I don't know if it's against the rules to introduce myself (I looked through the rules but couldn't find anything), but I hope it's ok!

I'm an engineer for AC Propulsion (ACP). As you may know, ACP makes electric conversions of xB's that we rename the "eBox". If you're curious for more info, the eBox website is here:

http://www.acpropulsion.com/ebox/

I'm not here to advertise our business (that's against the rules anyway), but this place looks like a good resource of info and I'd like to join in!

And if any of you are in the area of San Dimas, CA, you're always welcome to visit us for a tour. I can show you all of the insides of the xB as you've probably never seen before. :P

Thanks for stopping in!

< big fan of your work.

welcome....glad you can join us!!

jake

how much juice does the ebox have compared to the regular box? I was thinking about gettting the prius, but it's ugly. It needs to be really ugly for me to get it like my box. lol.

I'll take u up on the tour offer the next time I'm down south! :)

"San Dimas High School football rules!"

Sorry couldn't resist.

The eBox is awesome man. I remember someone posting on it here a while ago and I looked into it. Great job you guys are doing.

Thanks for the warm welcome! I know that there are many fans and critics of our electric cars; we do after all keep up with all the talk on the forums. It's definitely clear that a $70k electric Scion xB isn't everyone's cup of tea, but we're not out here to please everyone. We just want to take a step in the right direction, to push people to think differently about transportation.

That's part of the reason why we chose the xB as our main platform - people tend to either love or hate the styling of the car.

The eBox will do 0-60 mph in around 7 seconds. Actually, we tested the car at the California Speedway and got 7.02 seconds on a low, hot battery. If the battery was fresh, we probably could have got under 6.7 seconds.

Funny side story, during our testing we actually out-slalomed the new VW Rabbit that was also being tested!

The range of our car is 120-180 miles per charge, depending on the driving conditions. The worse traffic is, the more range the car will get. The faster you drive, the less range there will be (since there are greater aerodynamic energy losses).

My daily work commute is 100 miles round-trip, and I never have to worry about a low battery. When I park the car at home or at work, I take 15 seconds to plug it in and forget about it. I never have to think about where the nearest gas station is!

The sound and feel of acceleration in the eBox is a little like a Boeing 747 taking off - the acceleration smoothly rushes up, and it never backs off. There are no power dips or spikes, and it feels like the acceleration is endless. The sound is like a faint jet engine.

whoa! 6.7 seconds, that cuts the regular box time in half! I would LOVE to have an ebox! You guys should take over and start converting boxes pronto! That's super fast! Maybe when the prices go down on this technology i will get one. I might even buy an electric car next b/c of that. And i will be saving money on gas.

The high cost of the electric conversions comes almost entirely from the cost of batteries. As the technology matures, we're sure that the cost of batteries will come down to the point where it's more affordable.

Also, the electric motor in the eBox has been "detuned" because the xB's drivetrain can't handle much more power reliably. The same motor (but not detuned) placed in our Tzero sports car will do 0-60 mph in 3.6 seconds!

I have heard that electric vehicles have great acceleration. I just can't believe they were "killed" by our wonderful government and gas industry!! An eBox would be awesome to have...pull up to a Mustang GT or another Rice Rocket and keep up with them, or even possibly smoke 'em! :) Can't wait 'til they are more affordable...

It would be great to have an eBox....greater acceleration, no more gas pumps, just plug it in before bed....

Electric box! Sounds good I only wish I could afford it.

I have heard that electric vehicles have great acceleration. I just can't believe they were "killed" by our wonderful government and gas industry!! An eBox would be awesome to have...pull up to a Mustang GT or another Rice Rocket and keep up with them, or even possibly smoke 'em! :) Can't wait 'til they are more affordable...

Electric and hybrids still have a ways to come, mostly due to the battery design. For example, manufatcturing the batteries used in the Prius actually create more pollution than a Hummer will in it's lifetime. It has to do with where the nickel is mined, then sent off around the world to numerous spots for refining and manufacturing. When you add up the sulphur dioxide pollution, and the energy used to make, and maintain them thru expected lifetime, it adds up to more than that of a Hummer.

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=417227&in_page_id=1770

I had a few of these articles saved somewhere I thought, but one of them included alot of other vehicle comparisons and the energy for manufacturing and maintaining.

The good news for Scions, they are one of the most evniromentally friendly when you add up the energy to make, fuel and maintain. :bow:

Don't get me wrong, I am all for Hybrids and or electrics. We just need to work on the battery problems now to hit the goals.

electricity is not free. it uses oil , coal , and costs someone whether it's an employer , a home owner or whoever a TON of money.



so how long does it take to charge from dead to full ?

how many miles per charge and at what mph and acceleration rates is that ?

how much more does your ebox weigh compared to the standard car.

hotbox, of course electricity isn't free, but its a whole lot cheaper and more efficient than petrol. I did an engineering project on hybrids/nevs and the cost for a charge on lithium-ion battery's is around 2 dollars.

ACPropulsion already said that it goes 120-180 miles per charge, meaning its getting atleast 60 miles per dollar. Compare this to most cars getting 30-40 miles per 2.5 dollars, thats quite a jump.

Not to mention that there is such a thing as green energy, which doesnt come from oil or coal, most comes from wind or hydroelectric energy, even tidal energy is being used.

I think you are being over critical of the eBox and ACPropulsion. Its not like he's trying to push it on you, hes just explaining his idea and progressing the way we think about transportation.

i'm expressing my opinion. i'm entitled to do that about a car

there is green energy and depending upon where you live it's either prevalent or it is not.


I have a feeling that charging up an ev costs more than 2 dollars but neither of us have energy bills to prove it so....

the e box is a good idea for a rich person who doesn't drive too many places.

someone like me who drives everywhere all the time , and cannot afford 70k , which is the largest factor by far.


call me old fashioned I just like internal combustion engines.


they're not the best but theyre fun , then again so are jet engines and hell even electric motors are kind of fun , lol

I don't think anyone is being overly critical of electric vehicles or our work. Realistically, the electric car is NOT the perfect solution for ALL our transportation needs. Any source of energy we use and any process of manufacture will have an impact on our environment. We recognize that, but we do also have the opinion that this is one step in the right direction for finding an environmentally friendly solution. Afterall, it's better than doing nothing at all and waiting for things to get worse!

To make a point, if we never showed that a real, practical electric car exists, there would be no motivation for battery manufacturers to improve their technology for automotive use.

As for how to generate the electricity, we believe that power companies are in a much better position than car makers to find an environmentally friendly and efficient way of making it. Yes, there are good and bad ways of generating electricity. An electric car will never be dependent on any one method of generation, so this gives us much more flexibility.

BTW, Xiro's calculations on the cost per mile are pretty accurate.

To answer some questions, if you start off with an empty battery and use a 240V dryer outlet (typically 50 amps) it would take almost 5 hours to fully charge. But in reality this scenario almost never happens because the cars are typically charged in smaller increments. For example, after I drive to work and park the car I'll plug it in. It takes 1 hour to fully charge. At the end of my work day, I drive home and plug the car in my garage. Again, it only takes 1 hour to fully charge. The charging is done in smaller steps, unlike with a gasoline-based car where you normally run it to near-empty before filling back up.

As I mentioned before, my daily work commute is 100 miles and I've never come across a low battery. And since I plug the car in when I park, I could easily do a couple hundred or more miles in a day without worry.

If I were a cross-country driver, then I would run into some difficulties. But how many of us need to drive more than a hundred miles at a time?

The range of our eBox is 120-180 miles per charge in real-world conditions. The major limiting factor in mileage is the poor aerodynamics of the xB.

The batteries add about 500 lbs of weight to the car. We place the batteries underneath the seats and where the fuel tank used to be, so there is practically no loss of interior room.

Right now, the target eBox driver is not your average joe, nor is it your average rich joe. It's definitely not the person who wants to save money on fuel. The target is the person who wants to help push a solution forward. Everything right now is about getting people to think about our future, and hopefully we'll eventually reach a good solution. Whether this solution includes electric cars or some other method of propulsion, I don't know nor does it matter as long as we make progress.

Personally, I like internal combustion engines (ICE) too. I own a BMW M3 and it's as fun as it looks. But with some of the things we're doing with our eBoxes, my M3 is in danger of being the slow-poke!

I think the xB is a great platfrom for what you are doing. Lot's of room for battery packs. I just wish scion would have made a hybrid version. Electric would not work for me. I need to once in awhile be able to drive a little further than the range and there would not be any places to plug in other than at home here, even if there were a place to plug in, i'm sure they wouldn't let me. Not to mention the cold temperatures up north kill battery range and also it would be a cold drive when your car is sitting outside in -10F.

I know you are focusing on promoting EVs but have you considered also doing a retro fit hybrid conversion of something like the xB, as another project to potentially reach a larger market? My mpg lately has been 40+ so it would be tough to come up with a hybrid retro fit kit cheap enough to make economical sence for me. If a company can do it though I'll be the first wanting to buy it.

Oh don't get me wrong, I am VERY glad people are working on electric vehicles and hybrids. I was just responding to the notion of the electric car being killed by goverments and oil companies.

Truth is, the technology isn't ready for an all out switch over to electric and hybrid only. And we know that battery designs will change, maybe to something like fuel cells.

I hope to someday own an electric car or hybrid, when the time is right and they're ready for me.

I am glad there are companies working on these designs. They will perfect the electric vehicle and hybrid designs probably before the batteries are perfected.

/salute ACPropulsion

Continue the great work on our beloved XBs.

ACP have yall tried to make a flex fuel box? I'd love to see one I could run off of biofuels?

the only downside, other then the obvious 70k price tag, to the ebox is you can't do the sound system like I want

I think that an area like Anchorage would be a bit harsh for an electric car, at least for now. Our electric cars are quite sophisticated however, and have electronic controls for maintaining battery temperatures and voltage leveling. The acceleration control is sophisticated as well, and can maintain maximum acceleration regardless of the road conditions.

We have also made plug-in hybrids using various Volkswagens as the platform. In our hybrids we use electric drive as our main source, unlike the Prius. Basically, we start off with an electric car with batteries, and add a small gasoline engine into the mix to top off the batteries when needed.

We've also made a small gasoline-based generator that can be towed behind our electric vehicles for the occasional long trip.

As for fuel cells, there's always potential for a breakthrough there. We're not actively working with it however, since we don't want to spread our efforts too thin across many different possibilities.

Welcome to Scionlife ACPropulsion!

How effective do you think solar panels on the top of the XB would be for recharging? There's a lot of surface area to use.

We've been considering installing some solar panels on the eBox. We might even already have the panels somewhere, waiting to be installed (it's hard to keep up with all the things that go on here). From what I remember, the panels wouldn't add very much juice to the car. You would need a lot more surface area, for example the area of the roof of a house, to be more practical. When I get back to the office I'll look up the numbers that we've calculated.

although my feelings on an electric car are mixed, i love that there are steps forward for it! :clap: for u! gl!

I'd love to go electric if it was more affordable or if I had more $$$.

[quote="Madzozs"]"San Dimas High School football rules!"


And I thought that I was the only person who remembered this line from Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure....

hmmm an electric MKII vw would be awesome too
and keep in mind when thinking about handling that even though there is more weight it is generally behind the front axle making for better weight distribution

I don't think anyone is being overly critical of electric vehicles or our work. Realistically, the electric car is NOT the perfect solution for ALL our transportation needs. Any source of energy we use and any process of manufacture will have an impact on our environment. We recognize that, but we do also have the opinion that this is one step in the right direction for finding an environmentally friendly solution. Afterall, it's better than doing nothing at all and waiting for things to get worse!

To make a point, if we never showed that a real, practical electric car exists, there would be no motivation for battery manufacturers to improve their technology for automotive use.

As for how to generate the electricity, we believe that power companies are in a much better position than car makers to find an environmentally friendly and efficient way of making it. Yes, there are good and bad ways of generating electricity. An electric car will never be dependent on any one method of generation, so this gives us much more flexibility.

BTW, Xiro's calculations on the cost per mile are pretty accurate.

To answer some questions, if you start off with an empty battery and use a 240V dryer outlet (typically 50 amps) it would take almost 5 hours to fully charge. But in reality this scenario almost never happens because the cars are typically charged in smaller increments. For example, after I drive to work and park the car I'll plug it in. It takes 1 hour to fully charge. At the end of my work day, I drive home and plug the car in my garage. Again, it only takes 1 hour to fully charge. The charging is done in smaller steps, unlike with a gasoline-based car where you normally run it to near-empty before filling back up.

As I mentioned before, my daily work commute is 100 miles and I've never come across a low battery. And since I plug the car in when I park, I could easily do a couple hundred or more miles in a day without worry.

If I were a cross-country driver, then I would run into some difficulties. But how many of us need to drive more than a hundred miles at a time?

The range of our eBox is 120-180 miles per charge in real-world conditions. The major limiting factor in mileage is the poor aerodynamics of the xB.

The batteries add about 500 lbs of weight to the car. We place the batteries underneath the seats and where the fuel tank used to be, so there is practically no loss of interior room.

Right now, the target eBox driver is not your average joe, nor is it your average rich joe. It's definitely not the person who wants to save money on fuel. The target is the person who wants to help push a solution forward. Everything right now is about getting people to think about our future, and hopefully we'll eventually reach a good solution. Whether this solution includes electric cars or some other method of propulsion, I don't know nor does it matter as long as we make progress.

Personally, I like internal combustion engines (ICE) too. I own a BMW M3 and it's as fun as it looks. But with some of the things we're doing with our eBoxes, my M3 is in danger of being the slow-poke!

the xb actually has very good coef figures

[quote=Madzozs]"San Dimas High School football rules!"


And I thought that I was the only person who remembered this line from Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure....

it's also a pretty current song title

the xb actually has very good coef figures

I think I read somewhere that the Cd is 0.35, which by today's standards isn't very good. Even worse though, is the large frontal area. Cd can be improved relatively easily, but frontal area is much more difficult to do anything about (unless you want a chop-top). Cd and frontal area each have the same amount of influence on aerodynamic drag, so Cd alone won't give you the full picture of a car's aerodynamics.



To reply to an earlier post, if we added solar panels to the roof of an xB it would have an effect of approximately 10 miles of range per day in the sun (in Southern California).

I've been seriously coveting an ebox since I first read about them a year ago. I just got my 06 xB a month ago and I can't wait until either the price drops (come on battery manufacturers!) or I win the lottery.
The problem I have is this: I bought an automatic (Easy guys, I know, I know).
Is there anyway to do the electric conversion on an automatic?

Yes, it's possible to do a conversion of an auto xB, but it would require purchasing a used (or new) manual transmission. We do not use any of the Scion electronics for driving the car, so the differences between an auto and manual xB for us is purely mechanical.