
In 2001, Nissan Motor Co. came under fire after overstating the acceleration of its Infiniti Q45 sedan. Ford Motor Co. admitted overstating the horsepower rating of its 1999 Mustang Cobra R, and Mazda Motor Corp. did the same with the 2001 Miata roadster. Buyers of both cars were offered compensation.
The new rating also could make some vehicles less appealing to consumers who start shopping by researching specifications on the Internet. The V-6 Camry's 190 horsepower pales next to competitors such as the 221-horsepower Ford Fusion, although that will change soon when the 2007 Camry is introduced with 268 horses.
Toyota spokesman John McCandless noted that the company was proactive in testing all of its vehicles under the new standards.
"We've never really been big on promoting horsepower," McCandless said. "The proof in the pudding is driving the car."
Darren Seeman, who runs the Web sites ToyotaLife.com, LexusLife.com and ScionLife.com from home in Portland, Ore., doesn't think people who bought a Toyota before the latest tests were conducted will feel misled or cheated. "Honestly, I don't think a lot of people buy a Toyota brand for the horsepower," said Seeman, 29. While Toyota and Honda have subjected their entire lineups to the new standards, Detroit's automakers are mostly retesting vehicles with new powertrains.
Eventually, all vehicles are expected to be rated according to the new standards.
"What we put in place were pretty much common practice at GM, and at Ford and Chrysler as well," said Dave Lancaster, a technical fellow at General Motors Corp. who chaired the committee that developed the standards. GM has submitted results from 11 engine lines -- covering popular vehicles such as the Chevrolet Malibu and Impala, Pontiac G6 and Cadillac DTS -- to SAE for certification. The tests bumped up the horsepower ratings for the Malibu, Impala and G6 by 1 for 2006.
DaimlerChrysler AG has retested its higher-performance vehicles, including the Dodge Viper and those equipped with a Hemi engine. The Viper went from 500 horsepower to 510, while the ratings for most others changed less than 4 percent, Chrysler Group spokesman Cole Quinnell said.
Under the previous guidelines, Quinnell said, "a lot of times we chose to publish a number that was lower than what another manufacturer might choose."
Ford has found virtually no changes in testing under the new standards. Company officials say the new 3.5-liter V-6 planned for the 2007 Ford Edge, Lincoln MKX and Lincoln MKZ will provide at least the 250 horsepower it has promised.
"It's not in our best interest to give customers an inaccurate picture of what kind of power their car has," Ford spokesman Nick Twork said.
Honda saw the horsepower ratings on the Odyssey minivan and Pilot SUV fall from 255 to 244. The CR-V and Element went from 160 to 156. Various Accord styles had slight gains. Six of the seven Acura models were downgraded, including the RL, TL and MDX.
Honda spokesman Chuck Schifsky said the company wanted to be up-front with customers by retesting all of its vehicles, even though that meant reducing many of the horsepower ratings. "We're still pretty darn competitive with all of our vehicles, even with the new specs," Schifsky said.
Honda and Toyota have been educating dealers about the changes. Dan Hurd, a salesman at LaFontaine Toyota in Dearborn, said, "They're more concerned with the drive and the fit and finish."
Seeman, who operates the Web sites, said he doesn't feel any differently about his Lexus SC 430 knowing that it was downgraded from 300 horsepower to 288. "I'm still going to tell people it's 300."
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You may notice that I was quoted in the article... well, MANY people noticed and emailed me. They felt that I was part of the cause that American car manufacturers were not doing well. The funny thing was that most of the emails sent to me contained poor grammar and spelling -- indicating that they were not very well educated. I wonder if they really understand that the issue is that American manufacturers are producing inferior products. Hmm.
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Here is a good one!
Hmmm... I wonder if he really knows the whole issue. You see, Toyota previously tested their engines to a standard that did not include accessories such as A/C condensers, etc, running while the test was being conducted. The horsepower claims were for the engine only. The new SAE standards are more real-life in which power-steering pumps, A/C units, alternators are loaded during the test, so the horsepower numbers that are reported are more realistic for daily driving conditions. It isn't as if the numbers that were reported before were lies.
It would be nice if a few people emailed Mr. Gustavus and invited him to join our discussion. I would really like to hear his opinion on this matter in an open forum.
Originally Posted by Joseph D. Gustavus
DARREN SEEMAN STOP MISLEADING CONSUMERS BY OVERSTATING THE HORSEPOWER OF THE LEXUS SC 430!!
Originally Posted by scionlife
Misleading consumers? Hehe... wow, you are really fired up. The website I run is a community for Toyota owners, not a sales floor. The only people that might ask me how much power my car makes would be someone randomly at a gas station, or in a parking lot... in a situation where it isn't really necessary to give exact numbers.
Don't worry, I'm not trying to fool anyone.
Don't worry, I'm not trying to fool anyone.
Originally Posted by Joseph D. Gustavus
Now who is one fired up? Ha, very amusing. I love it! I think I hit a raw spot.
I love this statement too: "The only people that might ask me how much power my car makes would be someone randomly at a gas station, or in a parking lot... in a situation where it isn't really necessary to give exact numbers."
Nice rationalization. Since you feel it is not necessary to give exact numbers, then why not round down to 275? Its roughly the same amount.
It seems that you are tying to fool and mislead people and you know it.
I wonder what Oregon's Financial Fraud/Consumer Protection Section would say in that case?
Joseph D. Gustavus
Gustavus@MillerCanfield.com
Miller, Canfield, Paddock and Stone, P.L.C.
840 West Long Lake Road, Suite 200
Troy, Michigan 48098-6358 USA
I love this statement too: "The only people that might ask me how much power my car makes would be someone randomly at a gas station, or in a parking lot... in a situation where it isn't really necessary to give exact numbers."
Nice rationalization. Since you feel it is not necessary to give exact numbers, then why not round down to 275? Its roughly the same amount.
It seems that you are tying to fool and mislead people and you know it.
I wonder what Oregon's Financial Fraud/Consumer Protection Section would say in that case?
Joseph D. Gustavus
Gustavus@MillerCanfield.com
Miller, Canfield, Paddock and Stone, P.L.C.
840 West Long Lake Road, Suite 200
Troy, Michigan 48098-6358 USA
It would be nice if a few people emailed Mr. Gustavus and invited him to join our discussion. I would really like to hear his opinion on this matter in an open forum.
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Eh. I'm not too worried about the decrease/increase what ever the case may be in each respective automotive company.
I've been satisfied with all vehicles I have owned (Save for one. The 1999 Mitsu Mirage. ALthough it did get outstanding gas mileage)
In my humble opinion. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, GM... they are all in the business of making the customers happy for return business etc.
They are all in "business" and I can't hate on anyone for trying to make a buck.
I've been satisfied with all vehicles I have owned (Save for one. The 1999 Mitsu Mirage. ALthough it did get outstanding gas mileage)
In my humble opinion. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, GM... they are all in the business of making the customers happy for return business etc.
They are all in "business" and I can't hate on anyone for trying to make a buck.
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it seems to me if you are running the ac or the lights or any other superfluous device while doing a horsepower test you are underestimating the horsepower, if it was a test of what the horsepower was in a daily driving circumstance they would just put it on a dyno and give the horsepower at the wheels. Personally i would like both, horsepower at the flywheel with no accessories running, and the horsepower at the wheels.
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Thats just wrong. 
Under 5HP I'll let slide (even though its still shaddy business), but if the numbers are off in double digit HP ranges that is simply a rip-off-fake-way to run a business.
When you purchase something and it isn't/wasn't exactly what you were told it is/was, how would you feel as a consumer?
Cheated.
Under 5HP I'll let slide (even though its still shaddy business), but if the numbers are off in double digit HP ranges that is simply a rip-off-fake-way to run a business.
When you purchase something and it isn't/wasn't exactly what you were told it is/was, how would you feel as a consumer?
Cheated.
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I see the complaint about getting what you pay for.
But we are all more than aware of the rated HP and actual HP when we take our vehicles to the dyno. Its really nothing new.
And if you are truley concerned with HP of your vehicle and you are into performance tuning. Any car can be made to go fast anyway.
But we are all more than aware of the rated HP and actual HP when we take our vehicles to the dyno. Its really nothing new.
And if you are truley concerned with HP of your vehicle and you are into performance tuning. Any car can be made to go fast anyway.
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Originally Posted by R2D2
Thats just wrong.
Under 5HP I'll let slide (even though its still shaddy business), but if the numbers are off in double digit HP ranges that is simply a rip-off-fake-way to run a business.
When you purchase something and it isn't/wasn't exactly what you were told it is/was, how would you feel as a consumer? Cheated.
Under 5HP I'll let slide (even though its still shaddy business), but if the numbers are off in double digit HP ranges that is simply a rip-off-fake-way to run a business.
When you purchase something and it isn't/wasn't exactly what you were told it is/was, how would you feel as a consumer?
Cheated.
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wow, seriously, there are people out there who are so old-fashioned, they will go to the grave being short-sighted and never drive a foreign car.
I used to be that way at a young age. My love was the S-series pickups from GM. My father always owned one (Who now owns an 06 Nissan Frontier) and I had 2 (still have 1). After GM stopped the legacy of the S-10 (82-2004) and they came out with the crap of a Colorado, I will never own a GM product again. The engines are still old fashioned push-rods that have to have extremely large displacements in order for it to make serious power. Now I have a tC, and just driving that is a better feel. The people who own one (such as the people from Scion Syndicate) are all a fun group of people, where as the people who own a domestic car think their sh*t don't stink. I don't think that foreign auto makers duped anyone, they just tested them differently. Not any worse than my 2000 s-10 that has a sticker rating of 180hp, but puts out 125-135 at the wheels is stock form.
I will welcome what ever company that comes along who makes a quality product, and american makers don't do it anymore.
And I don't feel duped by the numbers. The tC accelerates better, drives better, and has more features than my fully loaded s-10.
I used to be that way at a young age. My love was the S-series pickups from GM. My father always owned one (Who now owns an 06 Nissan Frontier) and I had 2 (still have 1). After GM stopped the legacy of the S-10 (82-2004) and they came out with the crap of a Colorado, I will never own a GM product again. The engines are still old fashioned push-rods that have to have extremely large displacements in order for it to make serious power. Now I have a tC, and just driving that is a better feel. The people who own one (such as the people from Scion Syndicate) are all a fun group of people, where as the people who own a domestic car think their sh*t don't stink. I don't think that foreign auto makers duped anyone, they just tested them differently. Not any worse than my 2000 s-10 that has a sticker rating of 180hp, but puts out 125-135 at the wheels is stock form.
I will welcome what ever company that comes along who makes a quality product, and american makers don't do it anymore.
And I don't feel duped by the numbers. The tC accelerates better, drives better, and has more features than my fully loaded s-10.
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It's just like the stupid MPG figures that are reported for each model. They don't reflect real-world driving at all, so the numbers are all screwy. In fact, Toyota has even made a big deal about the fact that the Prius scores TOO well on those test because they just happen to be optimum for the hybrid to take advantage of it's technology... but in the real work on real streets it is a different story.
In the HP matter, Toyota reported the flywheel horsepower of their engines according to the process at that time. Now they must factor in parasitic drag from the AC, PS, alternator, etc. In fact, the new numbers are NOT the power that the engine makes, but the power that the engine has available to drive the car under "average" circumstances according to SAE. Of course, we all have to wonder if we drive the same as the "average" driver, which is the cause of the screwy MPG results I talked about previously. Do YOU always have your AC on? Or do you turn it off? Hmmm...
I am still getting many emails from American car enthusiasts. They seem to be under the impression that the Japanese manufacturers have been lying. One of the reasons they may be under that impression is because many domestic manufacturers have chosen NOT to retest their engines due to cost. They are publishing last year's results still. The domestics are only going to test NEW engines or engines in NEW models. Apples and oranges, then?
In the HP matter, Toyota reported the flywheel horsepower of their engines according to the process at that time. Now they must factor in parasitic drag from the AC, PS, alternator, etc. In fact, the new numbers are NOT the power that the engine makes, but the power that the engine has available to drive the car under "average" circumstances according to SAE. Of course, we all have to wonder if we drive the same as the "average" driver, which is the cause of the screwy MPG results I talked about previously. Do YOU always have your AC on? Or do you turn it off? Hmmm...
I am still getting many emails from American car enthusiasts. They seem to be under the impression that the Japanese manufacturers have been lying. One of the reasons they may be under that impression is because many domestic manufacturers have chosen NOT to retest their engines due to cost. They are publishing last year's results still. The domestics are only going to test NEW engines or engines in NEW models. Apples and oranges, then?
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I just wish that domestic manufacturers could pull their heads out of their ***** and build some cars that people WANT. Ford can figure out the Mustang but still builds a boring 500 and thinks that renaming the Windstar to Freestar is going to help anything? GM makes a Corvette Z06 that is to die for, but someone thought that the Pontiac Aztec was a good idea, along with a G6 that is obviously a Grand Am and a Cobalt that is obviously a Cavalier? Gimme a break guys. Chrysler is the only one making real-life cars that are exciting and some of that has to do with their German control... maybe the big heads in Detroit just aren't in touch with the American public. (Did I say maybe?)
Of course things are about to change big time with the "big two". I think that we might see some really revolutionary ideas now that they have decided to start cutting the fat and concentrating on making money instead of giant piles of steel crap.
Of course things are about to change big time with the "big two". I think that we might see some really revolutionary ideas now that they have decided to start cutting the fat and concentrating on making money instead of giant piles of steel crap.
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I dont think any of them were in the wrong, they stated the bhp of the ENGINE, which is commonly tested without power steering pumps, ac compressors, etc. That is just common sense testing. They wanted a standard way to test the engines output. Engines are used on different vehicles with different types of accessories installed, so they simply rated the engine. It is the lack of knowledge of the general population that thinks that they can simply compare on HP numbers, which is why they are probably making them test with all the accessories now.. which will solve nothing since you still cant compare simply on HP.. different drivetrains and platforms will still have an effect car to car. No one "mis-stated" the hp ratings.. the standard for measurement was changed, which will now cause the customer to whine thinking they were "ripped off" because they are basing decisions on numbers they do not understand to start with.
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Originally Posted by engifineer
I dont think any of them were in the wrong, they stated the bhp of the ENGINE, which is commonly tested without power steering pumps, ac compressors, etc. That is just common sense testing. They wanted a standard way to test the engines output. Engines are used on different vehicles with different types of accessories installed, so they simply rated the engine. It is the lack of knowledge of the general population that thinks that they can simply compare on HP numbers, which is why they are probably making them test with all the accessories now.. which will solve nothing since you still cant compare simply on HP.. different drivetrains and platforms will still have an effect car to car. No one "mis-stated" the hp ratings.. the standard for measurement was changed, which will now cause the customer to whine thinking they were "ripped off" because they are basing decisions on numbers they do not understand to start with.
If the actual HP/mpg/whatever it maybe is different than what is being posted or stated isn't that shaddy business?
If someone told u that this piece of gold was 18K when u bought it, just to find out its only 14K - wouldn't u feel cheated? engifineer, my reference was intended for the "exaggerated" #s in general, not specifically HP. I don't appreciate being attacked when you've got NO idea what i'm talking about ~ Apples and oranges...
Its not a matter of feeling ripped off, its a matter of INTEGRITY. Loyalty comes from trust, and if no trust is there customers will be lost.
Whatever the conditions are/were when the #s were off, I'd personally take the conservative approach ~ understate the numbers instead of exaggerate them ~ I wouldn't mind thinking I've got xHP when i've actually got x+10HP.
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It seems a bit rediculous to me to understate numbers based on any current test. Look at how poorly domestic manufacturers have been doing... if they were "understating numbers" that seems like an idiotic business move when they could sell more vehicles by stating numbers as required by government regulations.
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Originally Posted by scionlifeguy
It seems a bit rediculous to me to understate numbers based on any current test. Look at how poorly domestic manufacturers have been doing... if they were "understating numbers" that seems like an idiotic business move when they could sell more vehicles by stating numbers as required by government regulations.
In anycase I think accuracy is essential.
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I like the fact that you were quoted once and all these peeps who obviously have more problems on their plates than HP numbers go off on you. All you were doing was stating your opinion on the situation. I especially liked how he tried to 'threaten' you by saying...
"I wonder what Oregon's Financial Fraud/Consumer Protection Section would say in that case?"
Where there's $$$, there's a lawyer. Freakin' lawyers. Most think they know it all.
Test this? Test that? That means there would have to be a test for each and every person who drives because our driving tendencies differ for one to the other. JohnDoe only has Freeway miles on his. SuzyQ only drives her car in the city. BillyBob lives in the mountains and uses 2nd gear for climbing. etc. etc. etc. As tests get outdated, they will be revised. My point? I do not believe anybody was misled. I do not feel like I have to go to my dealership and picket about actual #'s. Somebody mentioned integrity? Toyota knows what they are doing. They have been building quality products for years. Also, people keep re-buying Toyotas. Why? People trust Toyota. I doubt it will have a large-scale effect on sales.
"I wonder what Oregon's Financial Fraud/Consumer Protection Section would say in that case?"
Where there's $$$, there's a lawyer. Freakin' lawyers. Most think they know it all.
Test this? Test that? That means there would have to be a test for each and every person who drives because our driving tendencies differ for one to the other. JohnDoe only has Freeway miles on his. SuzyQ only drives her car in the city. BillyBob lives in the mountains and uses 2nd gear for climbing. etc. etc. etc. As tests get outdated, they will be revised. My point? I do not believe anybody was misled. I do not feel like I have to go to my dealership and picket about actual #'s. Somebody mentioned integrity? Toyota knows what they are doing. They have been building quality products for years. Also, people keep re-buying Toyotas. Why? People trust Toyota. I doubt it will have a large-scale effect on sales.