I know this topic has been covered before so don't flame me for not searching, but I think that we have finally reached a point where there are enough aftermarket parts to help the TC reach that magic 200 hp number before forced induction. I'm just now at a stage where I have the money to start buying a couple performance parts for my car each month, and I'm going to document my build up. Although I do plan on getting the TRD supercharger, I want to see if I can hit 200 hp before I have it installed. So lets take a look at the planned mods and you guys tell me what you think about the feasibility of it. (keep in mind im talking about 200 hp at the crank on 93 octane at sea level, not quite that much hp to the wheels but close to it on the dyno)

Stock 2007 TC = 161hp/163ft/lb

mods:

Injen CAI
DC sports headers +14 to 18hp
PTuning S-pipe and exhaust

NST pulleys (CR-lite crank, wp & alt) +6 to 8hp

Alphawerks throttle body +2 to 4hp

Camcon vvt-i +10 to 15hp

Dezod intake manifold
+fuel rail, slightly larger +4 to 6hp
injectors
Walbro 255 lph fuel pump

Ported and polished head 5hp? 10hp?


Other mods reduce hp loss:

Energy Suspension motor mount bushings
Ingalls "stiffy" ETD
Royal Purple full synthetic

Drivetrain Additions:

ACT stage 2 clutch
Unorthodox 11.5 lb flywheel
Dezod stainless steel clutch line
Redline MT-90 fluid


The hp numbers for the bolt-ons are real world numbers, and even if you only take the conservative side you can hit 200hp. Now I know enough about what I'm talking about to realize that you don't just add all the numbers together and thats your magic total, but I am factoring in the "synergistic" effect you get from certain items like the camcon, which works with your other mods to squeeze out more hp (1+1=3 so to speak). And when you consider how much better flow you get from a ported and polished head combined with the elimination of power robbing engine movement, and throw in a decent clutch set-up to boot, you're looking at a realistic, reliable, civic si -smoking 200 hp with a lot of torque to back it up.

I know some people will disagree with me, but that's why I posted this because I want to hear opinions, as well as any hp options I haven't thought of (I'll kill you if you mention the Turbonator). I'm not 100% positive I have the magic formula, but im about 90%, so for all the die-hard skeptics out there, we will see what happens over the next 6 months as these parts get added!

**Clarification----- Descendant Racing intake manifold and fuel rail, not dezod

200hp yes.
200whp no.

about two months ago someone with all that ish and a tune only got like 180whp which is about like 200hp. same price you could have a turbo kit with 50% more hp. if you really want to do the all motor thing then go ahead. ill still smoke you with my little turbo kit that cost alot less.
to each his own.

are you gonna get a good tune?
and you should also rent some dyno time and degree your cams, not only will you have more lift and duration from your them, but you'll tune them until they make the maximum horsepower possible from those cams... i dunno just a suggestion... im sure with that set up, degreeing your cams, and a good tune you could get there....
probably use alphawerks headers or MMW, not dc...

oh and i bet if you do cylinder work that'll help out a lot.... friction robs HP, and around 40% of your engine's friction is at your piston rings...

I know its a lot of money to put out but maybe this will help.

http://www.fastscions.com/gude-performance-scion-2azfe-cylinder-head-package.aspx

haha I accidentally clicked yes when I meant to say no. Hmm..what you plan on doing is pretty silly. You plan on going FI however you would like to see if you can make 200 N/A hp with simple bolt-on parts besides the ported head. Instead of placing estimates of how much you think you would make for each part, why dont you place a price tag next to all the things you named and see where that leaves you. Plus you understand that TRD no longer makes the supercharger that many have deemed to get? Any who..save your money and invest in a turbo kit with daily tuning. Turbos are way more efficient and can be just as reliable as N/A cars with the exception of a good tune.

oh but to be on the nice side, do what you want but if you really need an opinion that truly counts..PM tcpete since he has been down a very similar road to you.

Is it possible? Sure... just time and money are needed.

Do I think you are going to make it by the parts you've listed? Nope.

If you are going to truely attempt this you need to do some research and not just quick searches for parts that fit. You need to fully understand how engines operrate and specifically how and why each part increases power. Also you need to do some better research on the parts you've chosen. For example the alphawerks throttle body was never mass produced, so scratch that off your list. Also the decendant intake manifold would be a terrible choice for N/A due to its runner size.

You are going to have to be very nit picky with the parts you choose and try to squeeze every last bit of power out. So that means find the best and use it.

A dc sports header adds 14-18hp!!?!? no way... that thing is a POS. So far loking at your list you are going to want to ditch the dc header, decendant intake manifold, larger injectors, alphawerks throttle body, make the choice etd or inserts, and you might want to ditch the camcon.

Replace these parts with a weapon-r intake manifold, weapon-r or tsudo header, emanage ult or fi/c. As for the throttle body your only choice is the rx8 throttle body adaptor from black diamond racing. Its $200 now-a-days with no throttle body. They said only two people run it successfully. It needs tunning to operate. If you do decide to go this far I'd recomend instaling the intake manifold and TB at the same time. Get it port matched too while your at it because the rx8 TB is 15mm bigger then the tc one.

I'd personally see where you dyno after all the bolt-ons and tuning before ripping into the head. I'm not sure if ayone has done this since the launch of the intake manifolds. I believe the dynos posted were without a tune. If you had intake, header back exh, pulleys, intake manifold, throttle body work, and a darn good tune you should see mid 180's atleast. If you do this first you can see how much head work is needed.. I'm sure with all this stuff plus a ported head you can make it. Toss on a mild N/A cam and call it a day. Check www.gude.com for a head/throttle body/cam/valvetrain combo for a decent price. Last I checked it was $1650. There are many others that do awesome head work I just tossed up the cheapest I've found. The idea of a kit might be good in your case.

Goodluck, start researching. and get saving some $$ your going to need it.
Oh yeah.... SEARCH this topic has been beaten to death

Not trying to be rude, but there is so much wrong with this thread.


1) Mods (especially like headers and intake mods) add power at different parts of the power curve, and most times rob from other parts. So they dont just stack up on peak hp.

2) most everyone on the forums know that practically no dynos you see on those parts from any vendor is "real world". That header will NEVER get you that much power. They can claim all they want, but when they bolt on all that "power" and make almost no improvement in track times, that kinda is the proof in the pudding.

3) This has been discussed a billion times already, and some who like to ignore the laws of physics will still argue, but reducing rotational inertia (lightweight pullies) does not add or free up ANY hp. It is impossible. It causes the engine to rev up quicker and tricks many dynos due to them incorrectly measuring hp. That is it.

4) A larger throttle body does you no good without a larger hole in the intake.

5) Without the right engine management, simply throwing a larger fuel pump and rail is going to do nothing for you at all.

There is more if I want to spend time picking it apart... but you get the idea.

I am not saying you couldnt do enough work to get upwards of 200 WHP (or even higher if you want to get serious about the engine build)... but your approach has some serious issues and serious faith in manufacturer hp claims.

:doh:

See, this confuses me because isnt ptunings time attack car 500whp on the stock motor? without that turbo, its a fully built engine...right? so why CANT we get 200whp all motor? please enlighten me, i'm still learning about motors and such.

The Ptuning motor is a whole different ball game that involves a nearly limitless budget. When you got the money you can make anything help. I'm sure that motor doesn't even resemble a 2az-fe anymore lol.

Not trying to be rude, but there is so much wrong with this thread.


1) Mods (especially like headers and intake mods) add power at different parts of the power curve, and most times rob from other parts. So they dont just stack up on peak hp.

2) most everyone on the forums know that practically no dynos you see on those parts from any vendor is "real world". That header will NEVER get you that much power. They can claim all they want, but when they bolt on all that "power" and make almost no improvement in track times, that kinda is the proof in the pudding.

3) This has been discussed a billion times already, and some who like to ignore the laws of physics will still argue, but reducing rotational inertia (lightweight pullies) does not add or free up ANY hp. It is impossible. It causes the engine to rev up quicker and tricks many dynos due to them incorrectly measuring hp. That is it.

4) A larger throttle body does you no good without a larger hole in the intake.

5) Without the right engine management, simply throwing a larger fuel pump and rail is going to do nothing for you at all.

There is more if I want to spend time picking it apart... but you get the idea.

I am not saying you couldnt do enough work to get upwards of 200 WHP (or even higher if you want to get serious about the engine build)... but your approach has some serious issues and serious faith in manufacturer hp claims.

i love people that think that porting the tb without the intake will do soemthing.

if anything it would rob hp because it interupts teh velocity

in order to get close to 200 NA you have to build the motor with higher comp pistons, longer strokes and higher revving head with larger exhaust holes ports

or you can use ingenuity and use a honda head and modify that stuff to fit ahhah

ask tcpete. he'll tell you all about his 200 hp ventures.

18HP from a header? LOL
255lph fuel pump? LOL! I'm running around 300whp and I don't even need a fuel pump

That setup you just posted is good for around 170-175WHP, and that's assuming it's properly tuned for the new injectors.

first of all DC sports headers suck.....MMW is better

secondly..... you wanna hit 200 hp N/A? look into nitrous

nitrous = FI.

No it's not.

i guess.

i consider it fi. it's not raising teh compression due to stroke or pistons

but i guess i dont' know jack squat.

woops.

any NOx threads in FI are deleted or moved to drivetrain/power effective immediately.

^^^lol yeah... spraying nitrous oxide isn't forced induction at all. It doesn't force more oxygen in than atmospheric air. It just blows up in the cylinders right? Man that stuff is flamable

Haha ok thanks guys I feel much more educated now, thats exactly what I wanted to hear was some well thought out opinions, but now Ive got some more questions, especially for
1vicissitude

1) Descendent makes TWO versions of their intake manifold, one for street, one for race, why would this be bad choice? If anything I would prob break even on the N/A hp, but once I got the TRD sc it would probably be well suited, especially after increasing the boost with the NST sc pulley, no? Also, Ive heard two different people here on the forums say the Weapon-R intake manifold is a piece of crap, so please tell me why its better?

2) Why is the DC sports header a POS? From what Ive seen, more people have it than any other one, Toyota uses it on their celebrity race TC's, it has the fewest fitment issues, it gives almost as much hp as the others, it has the least amount of rasp, and most importantly, it already comes ceramic coated from the factory so im not roasting my engine bay and VIS carbon fiber hood with extra heat being expelled.

3)Why make the choice on the ETD or the motor mount inserts when I can have both and they will work together.



And FYI, I meant +14 to 18 hp with the entire I/H/E combo, not just the headers

And no im not getting NOS or a turbo kit. I'm getting the TRD sc from TRDSparks.com, getting the better bearings, shaft, and BPV before I even get it installed, running the NST 9.5 pulley, and calling it a day. It's a FWD compact and Im only shooting for about 230 hp which several ppl have hit with this setup.

I'm just seeing how much hp i can hit on the way FOR FUN, which means no N/A cams, standalone AEM EMS, or any of that jazz. I'll wait until I get my Lexus IS-F in about 2-3 years before I start going apesh*t and trying to hit 600hp

lol wut??? the DC sports header rasps the most :rofl:

More people have DC sports headers purely because of marketing and its an established brand name, not because it performs better.

Okay first I'd like to say I'm no guru just someone with too much time spent digging up and reading way too many old posts.

The dc sports header is about as cheap as headers come for the Tc. Not that price equates performace but there are better options if you are persueing NA performance. 4-1 vs 4-2-1 designs have thier advantages and disadvantages. 4-2-1 more useable mid range, 4-1 having more topend. The zazfe in its inherit design is not a topend monster, where it shines amongst other 4cyl engines is its low end torque and broad powerband. Another issue with the dc sports header is they drone like a mofo and will sound like crap. Granted most header/exh combos drone some just do it worse.

On the decendant intake manifolds I am not aware of the differences between the race and street versions. Wait nvm just looked it up... I gotta say it again man, you really gotta do some reading on just the basics before you go nuts. The site clearly states the difference. The street version uses the stock drive by wire throttle body, the race uses thier 90mm cable activated TB. The reason I suggested the weapon-r one is due to the runner length, longer runners offer more midrange or in our case useable power. They are geared for N/a setups. The decendant one with its short runners is just ment to flow as much as possible without air velocity or other factors taken into consideration. Maybe if we had 9,800rpm rev limits it'd work out but in our cars no way. Those types of intake manifolds are great for turbo'd or supercharged egines though because the air is crammed in anyways. Less restriction the better. In regaurds to the knocking on the weapon-r intake manifold, alls I have to say is once you start getting this deep into part swapping don't think its going to be all bolt on easiness. Half the people complaining were doing so because it needed dyno time. Idiots if you ask me, people ask for something when they dont know what they are truely asking for.

If you are getting the supercharger don't try to break the 200hp mark. Its not going to be easy NA. You are going to have to do things that will adversly affect your ride once the supercharger is on. And you will have parts that you have to strip off and resell.

Get the supercharger. Get it rebuilt with better bearings and seals because from the factory it is a POS. Get the shaft balanced too while your at it. Then slap it on with a 12psi pulley and a meth kit or custom intercooler. A header, injectors, fi/c, supercharger intake, and some dyno time are all the mods you will need. That is besides the driver mod and a lsd with some sticky tires to keep the power down.

Right now pick NA or FI, save yourself some headaches.

First off TRDsparks no longer sales the TRD supercharger..no one does..it is DISCONTINUED.

Oh and the reason why you don't want to get the ETD AND the motor mounts is because the motor mounts will do the job of the etd X1000 better so putting the etd won't add anything other than something else to sparkle when you pop the hood.

^^^lol yeah... spraying nitrous oxide isn't forced induction at all. It doesn't force more oxygen in than atmospheric air. It just blows up in the cylinders right? Man that stuff is flamable

as i said, i do not know cars. at all.

to my knowledge NOx is in the same field because it forces the compression in the cyl to raise due to an added substance rather than achieving a higher comp due to mechanical means.

but what do i know. stupid moderators with no knowledge whatsoever. wtf right? lets vote carbon to be mod.

Haha incase u couldn't tell I was messin around. Ofcourse it is fi, when ur at any track does it not count as a power adder?

NO2 is just has a much more concentrated/denser Oxygen count than atmospheric air. Remember the air we breath is only 21% oxygen...
Nitrogen: 78%
Oxygen: 21%
Carbon Dioxide: 0.03%
Noble Gases (Helium, Argon, Krypton, Neon, Xenon and Radon together make up 0.97%)
Water Vapour (the amount varies)

Nitrous on the other hand is about 36% Oxygen. So now I guess your thinking why not just spray pure 100% liquid oxygen then? Answer is the Nitrogen acts as a stabilizer for the burning reaction. Pure oxygen would result in too wild a combustion, resulting in a blown engine. This is because the nitrogen atoms in the nitrous oxide have a function as well. The nitrogen atoms released have a cooling effect on the combustion temperature. It absorbs the heat and helps carry it away.

Okay first I'd like to say I'm no guru just someone with too much time spent digging up and reading way too many old posts.

The dc sports header is about as cheap as headers come for the Tc. Not that price equates performace but there are better options if you are persueing NA performance. 4-1 vs 4-2-1 designs have thier advantages and disadvantages. 4-2-1 more useable mid range, 4-1 having more topend. The zazfe in its inherit design is not a topend monster, where it shines amongst other 4cyl engines is its low end torque and broad powerband. Another issue with the dc sports header is they drone like a mofo and will sound like crap. Granted most header/exh combos drone some just do it worse.

On the decendant intake manifolds I am not aware of the differences between the race and street versions. Wait nvm just looked it up... I gotta say it again man, you really gotta do some reading on just the basics before you go nuts. The site clearly states the difference. The street version uses the stock drive by wire throttle body, the race uses thier 90mm cable activated TB. The reason I suggested the weapon-r one is due to the runner length, longer runners offer more midrange or in our case useable power. They are geared for N/a setups. The decendant one with its short runners is just ment to flow as much as possible without air velocity or other factors taken into consideration. Maybe if we had 9,800rpm rev limits it'd work out but in our cars no way. Those types of intake manifolds are great for turbo'd or supercharged egines though because the air is crammed in anyways. Less restriction the better.

Thats where im headed. But dont worry I plan on calling Descendant Racing and discussing my application with them before I drop $600. I'll also do a little more research on the Weapon-r intake manifold, i just get uneasy because so many people talk about how crappy there products are, headers, intakes, ETD, etc..

the weapon-r header is actually probably one of the best ones out there for the tC IMO. The ETD they produce is garbage and i can't say much about the intake.

I just remember when there manifold came out it just looked really bad. The welds were all over the place and it just didn't look like a clean piece to begin with.