to base an opinion on the amount the tC threads were viewed... I would assume that a very limited amount of tC interest was in regards to suspension and handling.

I personally think this may be one of the most important areas to consider in this car.

Handling is above looks and HP in my book... but contributes to both equally.

Just an observation.
I hope this area is more trafficed in the future. :pray: So we can all learn more about our options.

car handles pretty damn good stock. AND there are no adjustable shocks/struts out yet. (that's what i'm waiting for as I am NOT paying $300-$500 for NONadjustable TRDs!)

^ditto

to base an opinion on the amount the tC threads were viewed... I would assume that a very limited amount of tC interest was in regards to suspension and handling.

I personally think this may be one of the most important areas to consider in this car.

Handling is above looks and HP in my book... but contributes to both equally.

Just an observation.
I hope this area is more trafficed in the future. :pray: So we can all learn more about our options.

I agree with you very much. My car dealer is a friend and I've been on two test drives. One was calm and the other..umm...more spirited. What I noticed is the car has a severe amount of understeer that almost scared me. Once the car started letting go up front there was no way to control the turn withought re-gaining traction first. I think the camber kit is going to be needed in order to dial the car in for the twisties. I don't know what the factory cambet is but it felt in the positive and on a car like the TC I'd want my camber in the negatives. Although we can't really control the roll center, lowering the car 2" all the way around probably improves this a bit as a higher roll center is more desireable.
I think that many people maybe buying the TC just to drive around everyday (like me)so the suspension on this car may never get the attention it deserves from most people. My only excuse is that I'm building another car to push over a lateral-g so beating on the TC probably won't happen.
Does anyone know what the figure is for this car over the 200' skidpad?

.8 or lower prob

http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/download/0502_scion_tc_data.pdf

.82 G
64mph slalom

not bad for stock...

What I noticed is the car has a severe amount of understeer that almost scared me. Once the car started letting go up front there was no way to control the turn withought re-gaining traction first. I think the camber kit is going to be needed in order to dial the car in for the twisties. I don't know what the factory cambet is but it felt in the positive and on a car like the TC I'd want my camber in the negatives. Although we can't really control the roll center, lowering the car 2" all the way around probably improves this a bit as a higher roll center is more desireable.

Actually, people have observed at the limit lift throttle OVERsteer, even bone stock, which is surely scarier for novice drivers (or fwd drivers in general) than understeer. Usually all you do if you start plowing is let off the gas but here that may send the back end out a little if not done with care especially if you stiffen up the rear sway bar only. The slow-in, fast-out approach is definately in effect here. People have also reported the rear end getting really loose under heavy braking at the track with trd springs/shocks. It has been posted here that lowering a mcpherson strut suspension is anti-productive and unfortunately that is what we have up front.

What I noticed is the car has a severe amount of understeer that almost scared me. Once the car started letting go up front there was no way to control the turn withought re-gaining traction first. I think the camber kit is going to be needed in order to dial the car in for the twisties. I don't know what the factory cambet is but it felt in the positive and on a car like the TC I'd want my camber in the negatives. Although we can't really control the roll center, lowering the car 2" all the way around probably improves this a bit as a higher roll center is more desireable.

Actually, people have observed at the limit lift throttle OVERsteer, even bone stock, which is surely scarier for novice drivers (or fwd drivers in general) than understeer. Usually all you do if you start plowing is let off the gas but here that may send the back end out a little if not done with care especially if you stiffen up the rear sway bar only. The slow-in, fast-out approach is definately in effect here. People have also reported the rear end getting really loose under heavy braking at the track with trd springs/shocks. It has been posted here that lowering a mcpherson strut suspension is anti-productive and unfortunately that is what we have up front.


I'm sorry, i must have meant oversteer....good info on the struts and springs.

to base an opinion on the amount the tC threads were viewed... I would assume that a very limited amount of tC interest was in regards to suspension and handling.

I personally think this may be one of the most important areas to consider in this car.

Handling is above looks and HP in my book... but contributes to both equally.

Just an observation.
I hope this area is more trafficed in the future. :pray: So we can all learn more about our options.

Well said brother. The tC in many ways reminds me of the Porsche 944, and for
years it was the same thing in those forums too.

After a few years though, they realized the BEST "performance mod" they could
do, was take an advanced drivers ed course to learn how to push the car properly.

*then* handling and making it lighter came into play.

The tC in many ways reminds me of the Porsche 944, and for
years it was the same thing in those forums too.

After a few years though, they realized the BEST "performance mod" they could
do, was take an advanced drivers ed course to learn how to push the car properly.

*then* handling and making it lighter came into play.

hehe our cars remind people of porsche's? wow maybe i'm not giving it the credit it deserves with my 'sporty commuter' comment :lalala: :P who would've thought one needed driving lessons to handle a FF NA 4 banger! :lol:

Driving "lessons" are always a great mod.

Track days are always available.
But remember, they are addictive and must be done after every few mods or so...

hehehe

By the way, my site is working on producing a Scion Challenge. A time attack on the track. Get ready.

The car does have moderate UNDERsteer in normal conditions. The car can get a little light in the back, but you have to execute some pretty serious weigh shifting. Engine braking at high RPM's will probably do it (lift-off oversteer), and very heavy breaking will most certainly do it (as it does on many FF coupes). Weight transfer is a little easier on this car, probably because of the heavy glass roof that sits at the very top of it. :)

I wonder how long before we see some tC's feint drifting on videos? :lalala:

With stock rubber at stock height, feint drifting is a breeze.

having owned a 87 944S, I can say that in no way does my tc remind me of the 944. Nearly every aspect of the porsche was different. Just my $0.02 :)

Ok, I'll put it this way. If you find yourself experiencing understeer, the WRONG thing to do is suddenly completely lift off the throttle while continuing to pull on the wheel a little. The car will rapidly shift from an understeer to oversteer condition - if you've never had a car that acted that way its a bit unnerving the first time you do it.

The front tires which just a moment before were not getting much traction will suddenly grab the road and pull you back into the turn, and the back end will get loose.

I'm used to cars that get loose on one end or the other, but the tC is the first car I've had where you can both ends to get loose in rapid sucession without being on ice or something...

Anyhow, since that experience, I've learned to keep my foot on the throttle a little even while lifting off to reduce understeer and its not a problem anymore.

what about trail braking? When entering a turn keep slight braking pressure to keep the front end planted. obviously you can over brake and kill yourself, so moderation is key

I've noticed that this section does not move much as well.
Just curious, Mighty, what do you think would have to be done to the tC to get it's handling closeing to your old Mini?

just ordered my Tein SS coilovers with EDFC and hotchkis swaybars. i definatly agree the suspension is the first thing that should be tweaked with...my old sunbird could corner better with the little 14's i was rollin on. but i think a good addition to the corner carvers section should be a good tech article explaining technique and ways to improve heel/toe downshifting. ive been working on it for a few months now that i have a car where the brake and accelerator pedals are near the same height and could use some pointers on how to make the motion feel more natural.

Mr Meaty, A lot! But that's not to say it's impossible or implausible.

First, light weight wheels and sticky tires

Best thing you can do would be to instal adjustable eveything. Coilovers struts springs sways camber ... etc

New motor mount/bushings

There are many options and I am interested in looking into all of them

Lightening the load can't hurt either.

We all notice that at stock height and stock rubber, we can slide fairly easily. That must be taken care of, to limit the car's own limit of adhesion.

Heel toe ... that's a good one, it's not easy to learn, it can take months of daily practice to perfect, some never do.

Watch some Option or Best Motoring DVD's, they usually have some great pedal cams.

I am willing to bet, that A well tuned suspension on a Stock tC VERSUS the NITTO Turbo tC on a tight road course... Would show the power of a well tuned suspension.

If any vendors want to work with me on that, please contact me..

hehehe

That would be sweet. I just dont' think there are enough suspension parts out yet.
Before I got the tC, I was conidering a used MR2 Spyder. That thing handled like a gokart. But in the end, those 30,000 used miles and lack of back seat lost the deal. I'm gonna do whatever I can to get the tC to handle like that! Wish me luck!

With stock tires I pulled .82gs just like the spec sheet. I have a g-sensor with my apexi rsm which logs it all... With 18x8s and a salty road I pulled .89. I should be able to pull a G this spring, I'll post up when I do.

Only other mod was H&R springs.

I live in Temecula but don't have weekends off, are there tracks open near me during the week that I can go to? How much does it cost and are there any prerequisites that I need like helmet or something?

The best thing to improve the handling of the tC is stickier tires. One of the reasons it understeers so much is the tires just don't grip well.

The seconds bes thing would be to adjust the camber/caster/toe/etc. The suspension on the tC is very adjustable, and you would be experiencing serious tire wear issues before you ran out of adjustment and needed camber plates or other additional adjustable parts.

Personally, I'm not just looking for the best handling at the moment, My first major mod was the TRD springs which I did for looks as much as performance. They make a good deal of difference and the car feels much less floaty now. I also installed the TRD rear sway bar which is easy to do and reduces the amount of understeer considerably.

If the Hotchkis front and rear sway bar set were available when I got my TRD rear sway bar, I might have gotten those. I'm a firm believer in stiff sway bars and realtively soft suspension (and not using stiff springs and shocks to control body roll) to give you a good compromise between performance and drivablity, especially in the tC, which I consider to be equal parts of sport and luxury.

There's not much activity in this area because most people on the board don't understand the difference between a strut tower brace and a sway bar, nor why one is a real suspension piece and the other is more for fashion.

There's not much activity in this area because most people on the board don't understand the difference between a strut tower brace and a sway bar, nor why one is a real suspension piece and the other is more for fashion.
I agree. There is a dramatic difference between this message board and the MR2Spyder message board I was on when considering one of those. But I guess that goes towards the type of car. The tC is a $16k sporty economy car and draws that sort of crowd while the Spyder is a $22 rear wheel drive two seater weekend romper with 0 trunk space...not your typical college student car.
I think most peopel in the market for a tC are more conserned with looks and HP numbers.

I miss my 944 :cry: best damned car I ever owned until a Miata took her out.

the size and the tc being a fwd lend itself to the performance qualities of a Strut tower brace than many other cars. The torque output by the motor alone causes a flex. It's good to stabalize that flex with a STB, too bad it's set up so funky.

car handles pretty damn good stock. AND there are no adjustable shocks/struts out yet. (that's what i'm waiting for as I am NOT paying $300-$500 for NONadjustable TRDs!)

Dont know what your talking about Tein has had em out for a while now.... I got the ss-p's

car handles pretty damn good stock. AND there are no adjustable shocks/struts out yet. (that's what i'm waiting for as I am NOT paying $300-$500 for NONadjustable TRDs!)

Dont know what your talking about Tein has had em out for a while now.... I got the ss-p's

wow, $1250 to $1400! too expensive for this daily driver, i'm looking for shocks/struts only not coilovers.

wow, $1250 to $1400! too expensive for this daily driver, i'm looking for shocks/struts only not coilovers.
Hopup Racing (http://www.hopupracing.com/suspension69.html) has the Tien Basic Coilovers for just $864. I think that's about how much it would coast for the TRD springs and shocks. They also have the Tien Super Street for $1187.50!

wow, $1250 to $1400! too expensive for this daily driver, i'm looking for shocks/struts only not coilovers.
Hopup Racing (http://www.hopupracing.com/suspension69.html) has the Tien Basic Coilovers for just $864. I think that's about how much it would coast for the TRD springs and shocks. They also have the Tien Super Street for $1187.50!
Basic dampers aren't rebound adjustable. I'm hoping for some ~$600 konis and ~$300 springs which would still be almost $300 less than the super street kit. i don't need height adjustability.

I've noticed a spike in the Corner Carvers since my first post in this thread! This makes me very happy!

Keep it up, there is a lot of information to be had! And I want to have it!

Speaking of which...when are you gonna start working on your tc, Mini?

When time is available. And when I've researched enough. I already have my leather/suede interior.

My front end is all chipped up...it adds character, in an annoying sense.

I also have another car I'm planning. S14Found it, doing an auto-manual conversion, roll cage, stripped, dual turbos if possible... etc

But that project might be scrapped for tC upgrades

When time is available. And when I've researched enough. I already have my leather/suede interior.

My front end is all chipped up...it adds character, in an annoying sense.

I also have another car I'm planning. S14Found it, doing an auto-manual conversion, roll cage, stripped, dual turbos if possible... etc

But that project might be scrapped for tC upgrades

two turbos on a car with an inline 4 is retarded.

I've noticed a spike in the Corner Carvers since my first post in this thread! This makes me very happy!

Keep it up, there is a lot of information to be had! And I want to have it!

from what i've read if you want it to perform you gotta have reverse rake, with linear front springs not too much lower than stock to combat the lift-throttle/trail brake oversteer condition these top heavy cars are plagued with. also if you have the RE92's throw them away and get better rubber.

also if you have the RE92's throw them away and get better rubber.
I second that. Although tires have a low 'bling' factor, upgrading from stock generally gives you the best bang-for-the-buck handling improvment.

Besides you can save the RE-92's and keep em for winter.

too bad that they SUCK in the winter!

Besides you can save the RE-92's and keep em for winter.
Yeah, they perform about the same in snow/ice as dry :rofl:

wow, $1250 to $1400! too expensive for this daily driver, i'm looking for shocks/struts only not coilovers.
Hopup Racing (http://www.hopupracing.com/suspension69.html) has the Tien Basic Coilovers for just $864. I think that's about how much it would coast for the TRD springs and shocks. They also have the Tien Super Street for $1187.50!

You want Tein let me know.... I got great deals on it.. 864 for basic? isnt retail on there site 840 on tein.com

When time is available. And when I've researched enough. I already have my leather/suede interior.

My front end is all chipped up...it adds character, in an annoying sense.

I also have another car I'm planning. S14Found it, doing an auto-manual conversion, roll cage, stripped, dual turbos if possible... etc

But that project might be scrapped for tC upgrades

two turbos on a car with an inline 4 is retarded.

:no:

Speak when you know what's happening. Obviously you do not know.

Using the word retarded in uncalled for and I am offended.

:no: :nope: :loser:

You want Tein let me know.... I got great deals on it.. 864 for basic? isnt retail on there site 840 on tein.com
No, they are $890 on their site. What can you get them for?

You want Tein let me know.... I got great deals on it.. 864 for basic? isnt retail on there site 840 on tein.com
No, they are $890 on their site. What can you get them for?

If your truly intrested let me know

You want Tein let me know.... I got great deals on it.. 864 for basic? isnt retail on there site 840 on tein.com
No, they are $890 on their site. What can you get them for?

after checking up on everything... 868 shipped with tax and all that crap

i got my tein basics for 750 :o

nice duma! where?

Just a little FYI. Scion lifers get a little discount. i could do 10% off for Scion Life members. This is high high end stuff. Tein basic? hehe. Ever see Tein sleeves after some time?

the steel Tein ss's and ha's will certainly rust. the aluminum ra's and re's will not. compare prices of those models

http://www.partshippers.com/images/RSX_coil_overs.jpg

I don't have a TC photo yet...but they are available. this is for an RSX

Here is the TC purchase link
http://www.partshippers.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&manufacturers_id=74&products_id=761

please PM me

Pm'd

Just a little FYI. Scion lifers get a little discount. i could do 10% off for Scion Life members. This is high high end stuff. Tein basic? hehe. Ever see Tein sleeves after some time?

the steel Tein ss's and ha's will certainly rust. the aluminum ra's and re's will not. compare prices of those models

http://www.partshippers.com/images/RSX_coil_overs.jpg

I don't have a TC photo yet...but they are available. this is for an RSX

Here is the TC purchase link
http://www.partshippers.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&manufacturers_id=74&products_id=761

do you have the spring rate on those?

I'll have more info for you tomorrow...but

They are 75series which means...

75 Series Coil-overs are rebuildable and revalveable shocks

If i remember correctly...

Spring rates of 350 in/lb in the front and 250 in/lb in the rear are standard for the Sentra. However, for hardcore racers, customized spring rates will also be available with rates of up to 600 in/lbs. Don't quote me...i'm getting definite answers tomorrow for you on the TC specifically.

Just a little FYI. Scion lifers get a little discount. i could do 10% off for Scion Life members. This is high high end stuff. Tein basic? hehe. Ever see Tein sleeves after some time?

the steel Tein ss's and ha's will certainly rust. the aluminum ra's and re's will not. compare prices of those models

http://www.partshippers.com/images/RSX_coil_overs.jpg

I don't have a TC photo yet...but they are available. this is for an RSX

Here is the TC purchase link
http://www.partshippers.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&manufacturers_id=74&products_id=761


I have seen tein coilovers after heavy use... never seen rust... on the car for 3 years.

I hear the newer teins finally have a teflon coating in thier paint. Tein in the past has been known to show signs of rust. I've even seen the sleeves lock in place. Its possible the newer stuff is better but the older sure wasn't. The rust never hurt performance of the shock...it was cosmetic only unless the sleeve wouldn't turn anymore of course.

true...

suspension will be the last thing I change on my tC.

the car needs more horsepower before I'm worrying about looks, brakes, or suspension.

suspension will be the last thing I change on my tC.

the car needs more horsepower before I'm worrying about looks, brakes, or suspension.

i have to disagree there, unless you are building a drag racer, a better suspension (and definately tires) will make much better use of the power you already have. i learned that with my old civic (its 76hp became tremendously more useful once i didn't need to brake as much). plus these cars have a kinda twitchy suspension setup...

suspension, brakes, power (then maybe brakes again ;P)

lol, don't get mad at me for asking this, cuz I'm stupid and don't catch on easily, but does all this underseer stuff apply to AT's, and if so.... how fast would I have to be taking a corner (assuming there are perfect road conditions) in order for it to lose control? is it ok for those occasional times where u have to spead ahead of traffic, but then slow down really fast to make a tight turn? (I know it sounds stupid, but just go with me here)

Another thing, Understeer means that the front wheels lose traction, and the steering wheel goes crazy and you can't control it right?

Thanks for putting up with my stupid questions,
Matt :P

lol, don't get mad at me for asking this, cuz I'm stupid and don't catch on easily, but does all this underseer stuff apply to AT's, and if so.... how fast would I have to be taking a corner (assuming there are perfect road conditions) in order for it to lose control? is it ok for those occasional times where u have to spead ahead of traffic, but then slow down really fast to make a tight turn? (I know it sounds stupid, but just go with me here)

Another thing, Understeer means that the front wheels lose traction, and the steering wheel goes crazy and you can't control it right?

Thanks for putting up with my stupid questions,
Matt :P

Yes it applies to AT's. The cornering speed will be variable depending on the conditions. Because our cars are front wheel drive, we have understeer which means that if you want to turn the car sharply, in some instances it will just keeep going straight without turning.

bka

http://www.yuri.sakura.ne.jp/~right/equipment/jmsdf/other/snowplow-dump/snowplow-dump_01.jpg

bka

http://www.yuri.sakura.ne.jp/~right/equipment/jmsdf/other/snowplow-dump/snowplow-dump_01.jpg
i dont get it

^^^^I dont get it either

never heard the term snow plowing?

never heard the term snow plowing?

Ever been to Southern California?

sure...no snow...but its a common term

sure...no snow...but its a common term

So what exactly does BKA stand for?

Best Known As

Its a reference to how if you have the wheels pointed to the side but you are still going in a straight line it looks like you have two little snowplows on the front of the car.

And, as has been discussed in other threads, if you do this in a tC and then suddenly take your foot completely off the throttle, the front end will dive, grab, and come around so hard that it makes the back end lift, lose traction, break loose and come around. You will quickly go from an understeer to an oversteer situation and anyone who says they weren't alarmed by it the first time it happened to them either didn't really do it or is a liar.

If you ease off the throttle when in understeer its a lot more predictable.

suspension will be the last thing I change on my tC.

the car needs more horsepower before I'm worrying about looks, brakes, or suspension.


:clap: :rofl: :rofl: :no:

with great power comes great responsibilty.

:rofl:

suspension 1st
there is no point to up your hp if you can't control it.
Or stop adequately.

To lend some perspective to other n00bs like me, here's a good image of oversteer vs understeer:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/car_behaviour/default.stm

http://slate.msn.com/id/2081194/

little article

...does all this underseer stuff apply to AT's, and if so.... how fast would I have to be taking a corner (assuming there are perfect road conditions) in order for it to lose control? is it ok for those occasional times where u have to spead ahead of traffic, but then slow down really fast to make a tight turn?
Yes it applies to AT's. The cornering speed will be variable depending on the conditions. Because our cars are front wheel drive, we have understeer which means that if you want to turn the car sharply, in some instances it will just keeep going straight without turning.
OK, well the general 'rule of thumb' is FWD cars understeer and RWD cars oversteer. Sure either could be setup to do the opposite (as ours seem to be under certain conditions) but that is generally how it is. Understeer is easier for a 'normal' driver to handle as all one has to do is let off the gas a little and the front end should hook back up. Oversteer requires the right amount of countersteer (so as not to induce a slide in the opposite direction if traveling fast enough). Transmission may make it easier (or harder) to induce a spin but weight transfer, burning out/locking the rear tires affect it moreso. Since our cars are top heavy 'slowing down really fast to make a tight turn' may induce oversteer regardless of transmission type. BUT if you are on the throttle then our cars do have minimal to moderate (depending on who you ask, my old civic had EXTREME understeer as there was no way short of yanking the ebrake to get that sucker around) understeer.