I spent much of yesterday afternoon/evening at Modacar in Livermore CA watching some testing conducted by Chris and Leo from Weapon R. I know many of you have some heartburn with this company, I don't have those prejudices and went with an open mind. Here's what I observed:

Modacar is a nice shop/store.

Leo seems to really care about producing a good product.

The test car was a nice stock Xb (with exception of Injen intake) willingly provided by a young man named Daniel. I didn't get his last name but it doesn't really mater, all that matters is he was willing to have his Xb thrashed on the dyno for the greater good. I don't think I would be that generous with my Xa!! He arrived with an Injen intake installed and swapped to the stock air box in the parking lot WITHOUT disconnecting/removing the battery. Why did I say this? It is important later....

Tests: Remember that these tests are for this car on this dyno on this day with this operator and cannot be compared to any other dyno test. Sorry, that's just the way it is in the SCIENTIFIC high performance world!

1. Stock intake, ran 3 times. Best run-94.1hp, 98.3lbft of torque. The shop guys said they have dynoed stock Scions at 98-100hp; must have had "Really good air" on those days!!
2. Injen intake, several runs 3-4 (I lost count because liability rules don't allow observers inside the dyno area during runs). Best run-96.3hp, 100.2lbft of torque.
3. Weapon R prototype intake, several runs. Best run was in between the stock and Injen intake.
4. Weapon R prototype intake with the venturi tube removed, several runs. Best run was almost exactly equal to the Injen intake.
5. Weapon R prototype intake without the venturi tube and about 3" removed from the overall length, several runs. Best run-97hp, 99.58lbft of torque.

Here's what I learned:

On this day with this car on this dyno, the Weapon R made 1hp more than the Injen.

We missed an apples/apples comparison with the stock intake and didn't realize it until later.... Here's what happened, the stock intake was tested in a as driven on the street condition, that is different from the other intakes tested -what does that mean? Our ECUs "learn" as we drive and optimize the fuel and spark curves for the conditions it sees through the sensors. After testing the stock intake the battery was removed to install the Injen intake. By disconnecting and removing the battery the ECU reverted to it's baseline spark/fuel curves=not apples/apples.

The Weapon R vs Injen was a valid comparison using the base line settings in the ECU and they both had about the same number of runs to "learn" from. The stock intake was with spark/fuel optimized for the Injen intake previously installed=apples/oranges comparison and means little if anything.

Now here's my opinion: The stock air box/plumbing is not the main restriciton on these engines, it's that huge MAF sensor hanging down in the air flow!! Someone really needs to figure out how to reprogram the ECU to use a MAP sensor instead!! I'd bet that would be worth 10 peak HP by itself.

I cannot see the reasoning behind spending $150-$300 for such small HP gains! If you are willing to spend that much $$ per HP, the companies are willing to take your $$. I have heard people arguing that one intake is better than another because it made 1 peak hp more on a dyno test and it wasn't even on their car!! That's a load of crap, nobody can feel 1 peak hp in the real world! In a drag race, reaction time (driver) has WAY more impact than any of these intakes could make!! HAAA, that ought to start the flames, that's ok, I have asbestos skin and love a good technical discussion... I hope this makes you think a little.
ken

I wonder if my HKS VPC (Vein Pressure Converter) would work with the Scion. It eliminates the MAF and converts it into speed density. I bet you could probably pick up 5-10 hp by eliminating the MAF. My turbo AWD Eclipse picked up 20hp by just adding that piece alone. I have 2 more weeks and I'm gonna give it a try.

well written........

I agree about the 1hp over another argument.

This ought to be a fun thread to watch!

See they used a stock xb.....Okay so thie did do some runs....

Good write up.

I have to agree that the intake battle is funny. 1 WHP isn't going to do anyone any good. I also agree that it's all DRIVER...

The weapon R intake DID make that much more power.. just for those who really want to know or care. I personally feel that it doesn't matter if it did or didn't. Weapon R IS changing their company around, and it's real nice to see a company do R&D work... Their initial design didn't make much more power. They though about what they could do to make power, put it into play. It made more power. They wanted to more, so they tried another design..and so forth and so forth. That in itself is deserving of respect, as I know of companies that just make a pipe, put it somewhere, throw on a filter and say it makes power. Either way... FAT PROPS TO WEAPON...

Go Nor*cal!!!!! 8)

BTW for those that didn't know.. That was my car. I tried to take pics, but my digi cam had no juice left. :oops:

well, thanks for putting your car through hell for all of us.

No prob

I totally agree about the 1 horsepower ordeal....I think with the xB its going to be more of personal taste on the color and graphic design and all that marketing stuff for which one a person buys.....I am more proned to buy one for the added gas mileage it will give me....but for something like that do you think compared a short ram to a CAI your going to get about the same added mpg to your car?????

I was getting worse after I put on my AEM...but I did the battery diconnect thing and now I'm getting 2MPG better this last tank.

Damn I missed it......I know it blinked on the dyno....hopefully there was parking cause that whole lot is full of cars....

izzles,

Its alright.. wasnt a super fun time. it was cool. Whos the tech you know over there?

Thanks to the guys who showed up to the dyno.

I also agree that the 1hp difference in this car will not make much of a difference..
So i went back home and thought about how and why this car needs to flow.
My conclusions.
1. Being that the engine is small.. it needs a more direct airflow.
2. I still feel that the velocity tube inside the pipe will make more power, it's just figuring the size and length.
3. Overall tube length is going to effect the intakes overall performance.
4. Im going back to the dyno with 3 other tube config's.

Here are the dyno results..
www.weapon-r.com/images/xbintakesmall.jpg

Here is the picture of the car on the dyno...
www.weapon-r.com/images/xbdynosmall.jpg

With that said.. I will be back with my new intake design and Headers..

Leo

So who really thought the xbs could really be that fast. Pretty much buy the intake that you think looks the best or just by an intake because you like the cool sound it makes. IMO.

And i'll be here waiting for you headers.

hmmm...interesting little dip the 2 aftermarket intake both took at 61-62MPH on the dyno chart compared to stock. In my automatic Xb that would be at about 3000rpm or so.

That speed is misleading, I forgot to mention the runs were made in 3rd gear so the RPM would be different in cruising.

Leo, I have some ideas for the intake pipe and a bunch for a header. Please check my website (in my profile) and go to the page on header design. I will try and get down next week so you can use my Xa for fitment and we can discuss the header if you are open to input. I have learned even more since I wrote that page.... Huge subject and I learn more all the time.
ken

so then what was the rpm when that dip occurred???

I agree w/ re-mapping the ECU. It doesn't matter of you have the EVO, WRX-STi, or our xBs. Peeps I know w/ EVOs, WRXs, WRX-STis, all have remapped ECUs. If you have the resources to properly map the ECU, then you will have more gains. Sure an intake, and exhaust help, but one will have alot more gains by remapping the ECU.

Thanks Daniel for using your Red Box. I hope to see it soon!

what about SAFC II??would that work?

AFC's dont work.. the scion ecu is open loop.. Like the WRX's..

Gimme some time.. imma come up with something good..

it's open lopp thats why the ecu kept learning the fuel curve..
and thats why it kept gaining HP after each run..

Leo

good job on the weopon -r intake leo 1 more whp is still more hp , add the ram air kit and you add more hp there too. but i do have one question on the topic of the ecu-- Jetchip makes a "V-Module that plugs into the ecu to add horse power and stuff, in their website they sell it for ALL toyota 4 cyl. will this help at all? here is the wesite http://www.jetchip.com/ look under imports and V-force then go to TOYOTA ALL 4 CYL 90-02 - just wondering if this will help in hp gains

It will help for a day or so.. Until the Stock ECu picks it up and tries to put everything back to stock..

Also the Intakes we dyno tested yesterday will be going for only $128..

One of our online dealers agreed to sell them to the scion forums for $100..
www.rswerks.com is the site..

Leo..

This is exactly why ALL my VW's and Audi's are chipped.

You can tweak the parameters of the MAF, and other airflow to fuel mistures through the chips to have it run differently depending on the readings..

This alone would be the greatest assett to "adding" HP and efficiency.

hey i tell you all right now if someone makes a real chip (not ebay, or anyone that sells on e-bay) i WILL buy it! so get a movin on this new chip and make it.

I knew this was going to come up..

But i have done alot of tuning on chips before..
I just hate working on them..

I made 11HP 9lbs of torque on a Toyota MRS / 25Hp and 33lbs torque on a GS300 / and 20Hp and 35Lbs of torque on a GS400 / And 11Hp and 12Lbs of torque on a Celica GT.

But the problem is it costs $700..
Not too many people wanna throw down that kinda money for my tuning..
But if people put their money where their mouth is.. I know i WILL extract the
maximum HP out of the BOX..

Leo


Here are my Results from my dyno tests..
We dis-continued this line because people didnt want to pay..
But i still can do them..

http://www.weapon-r.com/ecu.html

One of our online dealers agreed to sell them to the scion forums for $100..
www.rswerks.com is the site..


About that site ... I found the rswerks.com mascot "Ichisan" to be grossly offensive. I'm not really uptight about PC but lines like "VERY POWER INTAKE I likey" and "A ROT OF Styzee I rike" strike me as blatantly racist. No reflection on WeaponR quality but is that really the sort of business partner you want to promote? Thanks for reading.

Oh, and their home page may not be completely "work safe."

i am agreeing with the racism thing, i am 1/4 japanese and i am offended, making fun of someone because they are new to english or can not speak it very well is WRONG no matter what, i will send them an e-mail telling them they need to change the way the character talks before they have a lawsuit on their hands.

Give them a break.. It's a Joke..
Geez.. No need to get all ruffled up about it..
The owner is Japanese.. and he thought it would be cool..
Guess not..

I thought it was funny too.. ahahah

Im chinese... I dont see it as offensive..
ANyhow.. I'll talk to him..

His service is 1#... He comes to oour place to pick up everyday and he ships everyday also.. I just thought it would be cool to get you guys a good price..
I talked him into it.. Now im looking like the bad guy..

Anyhow..
i'll talk to him..

Leo

just because he is japanese does not make it right either, to me it "looks" like a flash back to the 50's and 60's where a white person plays the typical stereotype japanese person in a movie by saying "so sawwry sur!" "i tella managa" and "you go now, no buy no buy" it does offend people, i am sorry but i have personally been a part of racist comments because someone found out i am 1/4 japanese, and i have heard stories about my dad in the 70's because he is 1/2 japanese, i just do not like stupid stuff like that. nothing against you leo, IMO that is just not good common sense! i bet we are not the only ones who feel this way, honestly who knows the owner is japanese? it is not like he posted on the website, "hey i am a japanese man and i own this buisness please don't be offended by my stereotypical japanese character." people only see what is in front of them.

Hey i feel you bro...
Hey your only 1/4" japanese.. Try being 100% chinese going to school in the city. You think people racially descriminate, Shiet... But im not even going to go there.. Im old enough to know and not care about racial comments and or offensive images.. No offense to anyone.. I just think this is going too far..

Anyhow.. he said he's working on a new look to the site..
He said it's just that his friends Eric So, who designed that figurine, designed it after him.. Imagine that figuring really looks like him... ahaha

Anyways.. He's going to change it..

Leo..

OK, let's get this back on track and talk intakes and ways to make these cars a little quicker....

Like I said, that MAF is the culprit, especially if any tube over 2.25" dia causes the Check Engine light to trigger... we need a MAP conversion. Is there another car with a similar problem that has already been delt with?
ken

Thanks for responding Leo.

Maybe rswerks.com carried an inside joke way too far. I'm sure it was funny as hell in their circle but IMO it's just bad marketing when thrown in front of a mainstream audience without any context.

I don't want to turn this board into a political correctness fest with everyone competing to see who can be offended first. I don't want to live in a world where other people say you can't have a good laugh at your own expense once in a while. (I used to live in that world. It's called Berkeley.) But we all respond to our life experiences differently and things like Ichi-san rub a raw nerve once in a while, whether intentionally or not.

I'm glad you rose above your own experiences, and since you know the owner and his intentions I guess you can see it in its original spirit. But the rest of us might not have the same reaction. I'm glad he's reconsidering, not for my sake but for his.

Thanks again!

back to topic!!

alright, so we have the vane idea for conversion, then we have WeaponR working on modifying the intake pipe, which I would like to see done as well as a version for the xA (don't forget us, and I'm willing to volunteer for fitment and testing)

as for headers, I'm looking to prepare the engine, I just like to extract what I can from an engine, especially in this case where it becomes a real challenge, one I want to take on

OK im back on track..

The cars cannot be changed to MAP..

I have run into this problem with my prior Toyota / Lexus ECU experiences..

Has anyone even looked at the links i put up for the ECU's..
Does anyone think $700 is worth 8-10HP and some extra TQ?

I cant guarntee anything but i will try my best..

As for the intake..
Here is my observation..
Im going to go back to the original Design..
the main thing is...

The cars ECU learns..
Im going to send an intake to the car we used for the dyno..
My idea for getting an accurate reading on the intake is this..
Please sound off if anyone has any suggestions..

1. The car owner installs the intake..
2. Has to reset the ecu, becoz he has to remove the battery to install the intake.
3. Drive around on with that intake for a few days..
4. Re-dyno next week.. with the intake system on.
5. Take the intake out and re-set ecu..
6. Drive around for 30 minutes..
7. Re-dyno with OEM intake system.

That should give us a good reading..

Im going to re-look into my intake design and see what works best, but i still feel that the original design works best.. The original intake puts the filter into the fenderwell, where it can grab some cold air, and with the velocity tube it should speed up the airflow..

Next few weeks im going to be designing the headers..
I have told a few people about my HI-Rise Equal length Header design.
Hopefully we get a great dyno out of that one..

Im also going to make some turbo manifolds... Maybe even an turbo kit.. with a T3 flange, i may just supply the charge tubes and the exhaust manifold.. so people can go and put their own kits together..

I have Ecu Re-programming experience but not enough demand and time with these cars.. If asomeone wants to put their cash and car up for an ecu -upgrade.. lets do it..
Im all for it..

Leo..

hey leo, the cash would be what ?700.00? and are you willing to come to the east coast after i get my xb, i really hate that all the good aftermarket companies are on the west coast. i would put up the money and my car when i get it, and the only thing i want in writting is that IF you blow up my engine doing this upgrade, that YOU replace it. that is all i care about. but you are on the west coast!!!!

I cannot guarntee that..
But all the cars i tune never have blown up..
And i cant come to the east coast..

Sorry

Leo

Leo,
I sent you a PM, did you get it?
ken

I cannot guarntee that..
But all the cars i tune never have blown up..
And i cant come to the east coast..

Sorry

Leo i hate the east coast i am always willing to give up my vehicle for experiments but all the companies willing to experiment are on the west coast, dammit!

Nice writeup. A few comments:

-I'm not too concerned with peak HP. I'd rather see the power curve.
-That's some BS about not letting you near the dyno during testing. Where I live, they're not that strict. Sometimes the driver pilots while they record.
-Nice mention of the 1hp issue. I always make that point in my short ram vs CAI arguments.
-You can't compare them so well on a single day of swapping intakes and dynoing. You have to break each one in and let the ECU adjust for the changes. Depending on your point of view, this particular dyno session could be considered worthless.

Thanks for taking the time doing it and reporting it. It was worth a read.

i hate the east coast i am always willing to give up my vehicle for experiments but all the companies willing to experiment are on the west coast, dammit!

I hear ya man. I'm the same way with my car! Sux huh?

I am sure the AFCII will work on xB
If its not going to work, why APEXi even make application for bB??

Purpose of the AFCII is to adjust all the fuel and air mixture needed for max performance that our ECU is not capable of. Stock ECU learns but can only do so little. You think our ECU will learn the way out and become a racecar ECU?? No, it will give you a check engine light

Unlike ECU flash which is been programmed to work with a stock engine
AFCII is not something you install and let it do its job. It needs to be fine-tuned.
I will be expecting another 10HP gain from AFCII if you have it fine-tuned with intake, exhaust, and header

i wanna see a Injen and WeaponR dyno overlay to compare the overall power band...who cares about peak numbers especially if one builds torque quicker and more of it in the lower rpm band

I completely agree, I would rather have more torque down low (where these cars really need it) and accross the midrange than an extra HP or 2 at peak.

The reality is that most young guys (which I'm not) are big on Peak HP numbers for the bragging rights. That's what sells so that's what the companies focus on. As with everything in the world it's about $$$$.

ken

I agree w/ re-mapping the ECU. It doesn't matter of you have the EVO, WRX-STi, or our xBs. Peeps I know w/ EVOs, WRXs, WRX-STis, all have remapped ECUs. If you have the resources to properly map the ECU, then you will have more gains. Sure an intake, and exhaust help, but one will have alot more gains by remapping the ECU.

Thanks Daniel for using your Red Box. I hope to see it soon!

redoing the ecu wont be a big deal on our cars for minor mods like this. WRXs and EVOs make huge gains with them because they are turbo cars, and remapping them can also raise the boost.

however, the scion is tuned for 87 octane, so presumably you could bump the timing a little for a horsepower or two.

I completely agree, I would rather have more torque down low (where these cars really need it) and accross the midrange than an extra HP or 2 at peak.

The reality is that most young guys (which I'm not) are big on Peak HP numbers for the bragging rights. That's what sells so that's what the companies focus on. As with everything in the world it's about $$$$.

ken

really this is stupid....for 4-5hp for 100+ dallors......u cant even feel a 10hp increase and if u say u can feel a 5whp increase your full of it.... ..i should just buy a drop in and call it done.....4-5hp ahahaha to funny......you can get more then 4-5hp difference between motors straight from the factory....some run harder then others.....4-5hp and $150+ for an intake doesnt make sense....

Think about it this way-- Hard Core sport bike enthusiast will spen $100 per hp. Because their bikes are so highly tuned from the factory the HP gains become more difficult. $1000 will get you about 10 hp and it takes changing several things to get that....

These little 1.5L engines are pretty highly tuned to get that 108hp at 6000 rpm so it takes more effort to gain hp than older more basic engines.... No single modification will make a huge difference but several together would make a noticable improvement.

So far the engine performance aftermarket has missed the mark for the Scions. Hopefully someone will start using their head and develop some parts that really make power!
ken

Another edition, not surprising. No offense to weapon but i think people had too many headaches and this 'new' design isnt going to revive the name. U should of seen wat i was told when I bought one of the earlier editions...