im jus wondering if the TC is good for autoxing

Unless you're a serious auto-xer, or even mildly serious, yes. There's a lot left to the driver(s).

yea im goin to try it out my friends are takin me to this course to see if my car can handle it ?? ill see how it gose

There are quite a few people that autox theirs. Including myself. Get working on your suspension though and get some good tires. Worry about engine mods later if you're serious. This thing has a good amount of torque and pulls pretty good around the cones.

There are quite a few people that autox theirs. Including myself. Get working on your suspension though and get some good tires. Worry about engine mods later if you're serious. This thing has a good amount of torque and pulls pretty good around the cones.

jeez i didnt think anyone else was awake at this time in the morning. Props.

I am planning on autocrossing mine this summer. Hopefully, the RS 1.0 will help me out a bit. Coming stock with a strut bar and really sticky tires, it shouldn't do too bad. I can't wait to hit the track.

Only concern I'd have with the RS1 is the 18" wheels. But they might be OK. Just be sure to bump up your tire pressure a bit before you run. But really, the strut bar won't help as much as you might like it to. Though that might automatically put you into STS, even though it's OEM for the RS1.

I thought anything that was OEM kept you eligible for the stock class (can't remember the abbreviation), including the stock strut bar. I guess I will just have to wait and see.

Well the tC would be in H Stock (HS)... but usually suspension mods like that will push you into a different class. It might be tough with it being OEM though. You'd probably have to ask the judges when you register.

i was in hstock until i got the trd shocks/springs. they put me into sts. along with sway bars.

and yes, tc is quite good in the auto-x. even with stock suspension, ive done better than people with much better cars and setups.

though, of course, a lot of autox's (here anyway) are filled with very high end cars, which pretty much puts me in the bottom half. we do have limitations like a 3000lbs car with no LSD.

biggest difference: TIRES TIRES TIRES. im still running stock tires, 27,000 miles later. they're OKAY, but, when the courses get tight, you need TIRES. cant stress that enough.

But the bottom line is if you're not serious in the competition, just have fun!

I have hankook ventus 405's on my mr2, good tires, but nothing special or remarkable. They also only cost $70-$75 a tire, and I would rather save money and have longer treadwear compared to shedding 3-4 seconds off an auto-x I might go to once or twice a year.

JIN, a car is only as good as its driver.

A buddy of mine has an Evo. His first event I smoked his times with my stock 98 2.0 GTI—a dog of a car—and it had nothing to do with his car's handling.

The one thing that most of the posts above don't address: AutoX is as much—or more— about driver skill as it is about car capabilities. If you're getting beat by cars in your class more than likely it's your driving. If you doubt me, drive your car for a run or two. Then let one of the more experienced drivers—such as the driver with the best time of the day—have at it. I guarantee the veteran driver schools you.

The reason I say this is that you might be discouraged after your first event. The normal reflex is to blame the car's handling and think that dumping money into the car is the best solution. The best solution for to improve your times is to become a better driver by attending schools and as many autoXs as you can.

Ha... that reminds me of some kid that showed up with a twin turbo supra at one of our events... he was terrible. Way too much car for hiim to handle. He thought he was a big tough guy with it, but pretty much everyone was laughing at him b/c we could all tell he had no clue how to handle all that power.

^ you should've offered your driving services to him

in case you guys want to see some autox action, here are some vids we transferred. the ones marked ArdieXX.wmv are of my tc.

http://www.hunterunknown.com/autox/

http://www.lvrscca.org/photo6/ax_round_01/images/_DSC7587.jpg

http://www.lvrscca.org/photo6/ax_round_01/images/_DSC7588.jpg

"YEAH ARTIE YOU CAN DO IT!!!" :clap:

That looks like a blast!

hmmm auto Xing with the roof open?
thats weird.

Here are a couple from one of my events:

http://www.glen-scca.org/solo/2005/images20050731/images/0444.JPG

http://www.glen-scca.org/solo/2005/images20050731/images/Am_I_too_wide.jpg

Some kid was taking pics when it wasn't his run group. I'd like to have my g/f take some nice pics this year at some of the events.

"YEAH ARTIE YOU CAN DO IT!!!" :clap:

That looks like a blast!

haha :D it is! its totally awesome.

oh and i kept the roof open because the helmet wouldnt fit otherwise :(

oh and i kept the roof open because the helmet wouldnt fit otherwise :(
HAHA... Ditto.

I've got my 1st autox of the year coming up March 5th. I'll be sure to take some pictures.

Where can you get certified helmets w/out breaking your bank. I have a motorcyle helmet but the scca said that it was not ok for auto-x

Each region has different requirements...In Philly Snell M or SA 95 or newer, open face or closed.
I just picked up on of these click here (http://www.bellhelmets.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=99).

Also, most events have loaner helmets for you to use.

^^ Ya, I totally just use a loaner one. Just haven't picked up my own yet.

www.helmetcity.com

I just went through alot of ____ to get me tC fixed, and im dying to autox this summer, but really cant mess my car up anymore. How significant is the risk of damaging my tC? Is it a dependable car for autoX?

very...no worries

ive done it maybe 9 times now, and its still juuuust fine

Well the tC would be in H Stock (HS)... but usually suspension mods like that will push you into a different class. It might be tough with it being OEM though. You'd probably have to ask the judges when you register.

Can you give me any advice on suspension setup and class?

Hotchkis sways are on the way. I planned on installing trd springs also. I'm firm on TRD's because of ride height. I'm not in a good area to slam. I'm guessing coilovers and braces would push me into a higher more competitive class.

Usually motorbike helmets are considered acceptable for autocrossing... according to all the clubs around this region. So, double check with your local clubs about that, because motorbike helmets are much cheaper than autoracing helmets. But if you think you might hit a track event one day, it'll be good to have a proper autoracing spec helmet.

Here's a few incar autocross videos I've made over the last few years, if anyone's interested. A few MR2 runs but mostly my Z06, all with R-compound tires. Sorry, nothing Scion related in there.

http://www.derangedkiwi.net/index.php?view=autoxvid

I am tempted to try running my '06 xA in STS one of these days... just to see what it's capable of. It's better to learn the limits of a car in a controlled situation where there's nothing to fear :)

I highly recommend anyone who's even remotely interested in trying autocrossing to go ahead and try at least one event out. As mentioned above, if nothing else, you'll have a stress free, fun, and legal environment to wail on your car and learn what it's limits are, and your limits too!

How do the classes work? Do certain parts add a specified number of points? If so which parts add lots of points and which only add a few?

Exhaust only add a few horses if they can bump you a class-not a good part. Stock header with gutted cat stealth power bump. Same with suspension. Sway bars=huge difference. Springs some difference.

Stock tC = HS Class. There is some room for modifications but not many. Cat Back exhaust, different air filter(but in the stock air box), new struts/shocks, R-compound tires on stock size wheels of any weight, different front sway bar. There are one or two gray areas I am checking on with the SCCA right now I'll let you know what I find out.

Things like springs, different rear sway bar, header, different intake, and so on will put you in a different class.

As of right now HS looks like the most competitive class for the tC. We will have to wait for people like RamAudio to get his fully build tC out on track to see how it competes against high horsepower RWD and AWD cars. For our cars to be competitive in the other classes it will have to have an LSD.

How do the classes work? Do certain parts add a specified number of points? If so which parts add lots of points and which only add a few?

In SCCA auto-x, there are five categories of classes: Stock, Street Prepared, Prepared, Modified, and Street Tire. There are nine stock classes, 6 street prepared, 6 prepared, 6 modified, and 4 or 5 street tire.

In stock classes, you can do some limited changes as outlined in a post above. In street prepared, you can use any intake and exhaust system, but you can't touch the engine internals. Also in SP you can use any suspension pieces but keep the stock configuration, and any wheel & tire but no body mods.

Prepared is a step above--you can gut the interior, take off bumpers, etc.

Modified is for dedicated race cars--open wheel and the like.

Street tire class is for the "tuner car", and has similar rules to SP, but with street tires instead of race tires.

With SP and ST, you need to do all legal mods to be competitive. If you do one mod that's not allowed in stock, then that bumps you up to SP or ST. But if you're learning, then it doesn't really matter what your class is.

That being said, it's best to learn on slow cars, and HS is the slowest class.

Rear sway is already in; since rear sway and 225/45 17 kumho's make a HUGE difference versus stock tc i'd like to leave them. My other planned mods were flywheel(on the way and clutch is slipping), pulley(installed), intake, and either gutted factory or aftermarket header. Since exhaust show small gains and I like stealth anyway I'm content to leave exhaust alone for now.

If I make the mods listed above should I do springs and exhaust as well(as in same class)? These two mods are the ones I least want to do. Springs because I can barely get a jack under the car now and exhaust because they are mucho overpriced versus power gained.

You forgot Street Modified, Which is Any suspension with stock mounting points, Any Drivetrain Modifications/Swap (For us it must be a toyota/scion/lexus block), Some body panel mods (CF Hood, front fenders, ect.), any braking system, any wheels with any DOT tire, strip the inside (Must have 2 front seats) .

Something noone mentioned is that both Stock and ST classes require OEM cats. If you gut yours someone will protest you.

If you are really curious about the rules you can check them out online @ http://www.scca.org/_filelibrary/File/2006_solo_rules.pdf.
Also chek out http://sccaforums.com/default.aspx if you have questions :)

Have'nt had time to read the rules yet-maybe this evening.
In stock form the tc's low end thrust is reasonable but its handling sucks. I seriously doubt it could compete on anything close to even terms with a stock civic si or even worse a RX8 due to its camry suspension. This problem is easily remedied however with a rear sway bar and tires. I feel like rear springs instead of the sway would not be sufficient.
I'm trying to setup to be competitive. Now, I have extreme confidence in my skills but lets face it: if i'm going head to head with a corvette Z06 I'm going to be at a huge disadvantage. I'm interested in a competition of skills not a competition of cars.

If adding a rear swaybar is going to put me in a class with race ready monsters then its got to go. I really need advice on which class the tc will be the most competitive in and every part than can be modded in that class.
I also realize that it would be easier to just go check it out. Problem is that I work weekends and Saturdays and Sundays off are in scarce supply.

^^ You're not going head to head with a Z06... or even the RX8. They're in other classes. You're going head to head with Ford Focuses and such - in a stock class.

The "monsters" you refer to generally do not end up in STS (where a sway bar would put you). That's fully of Civics or Neons or something with "something" done to them.

If you've never been, I'd recommend you go watch one or two first. THEN enter if you can. Usually the events are like 11am until 4 or 5. But if you're racing, you usually need to be there before 9 for registration and walkthrough and meetings and such.

Yeah deffinetly not running head to head with them. But they do PAX timing and have some kind of correction for the vehicle that puts you on a level playing field with everything from a cadilac to a racecar.
Makes it fun to see how your driving compares.

Here is what is allowed-if i'm reading the rules correctly.

STOCK Class:

Tires (must be approved)
Wheels (stock diameter + width)
Struts
Front Sway Bar (no rear)
Brake Pads
Air Filter (no intakes)
Cat-Back Exhaust
NOTHING ELSE

STREET TOURING Class:

Tires (225 max width/140 min treadwear)
Wheels (7.5" max width)
Struts (coilovers???)
Springs
Sway Bars
Strut Bars
Camber Plates
Performance Rotors (stock size only)
Performance Intake
Pulleys (no supercharger pulley changes)
Motor Mounts
Variable Valve Timing Controllers (camcon)

NO Header Changes(due to cat rule)
NO Engine Dampers
NO Flywheel/Clutch Changes

Because of the weak factory suspension it seems like the stock class would not be a good place for the tc.

I'm hoping to have my sway bars in time for this years events (start up in may) and I'm hoping that'll really help me out. I did "OK" last year. Was usually the middle of the pack. But I was in STS with just lowering springs.

So I guess it should be said again that any ONE of those things changed will push you into STS. So if you have planned upgrades and they're for autox, you should wait and do more at once if you can.

I'm hoping to have my sway bars in time for this years events (start up in may) and I'm hoping that'll really help me out. I did "OK" last year. Was usually the middle of the pack. But I was in STS with just lowering springs.

So I guess it should be said again that any ONE of those things changed will push you into STS. So if you have planned upgrades and they're for autox, you should wait and do more at once if you can.

I say go STS and do as many as your budget allows. No header kinda sucks tho.

I'm guessing suspension is by far the most essential area needing tuned for a good autox car. Hothkis sways made a huge difference. Now my kumho ecsta ASX's(.92g) are my weakest link. SPT's good for .96g. Which springs did you use?

I have Hotchkis springs. By themselves, I don't think they made too much difference in times or anything. But hopefully they'll help with sways. And I also have new tires ready to mount as soon as the weather doesn't suck. BFG gForce TA KDW2.

lets all keep in mind it doesnt matter who you're "head to head" against. you're against the clock, period. and most people will beat a tc with anything lighter.

You can change headers in STS, just better make sure the Cat doesn't get relocated more than 6"

You can change headers in STS, just better make sure the Cat doesn't get relocated more than 6"

tc's primary cat is inside the factory header :doh:

The test and tune in the tC went well. The car is going to be fun, it likes to rotate. I was on VictoRacer V700, stock susp., and stock alignment. I let one of the better drivers in the region drive it a couple of times he thinks it has a chance to run with the Mini in HS.

It rotates so much that I may put a bigger sway bar on it. But I'm going to work with tire psi first.

I have Hotchkis springs. By themselves, I don't think they made too much difference in times or anything. But hopefully they'll help with sways. And I also have new tires ready to mount as soon as the weather doesn't suck. BFG gForce TA KDW2.

I think with those two mods ya should be much more competitive this season. I've been checking out the KDW's@tirerack-possible the best autox tire there is. Sway bars are going to greatly help also. A 40mph corner I used to take fast but secure@72mph with sways secure@78mph. I think with KDW's i'd be in the low 80's.

Do you know if coilovers are allowed in STS class?

I'm really not sure... I would generally assume yes... since they allow change of shocks/struts and springs. I mean, that's all a coilover is, in theory.

Thats kinda what I thought. Coilovers could endup being $800-$1200 paperweights if not though. Rather be sure before I even consider purchase.

Coilovers are allowed in STS.

I don't know that I would call the KDW's "Best autoX Tire" on paper they look good but 90% of the Nationals people run either Falken Azenis 615's or Kumho MX's and while I'm generally not the person to follow the crowd in this case if everybody is doing it it can't be too wrong.
STS is a tough class to compete in, The Civic's are pretty tough to beat, theres a "Mostly" nationally prepped 89 Si here that averages a time around 4 seconds ahead of what I was running in my xA, (no where near fully prepped) and I was usually as fast or a bit faster than the tC's and xB's here.

Interesting... KDW's show better lap times and pull more G's than Kumho MX's in tirerack testing. Maybe the KDW's are better high speed tires. MX's are about 2 lbs. lighter than KDW's: autox advantage?

I hope the tc's in your area are making a weak showing due to poor tuning and poor drivers. Seems like the tc's torquey engine would offer some advantages. However the heavy body could take all advantage and then some.

Ya, I'm usually in the middle of the pack for STS... but my g/f got my sway bars for my birthday... so that'll help. And no, I don't think they're the "best" autox tire, but I certainly expect them to help quite a bit over stock.

And STS is tough b/c it's a wide range of mods. Anyone from just springs or just a strut bar, to full suspension and some engine mods. There's a 88 or 89 Sentra SE-R that comes down from Rochester occasionally to our meets... he ususally wipes the floor with just about anyone in STS. We've also had some decent SVT Focus people show up. The Civics are usually either way... they usually end up being driver problems even if the car is OK.

91' sentra se-r 2414 lbs. 17.24 lbs./per hp
06' scion tc 2905 lbs. 18.16 lbs./per hp

2400 lb car much more tossable than 2900 lb car with glass roof. Does not sound like apples to apples to me.

So my question would be is the tc really autox-able.

$230 sway bars
$$92 front strut bar
$247 intake
$140 pulley+belt
_____________________
$709 ordered/installed

$600 tires
1100 coilovers
_____________________
1700 more needed to be have a chance

1000 wheels
$300 header
$500 cat-back
$150 motor mounts
$500 camcon w/tuning
$400 rotors
$150 pads
_____________________
3000 more needed to be fully STS modified
_____________________
$5409 Total + Many-Many hours of research and some of install

After this much effort + expense to make the tc a bada$$-losing to someone in a wornout SE-R would be kind of humiliating.

I don't think you'd really need ALL of that... as long as your suspension is setup and you have decent tires, you should at least be able to be competitive. But there's always going to be someone faster. I don't expect to win anything this year, but maybe a podium finish would be nice.

2400 lb car much more tossable than 2900 lb car with glass roof. Does not sound like apples to apples to me. ...$5409 Total + Many-Many hours of research and some of install...
After this much effort + expense to make the tc a bada$$-losing to someone in a wornout SE-R would be kind of humiliating.

But, at the level of preparedness you're talking about, the winner will—more than likely—come down to attention to prep detail (corner-balancing/tire pressure/camber/caster/toe) and more importantly, no, most importantly: driver ability.

Also, autox is NOT about looks, it's about finesse, skill and prep attention...For example, a guy in my region cleans up in a rusty-beat-up-Rocco-with-a-coffee-can-for-a-tail-pipe. And, don't worry you will get beat by people with "worn out"cars....In my first season (in a GS '98 GTI) I got beat (three times) by a guy in a '96 Pontiac Grand Am...four door...automatic. :eyebrow:

:rofl: "'96 Pontiac Grand Am...four door...automatic."

OUCH Especially the automatic part.

So what kind of spring/strut or coilover setup would you recommend? I'm strongly considering progress or not-yet-in-stock buddy club coilovers.

Tire recommendations?

Some great info and advice here guys, some a bit off track though.

Yes, weight is the enemy, lack of control over weight is easily just as important as the weighth itself. A lite car that is not setup properly can be alot slower than a heavier car that is;)

Street Mod class is pretty wild but there are a few rules misquoted here, full interior except rear seat and seat belts must be used.

You can flare our the fenders as wide as you want and run huge tires(we run stock fenders and as wide as we can)

One really cool rule states you can replace any sun or moor roof with any material you wish as long as it bolts into the factory mounting locations. Since the tC has a dual moon/sun/whatever roof, you can replace it all as we did and saved 46 lbs and it stiffened the car alot! This made a tremendous handling improvement.

Our car in autocross trim will be approx 200 lbs lighter than stock but still a huge amount heavier than highly modified civics(due to their weight I believe they should be in SM2 though) which are very fast. The fastest cars though are more likely to be the M3, STI and EVO8 properly prepared which all weight alot more than the TC.

Since we do not expect to have a national championship contender in SM class(though very competitive in our area even though alot of fast cars here) we plan to run with our competition audio system installed just for the hell of it and suprise alot of people by just how fast this car can be:)

Last fall we were only half way done with mods and already suprising alot of people, stock power and the generally terrible gearing work very well on an autocross course;)

The best bet for anybody though is to build the car the way you want and just run whatever class you fall into. OR, pick a class and mod to fit that class and go for it.

Bottom line, have fun, learn to drive in situations you seldom see on the road, it may save your life someday, really.

Rick

The info I posted was based on street touring class.

If the tc is competitive in street modified then it should be even more competitive in street touring.

I like this part the best "stock power and the generally terrible gearing work very well on an autocross course;) "

With a strong suspension which STS allows the tc should be a sic autoxer! :D :love: :D

Biggest problem with the tC is the roof of course but a really stiff rear sway bar helps quite abit with that issue.

Another issue with dropped cars is the suspension geometry get's really screwed up, roll center can be on the ground if you go to low. That equates to a long distance to center of gravitity, which is higher than it should be with that heavy roof. What you end up with is a huge roll couple which is a long distance from the roll center to the center of gravity. This results in a huge amount of leverage which transfers most weight to the outside tires(has very little to do with body roll;), you end up cornering mostly on two tires, overloading them, losing grip, slows you down.

We raised our car up 3/4" from the original fairly low drop and it improved the handling dramatically:)

THE NUMBER ONE ISSUE, is the crappy stock tires, run the softest, widest tires on the lightest, widest wheels you are allowed in your class but the most significant improvement you can possibly make.

That is talking about the car, the driver is far more critical than all other things combined but a good driver will be quite hamstrung with the crappy stock tires.

A basic upgrade for any tC to improve things the best would consist of and in this order:

Tires/wheels/air pressure
Rear sway bar
Rear Camber setting (pretty close to zero, helps stop understear)
Stiffer springs without a great deal of drop, maybe 1.5" max, I have not measured ours, I just test and run what works.
(spring rates are important as well of course but I have not picked ours just yet, still testing other things first)

Learn to drive, go to autocrosses, ask for an instructor drive, ride along, try to get somebody that regularly runs FWD if you can and in your class. I still do instructor rides as often as I can and still learn but it is hard to find one in a FWD that is as quick as what I usually autocross in. Since they are not used to the power and grip of a SM class car they are always alot slower than I am but I do learn a great deal watching and mimicing their moves in my head while on the runs!

Rick

can't wait to auto-x this year!!!

looked thru my photobucket for some pix from last year and found these
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b215/loworbitsi/untitled.jpg

and a picture of my plaque from last year :D for winning my class
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b215/loworbitsi/blurred2.jpg

this year the car is more prepared then last year...

TRD Springs
TRD Shocks
Hotchkis Sway Bars
DC Sports Header
Injen Cold Air Intake
18 Black Tenzo Passion 5's wrapped in Falken Azenis Rt615 225/40R18
and hopefully soon.. a TRD strut tower bar... (won it pending shipment)

I planned to have the following done before the first race:

Buddy Club Coilovers (seperate height + spring settings)(not yet in stock@BC as of 3/9)
Hotchkis Front and Rear Sways (installed)
DC Sports Front Strut Brace (on the way)
Ingalls Rear Strut Brace (ZPI said they should have soon)

ZPI Motor Mounts (available soon)
Injen Intake (got it-not yet installed)
NST Pulley (installed)
Tires now 225/45/17 kumho ecsta ASX (not great/not bad)

More mods as money allows:

(Tires I'm not sure yet)
BFG KDW's (top notch performance in Tirerack testing)(sidewall stabilizers)
Kumho SPT's (out performed all other kumhos in tirerack testing)
Kumho MX's (recommended by another autoxer)(moderate showing in tirerack testing)

Enkei RPF1's
Hotchkis rear camber links
DC sports 4-2-1 header
Magnaflow cat-back
??? rotors
??? pads

This is what I planned to do. The coilovers and tires are the parts I need advice about the most. I'm guessing 18" wheels/tires are essential to be competitive? Any and all advice appreciated.

What class is STSL? I've never heard of that...

Even the rule books only has STS, STS2, STX, and STU.

What class is STSL? I've never heard of that...

Even the rule books only has STS, STS2, STX, and STU.
STS ladies :P

L usually designates Ladies class.

Playing, the car setup looks pretty good, have you tried some different air pressures front to back, just incase you have any understear, just a couple of pounds can make a difference.

Rick

Rick

Haha, beat me too it, I had already typed it and was distracted by a phone call, dang:):)

This year I am getting my daughter out to run her black Mazda 3S 5 door, will be in STS once we do a few things to it.

Rick

L usually designates Ladies class.

Playing, the car setup looks pretty good, have you tried some different air pressures front to back, just incase you have any understear, just a couple of pounds can make a difference.

Rick

Rick
Coming up ... we have our first test and tune april 1st for this season..
thanks for the pointer :)
hoping to improve my lead in the class by even more this year...
and maybe next year end up in STS instead of STSL :P

I have had the pleasure of meeting a few national championship winning women and think that is GREAT that they do so well.

One won the B Street Prepared in her C4 Vette, Rita Wilsey from San Diego, incredibly cool person, and won in the mens class, that is a huge accomplishment for anybody and especially more so for a woman(I thinks she is in her 60's:)

For your future mods, deffinately the FSB, you will feel it right away. If not done I would put the FSB on the soft setting and try the middle and stiffest rear setting. Next I would have the rear camber(as much as possible with stock parts) set upright as possible, this will help the car rotate better, less understeer. Then you can try more or less air in the rear tires to help tweak it a bit more.

Not wise for the street but a bit of toe out, front and rear will make huge gains in turn in response, faster soloms should be the result, much faster. Toe is pretty easy to do with a couple of tricks, I adjust mine at the course many times.

Run as much negative camber up front as possible, if you class does not allow camber plate, get some crash bolts for the struts, You can leave that setting alone for the street it not to wild, I like around -1.5 degrees for all around driving.

Learn to left foot and threshold brake next, not easy to get the hang of and I am still not as good as I wish I was but those techniques can shave a huge amount of time off once you get it down. Most of your breaking should be done in a straight line at the very last moment possible. That way you carry more speed longer, jump on the brakes(ABS can help alot here, threshold is not really the same as none ABS cars in this case, just have to experiment) very hard, let up on the brakes while starting to apply the throttle, delicate balance is required, start your turn in.

Be as smooth in all this as possible, throughout the run, almost all cars are faster if you use fluid movents as it does not through the weight onto one or two tires so violently, you want as much weight distributed as possible on all tires.

No worries though, most fast and well driven FWD cars will lift an inside rear tire when handling is setup correctly and your driving it right.

One more nice change, not to costly, if the rules allow, use an Odyssey PC680 battery for race days at least, some run them all the time even with a small upgraded stereo.

Stock batter is around 38lbs and in a terribly location for handling. We have three different batteries for our car depending on what we are doing that particular weekend. I.E. autocross, road trip, audio competition, etc. They range in weight from 14lbs(PC680), 24 lbs(PC925), 36lbs(PC1200)
Whatever one we have in the car is in the rear over the axle as far forward as possible, offset to passenger side, batter box cut into and welded to the rear floor.

A couple of more pointers I just thought of, do not bother with a rear STB(there are no rear strut towers anyway). A C pillar bar will do little if any good as well. A B pillar bar across the floor is not needed, the stock design already has it built in well enough for our needs.

Run with the windows down, seldom hit speeds high enough to worry about aerodyamics on most autocross courses but it does lower the center of gravity a bit.

If they allow it, remove the rear seat, the bottom is low in weight, the top is very heavy.

Whatever seats are in the car, if not being used when you run, lower the seat backs as much as possible, slide passenger seat all the way to the rear, it helps a bit as well, I do this even with a passenger in the seat(cannot lower the backs now as we have fixed back, 14.6 lb seats now:)

HAVE fun!!!

Rick



Rick

GREAT info Rick.. thank you! I really appreciate it.

Most welcome:)

Rick

Why is there even a ladies class in autox? Its not like basketball where they would be at a physical disadvantage. Women compete in drag racing, regularly beating the guys in the same class. B.S. IMO.

Actually b/c they weigh less they have the advantage :P

Weight is a sore issue for me right now, first time in my nearly 54 years I need to lose 20 lbs and yet I will spend hundreds, if not thousands on taking weight off the car instead of losing some myself, lol! I just can't give up all my favorite micro brews!!!!

About women, it is not lack of ability, it is mostly lack of experience since women are not generally aggressive as men in such activities they do not have the skills as well developed. Fast effective driving takes experience, muscle memory has to be learned at a very deep level, feeling what the car is doing, reacting instinctively, there is not alot of time to think when racing, far less when autocrossing.

Once those skills are learned, when you drive mostly by feel, react automatically to the smallest of imputs, only then can you truely be fast and that just takes time.

The only difference I see between the sexes is we practice driving agressively more (though most young guns are alot worse at being fast than they think they are, video games do not translate well to real world, no tactil feel and that is paramount to learning to be fast)

Rick

That makes a kind of sense. However it seems that autox would have the most appeal to ladies who are already agressive drivers. I kinda doubt Ms. Playindagamewell was a meek driver before autoxing.

As for me I'm 33 and I used to take my aggression/frustration out on gravel roads in my early 20s. I was out drifting the @$$-end around 90 degree corners before I ever heard of rally or drift.

As for the video games-they do teach good concepts. Such as hard breaking right before a corner while the car is still balanced then accelerating thru it. What they don't teach is real-life remaining in control while pushing a car to the very limits of control. As you already know you have to go right to the limit and maintain constant control. A split second screwup can be disasterous. This is the beauty of autox-serious injuries are highly unlikely. However autox won't seperate the men from the boys as well as a place like pikes peak.

Very well put and I even agree about video games being a good teacher for certain aspects of driving, my son learned a good line, late braking, etc, but he has alot more to learn in applying the skills and only real experience can teach that, as you know as well:)

I also grew up in the country on gravel, snow packed, rain slick twisty highways, sideways was my way of life!!

I have proven on many occasions I can be quite fast but I have never been exceptionally smooth which would improve my times(not just autocrossing, I do other things as well;)

I have handed my cars over to more talented(sould say gifted!) drivers and shown just how much I may never learn.
But my last car was such a handful to drive, 250WHP in A Matrix that still had alot of room to improve the suspention, brakes pistons not sized right, etc, even the national champs that drove it could not come close to me. That was due to the required very agressive driving style to make it fast and it truely was. But, getting it dialed in and then learning to be smoother, would of been far quicker and we were already .01 out of second place twice in SM class in So Cal, some pretty quick cars their(the guy that always took first was an 8 time national champ)

We are on a quest with the tC to get every once of handling, braking and will have more than enough power(will have to turn it down most likely but I hate doing that;)

On the agenda to test is wether or not to remove the ABS and wether to run 225 or 246 Hoosier autocross slicks on our 17x8 wheels. I wish I could get wider wheels but our sponsor does not have them available for us. 245 will allow more rubber on the road but less overall control of the sidewalls than 225s, hmmmmm. Would have to roll the fenders for sure as like to run very little rear camber, helps rotate the rear.

I am considering stagering the tires, 245 front, 225 rear.

Rick

What struts or coilovers would you recommend for use in street touring class? I'm strongly leanin toward Buddy Club coilovers that should be available very soon.

http://www.buddyclub.us/buddyclub/top_m.html

Also I gather from your last post 18's are not essential to be competitive in a tc. What are some of the best tires in 225/45/17 (140 min treadwear per STS rulebook)?

Doubt i'll go street modified class unless I get sponsored. Too expensive to be competitive in that class.

18s will actually hinder you. The weight of larger wheels (unsprung weight) is more detremental than weight elsewhere on the car. If you can get ultra-ultra-light 18s then maybe. If 16s fit over then to go that way.

No idea on buddy club coilovers, any decent one should help alot but having seperate height adjustable, like B@G soon to be released, Megan soon as well and now BC, that is a nice step above spring perch height changes because you can set the corner weights better and have the car more level, full travel, etc, just more adjustable.

Main issue is not being dual adjustable, I would give my left *** for a dual adjustable set of coilovers!!!! Still beter to have at least single adjustable damping instead of a fixed rate shock so not all is lost:)

Even if 18s weight the same they move much of the weight towards the outside perimeter and still negatively effect acceleration and stopping. Plus sidewalls need to be stiff but to stiff and you can break traction more over bumps as well as break things more on the street.

I do like the looks of reasonable big wheels but not wagon train wheels on any car. I actually saw a purple 67 Caprice drop top with 26" wheels at an upholstery shop last week, god it about made me puke!!! The shop owner was not to please to even have it there, lol!

Rick

i'm not a good enough of a driver yet to make a difference for having 18's instead of 17's

i would consider myself somewhat of an aggressive driver.. but i still have a LOT of work to do to get more aggressive then i am at the moment.. especially on the auto-x forum...

Your tires and wheels are the most important mod you can make, do not take them lightly! :):)

But, it would be better to have a sticky, linear responding, etc, tire in 18 and more weight than a lighter weight lower grip tire and wheel package;)

The best tire for the STS class is going to be the RT-615 but for less money and should last a bit longer, better in the rain, etc, the Hankook 212's are almost as grippy but lack a bit of the finese of the RT's. We have them for rain tires and they are very impressive to say the least.

Rick

Your tires and wheels are the most important mod you can make, do not take them lightly! :):)

But, it would be better to have a sticky, linear responding, etc, tire in 18 and more weight than a lighter weight lower grip tire and wheel package;)

The best tire for the STS class is going to be the RT-615 but for less money and should last a bit longer, better in the rain, etc, the Hankook 212's are almost as grippy but lack a bit of the finese of the RT's. We have them for rain tires and they are very impressive to say the least.

Rick

true... i don't discount wheels and tires at ALL...
but i already had the 18's that are my summer use rims before i realized how addictied i was going to get to this sport last year :bow:

lol so i did get the best tire possible (the 615's) to help make up for my 18's :P

COOL then:):)

COOL then:):)

all this talk of auto-x is driving me insane!

can't wait till april 1st... need to get the car out and get this season started :nails: hehe

Yikes! RT-615 225/45/17______24.9 lbs. :doh: My Kumho's are around 23# and the fly weights are about 20#. Almost makes spending a grand on a set of RPF1's seem like a waste.

i'm not a good enough of a driver yet to make a difference for having 18's instead of 17's

i would consider myself somewhat of an aggressive driver.. but i still have a LOT of work to do to get more aggressive then i am at the moment.. especially on the auto-x forum... :eyebrow: :eyebrow: :eyebrow:

This line suggested that you wanted to be one of the guys:
"and maybe next year end up in STS instead of STSL :P "

So which is it? One of the ladies or one of the guys? Each has their own perks but you only get to be one or the other. I friggin hate double standards! :tap:

April 1st?! I don't think our first regional event is until May 7th or so... :( Lame.

i'm not a good enough of a driver yet to make a difference for having 18's instead of 17's

i would consider myself somewhat of an aggressive driver.. but i still have a LOT of work to do to get more aggressive then i am at the moment.. especially on the auto-x forum... :eyebrow: :eyebrow: :eyebrow:

This line suggested that you wanted to be one of the guys:
"and maybe next year end up in STS instead of STSL :P "

So which is it? One of the ladies or one of the guys? Each has their own perks but you only get to be one or the other. I friggin hate double standards! :tap:

lol... wowser..
currently as this will only be my second year auto-x'ing by car.. and second year driving manual... i am sticking with the ladies class as i would like to be competitive... even if it means with other ladies...

i would like eventually to eliminate my handy cap.. which is not being aggresive enough and run with the STS mens class .. i have some work to do to reach the level i want.. it's a slow gradual progression that i have a lot of fun while experiencing...

i'll never be "one of the guys" i don't need to be... i also don't know why your so bent out of shape by my running in a ladies class.. but thats ok...

April 1st?! I don't think our first regional event is until May 7th or so... :( Lame.

:( i thought april feels far!
sorry you gotta wait till MAY :doh:

The tC does alright in autocross. I've beat two of them in the box, one was a good driver the other novice. One fairly stock the other had some things with coilovers.

Honestly, you have to keep in mind you drive a 3,000lbs+ car with driver, its not the best handler out there. Rarely would you out handle a light weight car on the track unless they just didn't know what they were doing.

It doesn't completely suck, but its not that great either. At least, not what i've seen. Maybe with a great driver it would do better, but its still a lot of weight to pull around the tracks on a fwd car. If it was rwd, the weight wouldn't be an issue..well, not as much of an issue.

Killer, your comments are right to a degree but you have only covered a tiny bit of the reality of what makes a car fast car or not. You seem to have alot to learn buddy so I hope you can have an open mind and continue to mature.

Of course weight is always the enemy and the tC has a bit of it for certain and some in not the best places like the roof. It is also low and has a wide track and long wheelbase which is great for more open road situations, etc but the long wheel base is a bit of a handycap in autocrossing at times. Then again, it does help control weight transfer as the weight has less leverage on the chassis.

With a few mods the tC can become a very quick autocross car, ours is half done and already getting pretty quick. Though the gearing sucks for most things, 2nd gear is perfect for autocrossing and we have plenty of torque in that gear to really move the car nicely along, more so than it would appear looking at just the specs.

Though you beat a couple of tC's does not really say alot, what class they were in? What class you are in, what mods you or they have(except a vauge mention of coilovers)?

I will be posting some results in the next few months, once we start really getting our car dialed in, and you will see what proper modifications can do;)

Playing, do not let scolarbb bug you, obviously he has some sort of an issue going on, hopefully he will grow out of it in time.

I think ladies class is just fine and a great place to stay if you wish but I love seeing a woman driver kick a mans arse once in awhile, and no, I am not a womens libber, lol!

Rick




Your box is not the best autocross rig either, all that glass up high, not the best center of gravity on the planet now it is? ;)

i'm not a good enough of a driver yet to make a difference for having 18's instead of 17's

i would consider myself somewhat of an aggressive driver.. but i still have a LOT of work to do to get more aggressive then i am at the moment.. especially on the auto-x forum... :eyebrow: :eyebrow: :eyebrow:

This line suggested that you wanted to be one of the guys:
"and maybe next year end up in STS instead of STSL :P "

So which is it? One of the ladies or one of the guys? Each has their own perks but you only get to be one or the other. I friggin hate double standards! :tap:

lol... wowser..
currently as this will only be my second year auto-x'ing by car.. and second year driving manual... i am sticking with the ladies class as i would like to be competitive... even if it means with other ladies...

i would like eventually to eliminate my handy cap.. which is not being aggresive enough and run with the STS mens class .. i have some work to do to reach the level i want.. it's a slow gradual progression that i have a lot of fun while experiencing...

i'll never be "one of the guys" i don't need to be... i also don't know why your so bent out of shape by my running in a ladies class.. but thats ok...

I'm not bent in the least by you running in the ladies class-quite the opposite. My comments had to do with your comment about being more aggressive on the autox forum. Sounded like I was being scolded. My question was whether you wanted to be addressed as a lady or one of the guys? Which you have not answered by the way. Best of luck this year in competition-Give em hell! Or if you prefer- I hope you experience good fortune in competition this year.

And for the record raamaudio: if a lady where to school me I would come away being WOWED not ____ed. My view still stands that women and men should run in the same class as they do in drag racing. Which gives ladies the oppurtunity to be #1. However if autox ladies classes gets more women into racing all the better!

I think that SCCA Solo II is the ONLY motorsport santioning body that has separate ladies classes. (Am I right? Can anybody confirm?)

It was probably a good idea back in the day, but now it just seems archaic.

Women don't have to run in the Ladies class for solo II. In fact I think it is a tool to help make women that are new to the sport feel more relaxed when the are just getting in to Solo II.

My girlfriend is co-driving my tC for the 1st time this year and she doesn't want to run in the Ladies class and I'm sure not going to be the one to try and make her. :)

So some women will use the Ladies class and some won't, it's just another way for SCCA to bring new people to the sport.

Killer, your comments are right to a degree but you have only covered a tiny bit of the reality of what makes a car fast car or not. You seem to have alot to learn buddy so I hope you can have an open mind and continue to mature.

Of course weight is always the enemy and the tC has a bit of it for certain and some in not the best places like the roof. It is also low and has a wide track and long wheelbase which is great for more open road situations, etc but the long wheel base is a bit of a handycap in autocrossing at times. Then again, it does help control weight transfer as the weight has less leverage on the chassis.

With a few mods the tC can become a very quick autocross car, ours is half done and already getting pretty quick. Though the gearing sucks for most things, 2nd gear is perfect for autocrossing and we have plenty of torque in that gear to really move the car nicely along, more so than it would appear looking at just the specs.

Though you beat a couple of tC's does not really say alot, what class they were in? What class you are in, what mods you or they have(except a vauge mention of coilovers)?

I will be posting some results in the next few months, once we start really getting our car dialed in, and you will see what proper modifications can do;)

Playing, do not let scolarbb bug you, obviously he has some sort of an issue going on, hopefully he will grow out of it in time.

I think ladies class is just fine and a great place to stay if you wish but I love seeing a woman driver kick a mans arse once in awhile, and no, I am not a womens libber, lol!

Rick




Your box is not the best autocross rig either, all that glass up high, not the best center of gravity on the planet now it is? ;)

I don't know everything, but i know what the tC can do and not do. I kept my post simple for the fact most people on this thread are newbies to the sport. I didn't want to further complicate by going into to detail.

I'd love to see this "few mods make a fast autocross" car comment. What are you referring to? Because i've beat a tC with tein basics, i/h/e, clutch, and a few other things. I don't care how much power you have, the glory of autocross is you don't need 300whp to be fast. Infact, a tC with that much power would be horrible due to how majority of autocross events are set up. Regardless of how many mods you have, you haven't even focused on the real issue. The driver. With autocross, your car can be perfectly built for the track however driver error is more greatly envolved with times than anything else. This isn't 1/4, this isn't a good driver with ___ amount of mods and power could probably do __ time. You tell me to be open minded and i have a lot to learn, but you yourself appear to be in the boat you accuse me of. I appologize if i seem upset, i'm not. But i dislike greatly someone trying to judge my knowledge due to one basic post.

Back to topic. A tC with mods doesn't excuse common knowledge, heavy and fwd. Now, FWD can manage great times. I do it in my box, and did it with my old integra. However, neither weighed 3,000lbs+. Heavy and FWD doesn't not equal fast times, its almost impossible because even with LSD you are going to be breaking the tires to the point of falling on your face compared to other cars. Why do i say this? Because i've seen it over and over again. The only cars i have seen, that are almost or as heavy as the tC (sometimes slightly more) and pull off great times are AWD cars. RWD and that weight does much better than FWD, however they do slide around a great deal when pushing it hard around some turns. Not to say they cant manage, they can definitely correct and control it much better than fwd cars can.

Weight, power to weight, gearing, set up, driver are the most important things when it comes to what times the car and you can bring. Anyone that argues with that, well thats just ignorance to the sport.

I'm not saying the tC can't pull off good times, what i am saying is the car is no where near designed or able to pull off faster times than light weights. With good-to-great/experienced drivers, mini cooper-s, miata's, civic hatchbacks, xb, xa, civic coupes, del sol's, m3's, STi's, Evo's to name a few are cars that i've seen (or personally done with the box) pull off very hard to beat times. The disadvantage the box has, as well as the xa is unless you are boosted or have 120whp+, your time will suffer an incredible amount if theres long straight aways. That is something the tC can do well, but handling? The weight and drivetrain alone hurt it quite a bit.

Raam; you'd be surprised to know the xb's weight isn't focused up high. It's not top heavy, yeah i agree it does look like it would be. But its not. The tC has far more weight up top than the xb does.

No one is saying a tC will wipe the floor with every car in it's class. You're reading WAY too much into this thread.

People are discussing how to be competitive in the tC. What mods work well? What should someone spend their money on?

No one is saying they'll beat everyone b/c they have an intake and coilovers. Just relax a little... everyone.

No one is saying a tC will wipe the floor with every car in it's class. You're reading WAY too much into this thread.

People are discussing how to be competitive in the tC. What mods work well? What should someone spend their money on?

No one is saying they'll beat everyone b/c they have an intake and coilovers. Just relax a little... everyone.

No, i realize that. But like many threads, it will get to that point. Almost all the vs. threads are like that, so i figured i would go ahead and point everything out now while the thread is still ahead. I am relaxed, however, i did go on further in the just previous comments due to the fact i felt like raam was challenging what my knowledge leads. Point being, i went more into than i had to just to cover everything so i could show him i'm not someone thats brand new to the sport.

Killer,
Your comments did not sound like a seasoned autocrosser, you came onto a tC thread and talked the car down with very little to back it up. You should know by now one or two or even more cars seen has very little to do with how a car can really perform. You pointed out the driver factor since your first post, though one was better than the other, unless you road with them, drove the car yourself, you just did not have enough to stand on with your comments. If you want to make simple posts dissing a car many of us love and some of us have very indepth experince with then expect to get jumped on a bit, just the way it is. Your comments sounded like some newb video game, magazine fed with not alot of real experience, sorry if you did not mean it but that was the way it read.

The tC has some serious shortcomings but they can be overcome, our car is 200 lbs lighter than stock. It now has a far lower center of gravity with the 46 lbs we cut off the roof with our CF replacement(legal in our class), alot more weight removed with the 14.6 lb Racetech seats, air bags removed, every excess piece of wire, not needed harness connectors, etc, studs and brackets that could be lived without, battery was relocated to over the rear axle, like .125" from touching it.... We have hundreds of hours invested into our car and the main handicap will not be weight, it will be FWD. The really fast cars in our class all weigh alot more than ours ever will(with the exception of some Civics that I do not think should be in the class, they should be in SM2) Anyway, check out the times of the SM cars at your next event;)

As for our car, it has alot more time to invest to get it fully developed.

For now we just installed an LSD, our own eurathane motor mounts, clutch, flywheel, etc, etc, looking into building our own custom lower control arms or else just highly modding the stock ones.

The entire chassis is filled with structural eurathane foam, costly and insanely time consuming, the car is so stiff it picks up a wheel driving up a ramp at an angle(that is fine, ramps are not on the courses or streets;)

We have pillow ball mounted coilovers but are changing to ones with height adjustable seperately from spring preload as soon as we can. I am trying hard to get some dual adjustable units made but nobody is interested, sadly. We want dual adjustable for many reasons but primarily so we can tune the weight transfer into and out of corners.

Now we have a welded in chrome molly roll bar and will expand that into a 6 point cage, combined with the roof the car feels like it is allready fully caged and more.

We will have more power than we need but that is not a problem, just turn down the boost.

For tires we plan on the A series Hoosiers, costly and not long lasting but the stickest available.

Soon we will corner weigh the car, once all weight is relocated, etc. and go back to our drawings of the entire suspension geometry and do whatever it takes to get it as perfect as possible. Right now the roll center is 2" above the surface of the ground and the roll couple is tolerable but we want it even better, why we are going to mod the control arms extensively.

We have some work to do investigating the factory specs on anti dive and anti squat as well but it is deeply intertwined with the rest of the geometry and will be addresses accordingly.

All this is within the rules of our class.

I just wish we could run a CF hatch but we cannot, and I have tried to get pexi rear and side window made but the only company doing much in that is not investing into any more cars as not enough sales to warrant it:( But, I could not use them anyway but others in different racing could and I voluteered my car to work the molds from even though I would not get to use them.

One more thing then I will take a break, well two:)

1) the box is a really cool bugger, I know they can be fast but if you replaced most of the glass with pexi it would blow your mind, it is top heavy in that regard, I can tell by looking, pretty simple really. Has anybody here corner weighed their box and while on the scales jacked one side up, then the other, then front, then rear and calculated the true center of gravity? If you are really serious you need to do this so you can then use the data from your current ride height, control arm angles, etc, to get your roll center numbers and see how long your roll couple is. Most lowered cars have the geometry so screwed up that most the the weight is on two tires for most turns, even if the car does not lean, not the same thing;)
(I had all side and rear pexi windows on my 1,700 lb 510 Datsun back in 1974)


2) In 2003 I ran a turbo Matrix in SM class in So Cal and twice was within 1/100th from second place and the car was far from dialed in, had to much power and to aggressive front brakes and my tires where no where near as sticky as those that beat me and many of those I was faster than;) The tC is being taken to a much higher level of performance than we ever planned on the Matrix. I do not believe we can build it into a national champ caliber machine due to the long wheel base and weight but it will certainly surprise alot of suposedly faster cars, I promise you that:)

Bottom line, if you are going to come onto a tC thread and make comments that deride somebody elses choice in automobiles then expect to get a bit of flack, just the way it is buddy:):)

Rick

^
I'm just speaking truth. I'm not trying to make fun of the tC, i just spoke of two i actually raced against. I've seen a couple more, and i realize this doesn't include all tC drivers in terms of skill. However, the one with coilovers was better than most drivers i have seen with any car. No where near professional, but better than average. (not saying i'm professional)

As i've said before, the tC has potential to do well. But fact is, cornering is not a strong point. It sounds like you know what you are doing in terms of building a great road course/autocross car. But keep in mind, majority of cars and owners doing this will not go as far as you. So i'm speaking in general terms and conditions. I hope you understand, i don't want to fight with you or have some massive debate. I think we agree with each other, perhaps i just misunderstood you and vise versa. But don't think i'm a newbie at this, i just try to keep my post direct, to the point, hopefully helpful, and in words that everybody can understand. That way i can avoid as much confusion as possible.

I did get a bit long winded, upset, etc, not what I normally do at all buddy, if you met me in person you would understand, I have made very few enemies in my nearly 54 years:)

Believe me, if all I wanted to do was autocross and win, I would of bought an STI, EVO VIII or a used M3 and had alot less work to do and ended up faster, I knew this from the beggining.

I get far more satisfaction out of taking an uderdog, like the Matrix, and making a serious impression on those that just do not think it can be fast:):)

It did not even mention the kicker on this project and a huge amount of effort and expense is going into making this a reality, we are going to race with our world championship caliber audio sytem installed including sound deadening, because we can:):):)

As you know, weight is the enemy but if you have to have it, at least put it too good use and we are. With the audio system installed, turbo, roll cage, etc, we will still be more than 100 lbs lighter than stock with far better distribution and control over the total weight of the car.

WHY would we do this:) Because taking a super fast car and making it insanely fast is to easy, bored with that. We are in the audio business and most people ruin their cars with horribly heavy and bad sounding systems. We aim to show you can have real performance and an incredibly audio system at the same time;)

(Besides, as mentioned we do not think the car is capable of winning a nationaly championship no matter how much money or time is involved, why not take off a few tenths and have some fun in the lanes with a cool audio system and then shock a few with our times:):):):)

Besides that, we need to get published to warrant all the investment and we plan to do just that, without rice, without BS, with real performance in all areas.

Ok, you where speaking a fair amount of truth, the tC is not the best platform to choose if you are going to autocross, I agree completely. But, if you have one and decide to autocross, there are many things, alot of which cost little, some are free, that will make the car faster.

More importantly, encouraging even those with a totally stock car to autocross will help lift up the level of driver competence on our public roads, which is terrible, we need to encourage people to autocross, not tell them their car is not good for it;)

Rick

I do see your point. I'm sorry if i came accross as to shut the door on those with tC's that want to autocross. I was more or less trying to point out, if you do autocross, don't expect more than what is possible. I know an awfull lot of tC owners who believe their car can beat everything and anything. Which is a shame, its a nice car but people need to know the place of the tC when comparing it to other cars. It shows constantly on all these vs. threads. I suppose thats why i started off with the most negative because i'm tired of people putting down other cars, mostly honda's, to make the tC sound better.

Anyway, i do agree that you can use the weight to your advantage to an extent. But on FWD, its very hard to come ahead with that much weight. Its not impossible, but you really have to be a professional in the track environment to know how to use it to the advantage. Which, very few on these boards are professionals.

The best thing to do if anyone wants to start autocrossing. First go to a few events without pre-signing up. Don't run, just watch. Talk to other drivers, this is what i first did to get envolved with the sport. It's something that will totally benefit you due to the fact you can talk to newbies, and people that have been doing this for years. Secondly, learn your car. As corny as the saying is, you need to become one with your car. :rofl: It's true though, you need to learn what the car can do, and what it can't do. It is possible to cause major problems and costly damage to your car in autocross and road courses. Next you want to start preping your car, if you have a stock car thats fine. But investing in at least performance springs will definitely benefit you more than you could imagine. Not talking TRD or h-techs, for the tC s-techs are probably the best. You could go on further with frame braces, sways, and so forth. But, you don't need this stuff at first. After all, you need to take it a step at a time. When you do start autocrossing, don't get ahead of yourself. Don't start off by showing off. Could end up hurting yourself, the car, or others around you.

To me, thats a well pronounced, simple start to the sport. Once you start doing it more often, you really start to catch on to what the car can do. Automatics, manually shift. You rarely leave 3nd unless theres a straight away long enough, 1-3rd gears is really what you use, so the last thing you want is to have the trans constantly shifting. Poor times as a result, and a higher % chance of issues with the tranny later down the road. Honestly, 1-2 you use much more than 3rd. But all depends on how the track is laid out.

Thanks for the wisdom killerxromances.

So has everybody got it? Your tC is a POS! You should take it to the nearest junk yard and pay to have it destroyed! Then hitchhike to the nearest scion dealer and buy a "real performance machine! The XB! YEE-HAW!

The MAN(killer) HAS SPOKEN..........the rest is up to you

Thanks for the wisdom killerxromances.

So has everybody got it? Your tC is a POS! You should take it to the nearest junk yard and pay to have it destroyed! Then hitchhike to the nearest scion dealer and buy a "real performance machine! The XB! YEE-HAW!

The MAN(killer) HAS SPOKEN..........the rest is up to you

Also not what i said. All i said in reguards to the xb is the xb can out handle the tC. Also can pull better times in autocross providing theres not a long straight away. If that bothers you, then oh well. But i never said the xb was a real performance machine. Neither is the tC or xa. Which i also used other light weight cars to further explain this.

I think we should all relax now and take a breath, or is it the other way around:)

No Scion is a perfect autocross car, all have their faults but those same faults are what make them unique and fun cars, mostly;)

Since none of us bought our cars specifically for autocross(none I am aware of anyway) we just need to learn how to use what we have to the best of our abilities, in mods and our driving skills.

I agree autocrosses can have some what of a risk of damaging your car but far less than playing out on public roads at anywhere near the speeds(in tight corners, etc) than is even remotely safe out there. And you seldom risk hurting others and if you do they are there having signed a waiver knowing full well they are participating in a slightly dangerous event, not some innocent bystander getting hit by a very dangerous street racer.

You reminded me of something, back in the early 70's I attended my first autocross, just happend to be driving by, it really caught my attention so I came to the next one and watched as well. Then I got a rule book and studied it to see where my car fit in, made a few mods to comply, or be quicker as needed and started running.

I had a bit of advantage over most of todays drivers, I grew up in the country with snow, rain, gravel, dirt, twisty paved roads, etc and had a lot of practice before I ever entered an event.

I won 23 out of 25 events I ran that car in, one third place in my ex wifes wagon because my car was to far apart doing some mods to get it back together in time and a second place after working all night and driving 200 miles to an event, rushing to get registered, inspected and into line to run.

BUT, that does not mean I was the best driver in the world, I knew I was decent at best, I just prepared my car better than anyone else and practiced as much as I could.

I was then the PR guy for the club and had the keys to an old airstrip where we ran most of our events, it was big enough to hold road races on which we did as well. I burned up alot of tires there, dialing in the car and myself. Every single event I attended I had made at least one more improvement to the car and it was faster and faster and so were my competitors and I shared with them every single detail that worked, no fun winning by a mile, I usually won on the last pass in fact and barely!

At the last event I ran the car at we had a guy come out in an off the showroom floor Fiat X19 and he was very fast and smooth, he owned the dealership infact. I kept him busy while everone was leaving then snuck over and locked the gate and would not let him go until he drove my car(on the full road course) and let me know what he thought of it, which he was very impressed. BUT, he was a full two seconds faster than I had ever been on his first flying lap!!!

I had to really twist his arm to find our where he bacame so good, he was a prior SCCA Formula Ford National Champion, then I knew my true level as a driver and was ok with that.

Later that week we were putting together a deal to buy an incredibly well built 510 Datsun race car(it truely was better than the BRE cars, simply amazing construction) and I was going to a couple of schools to learm more skills then going on national tour as a paid driver and trainer, mechanic as well. The catch was his son was going to fly to all the events, except in the summer when he would ride along, and intern under me. After the first season, his son would become of age and be the driver, I was totally cool with that as knowing his father, I knew we would be wise to have him drive(he did gokart racing for years by the way;)

Unfortunately before the deal went through the car was raced one more time and totally destroyed in a very stupid "accident" caused by a vette driver that hated getting his butt kicked by a 510 Datsun, vette driver lost his license permanently over it.

Later on the young gun I was to work with earned national championships in FF and later numerous ones in what have become very sophisticated and fast D Sports Racers. He may not even know the story of how we would of worked together for a couple of years or more.

That was my one chance to go big time racing(big time to me!) never had another offer of anything near that but ok with it, just the offer was an honor to recieve.

OK, rambled on a bit but the real bottom line here is no matter what you drive, you can go out and in relative safety(very few autocross accidents occur) and learn to be a far better driver. You can become safer for yourself and others on the road and meet alot of really great people, most are that autocross:):)

Rick

^
Honestly, no car is designed for autcross. Even cars like the mini and STi for example, amazing handlers but always can use an improvement.

I didn't buy the box specifically for autocross, but i knew i was going to keep up the sport with my next car. Which is in part why i bought the box, light weight, saw potential, while it looked top heavy in reality it isn't and its paid off. Last year, and first year running in the box i finished first 6 of 8 events. Raam, you are far more experienced than i am so i could probably learn a few pointers from you. I'm not a professional, but i do consider myself better than average driver. For the fact i know how to control my car, i know its limits and how to use what i have to advance myself.

Once you master basics of your car, something also usful is when you do go to the track, study what others are doing. Study how their cars handle, when they brake, when they acclerate. This allows you to get a step up on the competition because you are in a sense pre-preparing for your runs. Another tool would be have someone record your runs. Study your own runs and see what the car needs or what it could do without. Study your actions and reactions. Always room to improve, and believe me, one slight, split second fault can cause your time to be slower. Its usually the little things added up that you need to improve on.

Ususally no one gets hurt in autocross, you are correct. But it can happen, and it does occasionally. People need to be reminded to use their better judgement on certain things because things can go wrong. Oh yeah, i've never been to a autocross event that didn't require people attending and drivers both signing waivers.

You have done very well with your car:) I will have to check one out more closely when I see one at an event this year, maybe I can drive one, would be fun:)

A video camera inside the car is a great learning tool as well. Things happen so fast autocrossing it is hard to be on top of it and learn from your mistakes, once you get fast that is, lol!

The best thing you can do is ask for an instructor ride, I had a few when I started running again in 2003 after not doing anyevents for a number of years. I learned alot about my driving and my car setup.

I have to agree on the little things, I have never made a perfect run in my life, close a few times, a few that had some segments that I was actually cheered for but still faulted during at least one part of the run or worse!

Two very key things that will help anyone become faster, one may be used less on the street, left foot braking. I have a heck of a time with it in a car but do it well right away in a go kart for some reason.

One thing you can practice on regularly, I do it all the time when safe to do so, threshold braking, maintain your speed as late as possible in a straight line, jump on the brakes just hard enough to not lock them up and then as you slow they will begin to grab so you have to match that with less pressure on the pedal. Most of your braking is done in a straight line over very short distances that way. This enables you to carry more speed more often, when coupled with proper corner entry and exit speeds and position for the next turn(s) can dramtically improve your times.

This is a rather difficult skill to learn for most of us and in a turbo car, with just enough throttle, you can keep the turbo spooled up, releasing the brakes as you start accerating, helps control wheel spin to better utilize your power potential. It prevents a sudden spike in power that can break traction and that is not good, then you just start drifting off line or have back out of the throttle, turbo cars are difficult to balance sometimes but sure fun learning!

Then their is ABS, once we get our car further dialed in I will focus on wether or not to keep it, it has failed my in two runs so far but that was with a BBK with pistons to large allowing to much fluid flow and tripped up the ABS. It went into four wheel antilook but not correctly, barely slowed at all and blew right by a tight turn before I could react. I have since replaced the calipers with a better piston size but have not had th4e chance to run an event yet, seems fine on the street but then again, I seldom want to be diving into corners that deeply and have to where to go it if acts up so I do not do so. I will wait for the proper place to do my testing.

Now it is time to back to work on our turbo manifold:)

Rick

^
All i can say is...agree'd! :clap:

"Unfortunately before the deal went through the car was raced one more time and totally destroyed in a very stupid "accident" caused by a vette driver that hated getting his butt kicked by a 510 Datsun, vette driver lost his license permanently over it."

Did the guy actually ram the car?

If I were getting my but kicked by something with 1/3 of the motor I had, i'd probably want to ram them too. Fortunately I don't know of any fast 0.8 liter cars.


killerx: I've read that slamming a car with coilovers can actually decrease cornering potential. Something about lowering the center of gravity too much and the car tries to corner on two wheels instead of four. That guy with the tc may have actually hurt his lap times with his mods.

Everything im reading/hearing/learning indicates that optimum suspension settings are a precisely balanced thing that has many contributing factors.

wow, os glad i found this thread, been wanting to try auto-xing the box for a little while now
didnt have time to read the whole thing so
does anyon know of any events comming up in the NY, NJ area any time soon?

scolarbb,
I posted about this a couple of times. Most cars when lowered alot end up with severly compromised suspension alignment, worst being the roll center, a point at which the car rolls in a turn.
When the control arms are not lowered in relationship to the drop of the car the roll center drops to a greater degree than the center of gravity. The resulting roll couple, distance from the center of gravity to the roll center increases which puts more leverage on the outside tires, sway bars do not fix this problem, they can actually make it worse to a degree as well.

So, FWD, outside front tire gets loaded with a huge amount of the cars weight and it is trying to stop, turn and accelerate and do most of the work of all the tires, the outside rear has it relatively easy so just goes along while the front tire is screaming for mercy and you are not usually heading in the direction you intend, understeer is increased dramatically.

When we had our car lowered to approx even with the tops of the tires/fender openings, maybe 1/4" clearance, we autocrossed and the car just did not feel right. We measure the roll center and it was on the ground!

Optimum is between around 2.5 to 5" above the ground depending on the car. We raised the car around 1/2" and the roll center raised right around 2" and the car handled far better, much more competitive times the next event out.

This can be cured without raising the car, if you want to modify all the pickup points for the control arms and or modify the ends of them as well, cut and welding, long shaft ball joints installed, etc. OR, as we would love to have, billet steering knuckes, know anybody what would make us some for cheap??? LOL, I wish!

Take a stock tC, install some very good tires and light wheels.

Take a fairly moded one(suspension wise) with a severe drop without modified control arms or pickup points, with the same driver the stock one just may be faster. Add at least a rear sway bar to the stock one, it will probably be alot quicker then.

This is a basic lesson guys, I have been doing this stuff for a very long time and continue to learn and feel like I am just a newb sometimes and I am an old dude now. I wish I knew what I now know back in my younger days and had the budget I do now. I have to rely on experience to go fast and sometimes my reflexes have a hard time keeping up!!!

Rick

So which wheels are choice? I like the Enkei RPF1's the best now. Reasonable price, supposedly tough, and pretty light. I've just recently coming into the available funds stage of life and $1000 wheels/$1000 dampers still kindof feel like throwing money away. Are there any good $100-$150 light weight wheels or are RPF1's the best entry level wheel?

I honestly feel the RPF1's are far better than an entry level wheel, very durable via personal experience, very stiff so do not flex(all wheels flex a bit).

I ran a set for 10k miles that was either on the way to or autocrossing or canyon running on 235/40/17 Kumho Excta V700 R compound tires. When a car is setup stiff, driven hard, on sticky tires, the wheels get a very hard workout and all wheels fatigue over time.

On the very rare occasion I do something stupid in a car I was woke up at 4AM by a mutual buddy that was in town for a visit with our other friend. They were on the way to the airport and he had been wanting a ride in the car but was to busy the whole time visiting. Ok, I get up, was up until 2AM working on the some mod or other, jumped in the car with him and headed down the road to a little off the beaten path one of the best corners I have ever seen, 3 linked corners, tight left, dive down a short steep hill, highly banked right hander the up a hill and a moderate left where you could really fly. It was my most favorite short demo ride road ever!

Anyway, I am half asleep, went bombing into the turn at the bottom of the hill, forgetting it was 4AM, near the ocean, a bit damp out, there was some sand on the road and he weighed 325 lbs, ooooppppppssssss.

We were heading sideways at a bit tree at 60+MPH, the corner is posted 25(really) and I had about 1,000,0000th of a second to react. I choose to keep my foot in it and go off roading, up over an angled asphalt curb, we launched a bit into the air, landed in a feild, I just keep the hammer down and drove out of it, best thing to do if you know how.

By the time we were back on the pavement the car was feeling just fine, I slowed, pulled over, no discernable damage in the dark. Limped home, he let out a big hollar about how much fun that was, lol!

Went to bed, in the morning I went about surveying for damage. The steel and the alumuinum plates for the pillow ball mounts on the passenger front strut were bent but repairable. One wheel had a slight bent out bead, three layer of masking tape, 8lb dead blow hammer and soft block of wood, let the air out, no more ding in the rim and not even visable.

That was it, no other damage, I checked the entire frame for alignment, then the suspension alignment, etc, etc, that was it, no cost, easy to fix.

I already knew I really liked the wheels, besides they have the same spoke pattern as their real Formula 1 wheels, and they have proven to be dang tough. That same set has been on another car for 2 years, autocrossed, track days, alot of street miles, still working just fine:)

There are some decent low weight wheels available but I do not know how they compare. I am sticking with the RPF1, have a sweet spot in my heart for them, have them on our car for the street/rain tires and will have another set soon for slicks:)

Rick

They come recommended by several people as do the falken rt-615's. I plan to call hankook this week to get some exact tire weights on the 212 line. 16" hankooks are probably going to be lighter than falken 17's. Bet I end up with 17's tho. Still not sure on tires; 615's don't sound like very good daily drivers. I hit triple digits alot sometimes even on wet roads like this morn. (and to all the drama queens :loser: :no one else was around when I did it)

You may very well want the 212's then, I am more than happy with them on our car. In one tire test they came out rated as grippy as the 614's but less accurate on turn in , which I think I can agree with but still dang fine tires.

Rick

Hankook R-S2 Z212

225/45/16 21.7lbs 23.9diameter
225/50/16 23.9lbs 24.9diameter
225/45/17 23.6lbs 25.0diameter

245/45/16 24.6lbs 24.6diameter
245/40/17 24.7lbs 24.7diameter

What kind of mileage are 212's capable of ? I still feel BFG KDW's may be a better choice for the other 355-360 days of the year.

you guys got so lucky being in Hstock

Since ours is not a daily driver, not even sure how we got 6k miles in a year as seldom as it runs or we take it anywhere so milage is not a concern in our case.

We went with 235/40/17 for the best fit on the 8" wide wheels, great shoulder support, better response, if I remember lower weight, more tread width, whatever we figured out at the time. Maybe gear lower by a bit but ok with that as well.

Today I picked up a set of scuffed Hoosier AS303 in 245/40/17, man they are WIDE!!!! They were taken for two laps around a course, baged and stored in a the right temp for 24 hours then have sat for 2 years. A bit hardened now sadly but for $100!!!!!!! I am now going to search high and low for tire treatments to see if any can soften them back up a bit. At the very least this gives us something to test fit, tweak and tune on a bit, maybe they would hold up for a track day, etc. Considereing new they are over $200 a tire, can't go wrong!!

It was Christmas only better today, UPS brought us some cool goodies, full exhast and S pipe, gauges, catch tank, quick release hub, FPR from our newest sponsor, Megan Racing and I tell you guys, all this stuff is dang well built, the guages are especially fine, now to fit 5 guages and look clean!

Rick, I have to admit I follow all your threads. There aren't many (any) other racecar builds on this forum, especially that concentrate on suspension and suspension tech. Sadly most people on this forum either concentrate on the visual appeal for their car or blindly follow the standard upgrade path wihtout realizing the why's and wherefor's to actaully making everything work well together.

Thanks for the constant updates and advice. When are you gonna start a blog?!

good luck with those tires.. they're at least 2 years old :) hope you can bring them back to life! i had a set of 1 yr old hoosiers and never really brought them back around. i'm currently using Toyo RA-1's.. like they say, they suck.. but they suck for a loooong time :) durability counts when you're racing on a budget.

good luck with those tires.. they're at least 2 years old :) hope you can bring them back to life! i had a set of 1 yr old hoosiers and never really brought them back around. i'm currently using Toyo RA-1's.. like they say, they suck.. but they suck for a loooong time :) durability counts when you're racing on a budget.

Two very key things that will help anyone become faster, one may be used less on the street, left foot braking. I have a heck of a time with it in a car but do it well right away in a go kart for some reason.

Have you seen the last two F1 races? The announcers noticed that M. Schumacher and Massa both used left foot braking, but Alanso never used the throttle and brake together. I guess it's all car setup and personal preference.

I, too, have tried LFB but never got the hang of it--I do just fine without it. The best way to learn is in the snow. It makes a HUGE difference. Years ago I was out driving my Mazda 323 around the neighborhood after a snowstorm, and I just couldn't get the car to turn. Then I remembered LFB and tried it. It handled like it was dry pavement.

What about ABS? Is it an advantage or disadvantage in autocross or road racing?

in my opinion, ABS is very much an advantage at autoX, as the surfaces are generally flat, and current ABS includes brake distribution etc. which pretty much does away with dangerous "no braking" under extreme cornering loads with older ABS systems. i would say with current ABS, it is definitely a large factor in a lot of my good times for a day, because i can late brake much more aggressively, knowing i wont lock up the front end and lose steering..

as far as left foot braking, i have done a little, but i've found, to plant an inside front tire during hard cornering, a bit of ebrake (not enough to lock the rear) tends to pull the inside tire back to the ground. it does slow you down, yes, but it also keeps the car more level. this may be different on your suspension setup, but the xA/B has trailing arm, so the rear actually squats with ebrake application.

in my opinion, ABS is very much an advantage at autoX, as the surfaces are generally flat, and current ABS includes brake distribution etc. which pretty much does away with dangerous "no braking" under extreme cornering loads with older ABS systems. i would say with current ABS, it is definitely a large factor in a lot of my good times for a day, because i can late brake much more aggressively, knowing i wont lock up the front end and lose steering..


Yeah, I've heard the argument before, but the bottom line is that you really can't beat a good ABS system. There are those purists out there that claim that disengaging ABS gives them more control and whatnot. I can see the argument, as poor ABS systems can work unpredictably or make a distracting "pedal pulsing". But the fact of the matter is, a good ABS system is superior. ABS allows the maximum amount of braking force to be applied without allowing the tires to skid, thus leaving the vehicle in full control of the driver.

^
Actually, i've seen countless times at events non-abs cars will destroy a well pronouned abs car. Part is driver, but two of the drivers specifically were very close to knowledge and experience. It depends on what you know in terms of how to control a non-abs car. Its hardler than a good abs system, i agree. But its not impossible to assume a non-abs car is worse for the track environment.

There are pros and cons to everything and then different levels of performance a car is being taken to and different levels of driver performance. There is no such simple answer as one is better than the other, far to many variables.

In our particular case, the car is mainly for autocross and longer track type events, street time will mostly be just going to events and back. We will have all out sticky tires, major upgrades far beyond just bolt ons for all performance aspects and I have a fair amount of experience in pretty fast autocrossing, etc.

But, I want to do what is best so I am asking real experts, like the Bilstein Engineer I know that has won many national titles in autocrossing and in very fast cars and not so fast cars. He is one of the best drivers I have ever watched.

After I let him know what we are doing, he advised removing the ABS, said it would be a major hinderance to our particular situation.

I am still asking a few more though, this is a major step but one I could reverse easily and was going to run a few more times before taking it out but now it seems I am just going to do it and be done with it:)

For most drivers in most situations it may be best to keep it, in our case, it is looking like it should be removed.

Almost forgot, I asked another several time national champ autocrosser that has ran quite a few rallies and hillclimbs and he said to take it out as well.

These are not general knowledge people, these are real experts with real world experience;)

Rick

Personally, i say remove the abs if only you think you could feel comfortable enough to handle the car to potential without it. There is no simple answer, but thats the thing that i like. Simple gets old.

Agreed and this is the only ABS car I have ever owned, I will have 38 years of driving experience on my Birthday in May and ALOT of it having fun, too much once in awhile though, lol!

Agreed again, we could of hired somebody to build our turbo kit and I did not want a log manifold. We are in the middle of building a nearly(will give up just a bit of perfect lenght to have better asthetics if required) with firing order sequence(becuase it is interesting to think about and figure out) very difficult manifold.

And we are not using an external wastegate because I do not believe they offer enough benifit to hassle ratio, add more weight, more bling we do not really need, etc.

I chose the EVO III GT for the great performance it has proven, compact size, good wastegate design, low cost, etc.

It is about priorities, doing things your own way, research, implementation, testing, making changes, the challenge of going your own way, this to me is what modding a car is all about, not just buying what everone else buys, doing what everyone else does, etc:):)

Rick

Agreed and this is the only ABS car I have ever owned, I will have 38 years of driving experience on my Birthday in May and ALOT of it having fun, too much once in awhile though, lol!

Agreed again, we could of hired somebody to build our turbo kit and I did not want a log manifold. We are in the middle of building a nearly(will give up just a bit of perfect lenght to have better asthetics if required) with firing order sequence(becuase it is interesting to think about and figure out) very difficult manifold.

And we are not using an external wastegate because I do not believe they offer enough benifit to hassle ratio, add more weight, more bling we do not really need, etc.

I chose the EVO III GT for the great performance it has proven, compact size, good wastegate design, low cost, etc.

It is about priorities, doing things your own way, research, implementation, testing, making changes, the challenge of going your own way, this to me is what modding a car is all about, not just buying what everone else buys, doing what everyone else does, etc:):)

Rick

Given your background, i would strongly suggest throwing abs out the window. I've owned one abs and one non abs. So with that little experience of both i can't really say which i perfer. I do know the xb has done well and i don't believe relying on abs is the reason.

I agree that doing things your own way is much more rewarding. Not to say buying popular parts can't help, i mean majority of parts i have on the box currently others have. But thats not why i bought them, i bought them because i trusted them to get me where i was going..and previous experiences with that company. I have a basic set up, i'm at a dead point right now because the rest of my plans will have to be either custom, or just highly expensive.

Don't do something because someone else does and works for them, do what works for you because in the end its your car and you have to live with that.

Alright, I have to ask. This is for killerxromances, and I suppose raamaudio as well.

How are you determining where the center of gravity of your vehicles are? I know the distance between roll center and COG is important, and I know that it is fairly easy to determine where the COG lay on a horizontal plane (eg crossweighting etc.) but it seems very difficult or impossible to determine how high the COG actually lay (ie. where the COG is on the vertical plane.)

killerxromances, you've pretty much stated as fact that the xB isn't "top heavy". Are you saying this based on the fact that it doesn't tip over? or do you have some kind of measurement technique I'm not privvy to? I know many suv's are topheavy and the manufacturer purposfully reduces their cornering ability so they don't tip. At least they did before that explorer fiasco.

Rick, you stated here (or elswhere, I've been reading alot of your threads) that you've lowered the center of gravity of your vehicle. Are you saying this based on the fact that you've removed the glass roof (weight up high), but you don't know exactally where the COG is (on the vertical plane anyways.)

I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm just curious if you guys know some method for determining the hight of COG that I don't know.

Well first of all, the xb isn't top heavy because..well, its not. The only major weight thats remote to the top is the glass, which every car the glass is in the same place. The only difference with the xb and say a civic, is the fact the xb looks like a box so people assume that makes all the difference. Not to mention the head room is more than the average car.

I'm not saying the top isn't heavy, but its no more heavy than the average car. The tC, is obviously top heavy because there is a ton of weight in glass alone with the tC. Its pretty much common sense, you don't have to be a genious in math to figure this out.

Also, truly top heavy cars are prone to roll over. I'm not sure which suv's you are talking about that can handle well without rolling over, but the xb isn't even a suv. It's more of a 4door hatch or mini-wagon than a suv. The replacement on the other hand, is more of a suv/crap. Sorry, off topic. :rofl:

As for COG, i think raam could explain that better than i could. I'm not the best at explaining things like this. Although, i will admit, i can't pin point down to the very last .000000 of COG. Infact, you may know as much as me about measuring it.

Here's a simple yet difficult way to deterine the COG:

Staticly balance the car on two wheels--left side or right side (that's the hard part)

The COG will be directly over the point where the wheels touch the ground! :P

Seriously, there may be an easy way with scales by parking the car (and scales) on an angle and recording the difference in weight left to right in relation to the angle. The steeper the angle, the more accurate the calculation.

(Sorry about that: I have a degree in physics and sometimes I can't help myself.)

Of course, you'll have to balance it along 3 different axes to find the actual point of COG, but the plane of bilateral symmetry will be a close approximation for one of those 3, and the front to rear weight bias may offer insight into a second.

Fmod, good ideas buddy, there is a more precise way but:

Damm, I just lost a great(at least to me:) writeup about getting the true center of gravity.

I am to worn out to rewrite it and my son is waiting to watch a movie I promised to watch with him.

After that I have a bunch more business emails before I can hit the sack so will see about writing it over tomorrow:)

Rick

According to SCC, COG is usually around crankshaft height in front and at floor level in back. To calculate actual you have to jack the car up while on corner scales and then plug results into a formula.

Yep, what I was going to say as well, we are just waiting to have all the weight located properly in the car first. And my big arse has to be in there as well, maybe I should stop drinking great micro brews and lose 20 lbs first though, lol!

Rick

According to SCC, COG is usually around crankshaft height in front and at floor level in back. To calculate actual you have to jack the car up while on corner scales and then plug results into a formula.

The answer I was looking for, thanks!

FModFTD: there are some great articles I have bookmarked written by a physics guy about car dynamics. I'll have to dig em up for you, I think you'd appreciate all the math. :)

killerxromances, it sounds to me like you are guessing about the dynamics on the xB more than anything. My last ride was a wrx, and the wagons had very different handling charactistics than the sedan I had. I think you may be underestimating the effect of alot of the subtle differences between the xB and the tC, other than the sunroof. The B is a completely different beast even when excluding the shape of the body. Take the hight of the seats for example. The location of the motor. Obviously the b isn't "top heavy" but I think the COG may sit higher than you think. I'd love to share and auto-x course sometime. :)

All you physics guys: Which is more important the hight of the COG or the difference in height between the COG and the roll-center?

Thanks for the well-spoken responses.

who cares about the car's center of gravity? get coilovers, a good corner balance, and you're good to go.

According to SCC, COG is usually around crankshaft height in front and at floor level in back. To calculate actual you have to jack the car up while on corner scales and then plug results into a formula.

The answer I was looking for, thanks!

FModFTD: there are some great articles I have bookmarked written by a physics guy about car dynamics. I'll have to dig em up for you, I think you'd appreciate all the math. :)

killerxromances, it sounds to me like you are guessing about the dynamics on the xB more than anything. My last ride was a wrx, and the wagons had very different handling charactistics than the sedan I had. I think you may be underestimating the effect of alot of the subtle differences between the xB and the tC, other than the sunroof. The B is a completely different beast even when excluding the shape of the body. Take the hight of the seats for example. The location of the motor. Obviously the b isn't "top heavy" but I think the COG may sit higher than you think. I'd love to share and auto-x course sometime. :)

All you physics guys: Which is more important the hight of the COG or the difference in height between the COG and the roll-center?

Thanks for the well-spoken responses.

All I can tell you is where to find it. Sport Compact Car August 2005 I never knew when I received it-that this "over the top" suspension info might actually come in handy. I'm still a noob tho-just beginning to understand this stuff. Highly detailed-way more than just throw on a set of coilovers. Here's their part 1 article:
http://sportcompactcarweb.com/tech/0506scc_suspension/
I'm not sure why the rest is unavailable.
THANKS FOR THE SUPPORT! Its highly insulting hearing a kid in a box talking the tc down. I would argue with em if I had any facts to argue with. Although his "facts" really don't prove anything-He's probably just a more talented driver with a better setup than the tc's he has raced.

All I can tell you is where to find it. Sport Compact Car August 2005 I never knew when I received it-that this "over the top" suspension info might actually come in handy. I'm still a noob tho-just beginning to understand this stuff. Highly detailed-way more than just throw on a set of coilovers. Here's their part 1 article:
http://sportcompactcarweb.com/tech/0506scc_suspension/
I'm not sure why the rest is unavailable.
THANKS FOR THE SUPPORT! Its highly insulting hearing a kid in a box talking the tc down. I would argue with em if I had any facts to argue with. Although his "facts" really don't prove anything-He's probably just a more talented driver with a better setup than the tc's he has raced.

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of this series of articles. http://www.dewtronics.com/tutorials/phor/index.html but thanks for the link. :)

Its highly insulting hearing a kid in a box talking the tc down. I would argue with em if I had any facts to argue with. Although his "facts" really don't prove anything-He's probably just a more talented driver with a better setup than the tc's he has raced.

all i know is.. my FSP prepared xA with no engine work whatsoever walks all over STS prepped (and even the supercharged SM) tC's...

the car pushes like woman in labor. . . then again, get a competent person behind the wheel, with proper suspension setup (i.e. race tires, camber, rear swaybar) and maybe the tC can hang..

then again, my car beats vipers and porsches with mediocre drivers..

In stock classes, you can do some limited changes as outlined in a post above. In street prepared, you can use any intake and exhaust system, but you can't touch the engine internals.

go read some more dude. you can do quite a bit.. you can bore over for one.. but no cam..

clutch and flywheel are legal..
engine management (including upped boost if you have a turbo/sc car) are now legal

Before you guys start dismissing what i'm saying. Because i don't determine the exact COG of the box doesn't mean i don't know its not top heavy, regardless of the roof. Also, one of the tC's set ups was far more envolved than mine and i still beat him a total of about 3.xx minutes overall times.

Let's stop looking at what i drive, to be good at autocross, majority of skill. Thats obvious, but with skill comes with learning how to act when the car reacts, controlling your car and so on. It sounds to me some of you are almost starting to try and disprove what i'm saying simily because i drive a box and my COG statement. And all i said about it was i'd let raam go on about it because i'm not a very good in dept explainer with things along the lines of this..and still keeping it user friendly.

I get too much crap on some of the threads for nothing. :tap:

I get too much crap on some of the threads for nothing. :tap:

probably because your entire post had not one complete sentence in it?

:clap:

but honestly, look at the HP/weight differences of the xB and the tC.. that alone should tell you how badly the tC sucks :D

If weight is almost everything in autox then the tc should'nt be compared or be competing with xa's or xb's anyway. :no: Maybe i'll go get a shifter cart and race xa's and xb's. :ponder:

If weight is almost everything in autox then the tc should'nt be compared or be competing with xa's or xb's anyway. :no: Maybe i'll go get a shifter cart and race xa's and xb's. :ponder:

life isn't fair.. if the tC guys dont like being in Hstock (which by the way is BOTTOM OF THE BARREL STOCK CLASS) then they can go back to Gstock where they honestly belong...

which means you're up against John Cooper Works MINI's :D hahahaha

here's the egg last year up in Ft Pierce FL.. street tires..
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4939790056387394586&q=tamago

So the "real" question is: Is the tc really unfit to be competitive due to poor balance and weight OR is it just that no one has set one up right yet?

Keep in mind
A: most people here are interested in street touring or street modified
B: tc coilovers with seperate height and spring rate settings are just now be developed/released

I'll really be disgusted with my ride if I spend a couple thousand dollars to set it up to race then have my @$$ handed to me by inferior drivers in superior cars. I decided to try autox in the first place because it supposedly tests driver skill not car prowess. Tc should be competing against similar weight/displacement vehicles like the mazda3/focus.

trust me, inferior drivers are the least of your worries.. superior drivers in inferior cars will be your biggest worry.

dude, you can't get any lower than Hstock.. and FSP is a faster class than STS (look up times from last years national events.. ) you dont want to be in FSP.. you'll get beat buy MKI rabbits, ITC legal 510's and even Focus's.

Actually superior drivers are the least of my worries...lack of autox experience is a handicap that can be overcome in time. An incapable car is a handicap that cannot be overcome. I "think" STS is the best place for a tc because it allows suspension mods that a tc severly needs without allowing extensive engine work(tc already has a nice strong torque curve). If your comparing a fully race tuned xa with a incompetently tuned tc then your comparison is invalid. :no: If you have some facts that prove your position then i'd really like to see them. :come: Otherwise your just spewing a bunch of hot air. :blah: A couple of you have come on here bashing the tc. Your points may be valid. If they are-give some proof. Saying some local dipsh!t that can't drive to start with and has a poorly tuned tc is way slower than you proves nothing. I could beat a formula car in my tc if the driver were incompetent enough. Does that mean a tc is faster than a formula? Hell no. It proves nothing. Fact=proof not personal opinion. As far as I know you tc bashers don't know your @$$ from a whole in the ground. Trust you:Yeah right! If you can't back it up it must be B.S.

I get too much crap on some of the threads for nothing. :tap:

No way. You get just enough!

Actually superior drivers are the least of my worries...
Tomago is right though scholar. (IMO). By the time you are a good enough driver that the tC is whats holding you back, you will be in a position to get another car. The tC is a good car, and a fine car to learn on. It should not be considered "uncompetetive" but its definitely not the class dominator.

neither is the xA/B the class dominator. in Hstock, your main worry is most likely an older honda civic SI.

scholarbb, you're so hung up on people calling the tC "crappy" that you think i'm saying the same thing, which i'm not. driver skill accounts for a very very large part in autocross. how else would you explain a STOCK subaru STI (an ASTOCK car btw) posting FTD (fastest time of the day) against beasts such as fully built, race prepped Camaros, insanely fast Z06's, and AWD 500HP Audi S4s? ... the driver is the key.

there are three things that make you fast in any race.

seat time

seat time

SEAT TIME.

good luck with the tC, you'll enjoy the car, no matter how badly you suck at first. just feel lucky that you got classed in HSTOCK and not Gstock, cuz you'll NEVER see a trophy there

AIGHT i'll take that. :rofl: Forgive me if I have a hard time believing that I suck as a driver though. But if it makes yall feel better go on and believe.

Okay, this will probably be my last post since i'm leaving the community...

I never said the tC was a crappy car, what i said was the tC isn't ideal for autocross..Obviously it can be, look at what raam is doing but the average buyer, even beyond that is not going to put that much time in effort into their tC and make it a pretty much full blown track car thats still driveable and showable.

I also never said the xb/xa were cars that could just kill anything on the track, obviously there are a good amount of cars we can't beat. But its much more ideal than the tC on a stock platform without doing major modifications.

I get just enough crap? Okay, you don't like what i have to say about the tC fine, but that is just what i have gathered from personal experience and others experiences, combine that with my knowledge of the car i'm not going to say sorry for not pleasing you or anyone else. But i don't think that should justify giving me crap either just because of what i drive and i don't personally own ___ car. Tons of people on here make fun of cars on here all the time, but when it comes down to criticize their own car it gets personal.

Also, when have i ever said the tC was crappy? It's obvious it can become a drag queen, i give it respect and support when i feel support is due.

Think i'm hating the tC all you want, if thats the case then you are reading into what i'm saying wrong. I'm done. Have fun and stay safe.

If i have s-techs along w/ 18's would that be bad to try and get into autox

If i have s-techs along w/ 18's would that be bad to try and get into autox

aside from the 18's i'd say you're OK.. 18's will be pretty scary in the cones.

Hows that? What can happen? sorry im new to this

no, glad you asked..

the problem with plus sizing wheels is that you end up with shorter sidewalls.. most people think this is a good thing, and in some cases it is, however, in my opinion, once you pass the 50series tire, your sidewall flex is pretty much minimal, so the shorter it is, the closer to the ground your beautiful 18's are, and more likely you'll roll a tire off the rim. may not be a problem, but on bumpy/hilly terrain, i've seen some very nice wheels ruined.

:nails:

The solution to that is to bump up the tire pressure for the day. Most novices haven't had a high camber alignment so their wheels are going totally positive in corners which not only totally ruins the size of your contact patch and causes all your grip to go away, but also increases the sidewall rollover in the process. Put 40-45 psi in the tires before your runs and your sidewalls will stay intact with ease. Remember to put the pressure back to normal at the end of the day though :)

If you come back for more, you'll want to play with your tire pressures to find out what the tire likes for best performance. Also if you want to come back for more, you'll want a new alignment. The factory specs are designed for long tire life and understeer from hell. Cranking a couple of extra degrees of negative camber into the front and rear will make a world of difference in lateral traction - and reduce the risk of sidewall rollover at the same time.

in addition to what GrantR said...

to reduce understeer, only add camber to the front...

scholarbb, you're so hung up on people calling the tC "crappy" that you think i'm saying the same thing, which i'm not. driver skill accounts for a very very large part in autocross. how else would you explain a STOCK subaru STI (an ASTOCK car btw) posting FTD (fastest time of the day) against beasts such as fully built, race prepped Camaros, insanely fast Z06's, and AWD 500HP Audi S4s? ... the driver is the key.

there are three things that make you fast in any race.

seat time, seat time, SEAT TIME.

good luck with the tC, you'll enjoy the car, no matter how badly you suck at first. just feel lucky that you got classed in HSTOCK and not Gstock, cuz you'll NEVER see a trophy there
Ok everybody, let's play nice.

I remember in the early '90s I autocrossed my stock Mazda B2000 pickup, because that's all I had and I loved to race. I never won my class, but it was nice to occasionally beat Joe Novice in his Porsche.

Not many people can afford to have a dedicated autocross car, and I feel lucky now that I can. But I spent 10 years autocrossing inferior cars until I could by a new Neon ACR. And once you get a competitive car and some other drivers who are equal to you, THAT's when you really get a chance to step up your game.

Seat time makes you faster, but competition is also necessary. You can have the best car in your class and be a good driver, but if there are no other drivers in your class at your level or higher, you will never get better.

That's where autocross schools can help too. Here in the Wash. DC area, we have dozens of schools each year, at level 1, 2 or 3. They are taught by nationally competitive drivers, give you 20 or more runs in the day, and are the best way to quickly improve your skills.

Okay, this will probably be my last post since i'm leaving the community...

Finally.

.

Seat time makes you faster, but competition is also necessary. You can have the best car in your class and be a good driver, but if there are no other drivers in your class at your level or higher, you will never get better..

thats why you start paying attention to your PAX time..

since i started autoxing, i've gone from a below mid-pack PAX time to in the top 50 (events with 160-200 cars)

so even if i'm not winning my class, i know i'm improving .

Yeah, but there's nothing like the pressure and excitement of doing a good run, then having your competitor do 0.1 faster, then you do 0.1 faster, and back and forth. It's that immediate competition that motiivates you to get better. (And that's the fun part too!)

My car (not the xA) is FINALLY all back together and ready to race tomorrow.

Let the autocross season BEGIN! :clap: