Ummm just tell me the APR!
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15
Ummm just tell me the APR!
GOD...
Well, I bought my first car last week (an azure pearl tc). I'm one year out of college and have some sketchy credit so I had my dad co-sign for the financing.
First time I went into the dealership was on my lunch break for a test drive. The salesmen was mellow showed me all the gadgets how the car worked and let me drive it around town. Overall, it was a good experience.
THEN, I came back in with dad to do the deal. First they start me off by asking me what kind of a monthly payment I want to make (Big Mistake). I'm thinking to myself , "what does that have to do with the price of eggs?" So naturally I told him something lower than what I thought the monthly payment was going to be. Then he goes to the "manager" and runs the finance numbers....by now I'm beginning to get aggravated.
So he comes back and tells me based on the credit of me and my father that my payment is going to be such and such (very affordable for myself but I'm not sure what it actually comes out to). I should state that my dad has a near perfect credit score. He has never been late on a payment in his life and should be able to get prime on anything he wants.
So I want to know what we're getting for an APR, and this kid won't tell me! I'm pretty baffled. He says he we need to fill out all this paperwork and we won't have to sign it he assures me to get the "manager" to figure out my APR. So we do that. He goes to the manager. Then he wants some kind of money to do the math....
I'm really aggravated at this point. I tell him I'm an engineer and I know how math works. he can give me a pen, paper and a calculator and let me do it myself or he's gonna get his "manager" to tell me the APR right now and I'm not gonna pay a cent for it...
So at this point the kid is aggravated because I'm being a hardass. After twenty minutes this guy comes over and tells me the APR. It's like a quarter point over prime, which is fine with me.
Why was this so difficult? GOD
Well, I bought my first car last week (an azure pearl tc). I'm one year out of college and have some sketchy credit so I had my dad co-sign for the financing.
First time I went into the dealership was on my lunch break for a test drive. The salesmen was mellow showed me all the gadgets how the car worked and let me drive it around town. Overall, it was a good experience.
THEN, I came back in with dad to do the deal. First they start me off by asking me what kind of a monthly payment I want to make (Big Mistake). I'm thinking to myself , "what does that have to do with the price of eggs?" So naturally I told him something lower than what I thought the monthly payment was going to be. Then he goes to the "manager" and runs the finance numbers....by now I'm beginning to get aggravated.
So he comes back and tells me based on the credit of me and my father that my payment is going to be such and such (very affordable for myself but I'm not sure what it actually comes out to). I should state that my dad has a near perfect credit score. He has never been late on a payment in his life and should be able to get prime on anything he wants.
So I want to know what we're getting for an APR, and this kid won't tell me! I'm pretty baffled. He says he we need to fill out all this paperwork and we won't have to sign it he assures me to get the "manager" to figure out my APR. So we do that. He goes to the manager. Then he wants some kind of money to do the math....
I'm really aggravated at this point. I tell him I'm an engineer and I know how math works. he can give me a pen, paper and a calculator and let me do it myself or he's gonna get his "manager" to tell me the APR right now and I'm not gonna pay a cent for it...
So at this point the kid is aggravated because I'm being a hardass. After twenty minutes this guy comes over and tells me the APR. It's like a quarter point over prime, which is fine with me.
Why was this so difficult? GOD
Senior Member
SL Member
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 526
From: Springfield Scion (VA)
Why so difficult? Well it shouldn't be. At least not with Scion. Let me explain the "normal" proceedure and explain the difference with Scion. That may make it clear as to why a Toyota salesman has such a hard time with this question.
With Toyota, and just about every other manufacturer, the dealer is allowed to "hold rate" on the financing. They have a finance department who's function is to arrange financing and complete paperwork. Part of the way these guys are paid is by holding rate. If they have a customer with a certain credit score (say 660), he can offer a rate as low as 5.45%. He can also arrange a loan for this customer at a rate up to 8.45%. The dealership shares this profit (usually 70-30%) with the bank. The finance manager is paid a commission on this amount. If he does the deal at retention of 5.45%, the dealer gets a "flat" fee of roughly $100.
So... if that customer has not done his homework, or if his bank has already turned him down or offered him a 10% rate based on his score, the 8.45% can be pretty attractive for all involved. On the other hand, the customer may have been brainwashed by the advertisements for incentivized rates like 2.9% and think that even 5.45% is outrageous. In those cases, the finance guy has to be a good negotiator and be able to explain what credit scores, incentivized rates and standard rates really mean.
We train salesmen to sell cars. That's a difficult enough job. Teaching them to sell an interest rate and financing packages is next to impossible until they've been in the business a while.
There is even one more complication. In some cases, we can get tier exceptions. For instance, if we have a customer with a score of 640, the retention rate is 10.75%. The customer may not even argue this rate because he knows his credit is bad. That customer may have a monthly payment budget that can't be met by this rate. If that customer has a steady employment history, good down payment and hasn't had a repossession with Toyota, we can sometimes get tier exceptions where he gets qualified for a tier 1 or 2 rate in spite of his score. This takes a lot of effort on the part of the finance department and isn't something for a sales guy to get involved with.
Scion is different. There is no such thing as a tier exception. Your rate is based ONLY on your score. The dealer is not allowed to hold rate. In exchange for this, we are paid a higher flat fee of $250 to $325. Everything is simplified. Its a simple matter for a salesman to pull up thier web site and point to the chart and say, "If you know your credit score, or the score of your co-signer, you know your rate."
Unfortunately, some dealers are having a hard time making the distinction between Scion and Toyota customers. A salesman can be fired for quoting rates to a Toyota cusotmer and they should be fired for NOT quoting rate to a Scion customer.
With Toyota, and just about every other manufacturer, the dealer is allowed to "hold rate" on the financing. They have a finance department who's function is to arrange financing and complete paperwork. Part of the way these guys are paid is by holding rate. If they have a customer with a certain credit score (say 660), he can offer a rate as low as 5.45%. He can also arrange a loan for this customer at a rate up to 8.45%. The dealership shares this profit (usually 70-30%) with the bank. The finance manager is paid a commission on this amount. If he does the deal at retention of 5.45%, the dealer gets a "flat" fee of roughly $100.
So... if that customer has not done his homework, or if his bank has already turned him down or offered him a 10% rate based on his score, the 8.45% can be pretty attractive for all involved. On the other hand, the customer may have been brainwashed by the advertisements for incentivized rates like 2.9% and think that even 5.45% is outrageous. In those cases, the finance guy has to be a good negotiator and be able to explain what credit scores, incentivized rates and standard rates really mean.
We train salesmen to sell cars. That's a difficult enough job. Teaching them to sell an interest rate and financing packages is next to impossible until they've been in the business a while.
There is even one more complication. In some cases, we can get tier exceptions. For instance, if we have a customer with a score of 640, the retention rate is 10.75%. The customer may not even argue this rate because he knows his credit is bad. That customer may have a monthly payment budget that can't be met by this rate. If that customer has a steady employment history, good down payment and hasn't had a repossession with Toyota, we can sometimes get tier exceptions where he gets qualified for a tier 1 or 2 rate in spite of his score. This takes a lot of effort on the part of the finance department and isn't something for a sales guy to get involved with.
Scion is different. There is no such thing as a tier exception. Your rate is based ONLY on your score. The dealer is not allowed to hold rate. In exchange for this, we are paid a higher flat fee of $250 to $325. Everything is simplified. Its a simple matter for a salesman to pull up thier web site and point to the chart and say, "If you know your credit score, or the score of your co-signer, you know your rate."
Unfortunately, some dealers are having a hard time making the distinction between Scion and Toyota customers. A salesman can be fired for quoting rates to a Toyota cusotmer and they should be fired for NOT quoting rate to a Scion customer.
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15
Originally Posted by cliffy1
Why so difficult? Well it shouldn't be. At least not with Scion. Let me explain the "normal" proceedure and explain the difference with Scion. That may make it clear as to why a Toyota salesman has such a hard time with this question.
With Toyota, and just about every other manufacturer, the dealer is allowed to "hold rate" on the financing. They have a finance department who's function is to arrange financing and complete paperwork. Part of the way these guys are paid is by holding rate. If they have a customer with a certain credit score (say 660), he can offer a rate as low as 5.45%. He can also arrange a loan for this customer at a rate up to 8.45%. The dealership shares this profit (usually 70-30%) with the bank. The finance manager is paid a commission on this amount. If he does the deal at retention of 5.45%, the dealer gets a "flat" fee of roughly $100.
So... if that customer has not done his homework, or if his bank has already turned him down or offered him a 10% rate based on his score, the 8.45% can be pretty attractive for all involved. On the other hand, the customer may have been brainwashed by the advertisements for incentivized rates like 2.9% and think that even 5.45% is outrageous. In those cases, the finance guy has to be a good negotiator and be able to explain what credit scores, incentivized rates and standard rates really mean.
We train salesmen to sell cars. That's a difficult enough job. Teaching them to sell an interest rate and financing packages is next to impossible until they've been in the business a while.
There is even one more complication. In some cases, we can get tier exceptions. For instance, if we have a customer with a score of 640, the retention rate is 10.75%. The customer may not even argue this rate because he knows his credit is bad. That customer may have a monthly payment budget that can't be met by this rate. If that customer has a steady employment history, good down payment and hasn't had a repossession with Toyota, we can sometimes get tier exceptions where he gets qualified for a tier 1 or 2 rate in spite of his score. This takes a lot of effort on the part of the finance department and isn't something for a sales guy to get involved with.
Scion is different. There is no such thing as a tier exception. Your rate is based ONLY on your score. The dealer is not allowed to hold rate. In exchange for this, we are paid a higher flat fee of $250 to $325. Everything is simplified. Its a simple matter for a salesman to pull up thier web site and point to the chart and say, "If you know your credit score, or the score of your co-signer, you know your rate."
Unfortunately, some dealers are having a hard time making the distinction between Scion and Toyota customers. A salesman can be fired for quoting rates to a Toyota cusotmer and they should be fired for NOT quoting rate to a Scion customer.
With Toyota, and just about every other manufacturer, the dealer is allowed to "hold rate" on the financing. They have a finance department who's function is to arrange financing and complete paperwork. Part of the way these guys are paid is by holding rate. If they have a customer with a certain credit score (say 660), he can offer a rate as low as 5.45%. He can also arrange a loan for this customer at a rate up to 8.45%. The dealership shares this profit (usually 70-30%) with the bank. The finance manager is paid a commission on this amount. If he does the deal at retention of 5.45%, the dealer gets a "flat" fee of roughly $100.
So... if that customer has not done his homework, or if his bank has already turned him down or offered him a 10% rate based on his score, the 8.45% can be pretty attractive for all involved. On the other hand, the customer may have been brainwashed by the advertisements for incentivized rates like 2.9% and think that even 5.45% is outrageous. In those cases, the finance guy has to be a good negotiator and be able to explain what credit scores, incentivized rates and standard rates really mean.
We train salesmen to sell cars. That's a difficult enough job. Teaching them to sell an interest rate and financing packages is next to impossible until they've been in the business a while.
There is even one more complication. In some cases, we can get tier exceptions. For instance, if we have a customer with a score of 640, the retention rate is 10.75%. The customer may not even argue this rate because he knows his credit is bad. That customer may have a monthly payment budget that can't be met by this rate. If that customer has a steady employment history, good down payment and hasn't had a repossession with Toyota, we can sometimes get tier exceptions where he gets qualified for a tier 1 or 2 rate in spite of his score. This takes a lot of effort on the part of the finance department and isn't something for a sales guy to get involved with.
Scion is different. There is no such thing as a tier exception. Your rate is based ONLY on your score. The dealer is not allowed to hold rate. In exchange for this, we are paid a higher flat fee of $250 to $325. Everything is simplified. Its a simple matter for a salesman to pull up thier web site and point to the chart and say, "If you know your credit score, or the score of your co-signer, you know your rate."
Unfortunately, some dealers are having a hard time making the distinction between Scion and Toyota customers. A salesman can be fired for quoting rates to a Toyota cusotmer and they should be fired for NOT quoting rate to a Scion customer.
THEN he tries to get me to sign this "promissory" not which essentially means if we the financing somehow doesn't get accepted by the bank they can demand the total balance thirty days after the sale or force us to use financing that they arrange. BLOW ME. I made him crumple that page up and throw it out...
Where do I go to _____ about this?
Member
SL Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 54
why don't you just finance with a credit union and avoid this huge mess? or better yet find a better dealership to work with?
my only other recommendation is to pull your credit scores from something like privacyguard.com, they usually run a $2 trial subscription and you can see all your credit scores.
toyota finance should be pulling a fico score that's close to the same as the scores that you see, although they will say that they are using an "auto" fico score that's computed a bit differently than your typical score.
with this sort of information on hand there should be no doubt as to where you fall for your apr.
best of luck to you.
my only other recommendation is to pull your credit scores from something like privacyguard.com, they usually run a $2 trial subscription and you can see all your credit scores.
toyota finance should be pulling a fico score that's close to the same as the scores that you see, although they will say that they are using an "auto" fico score that's computed a bit differently than your typical score.
with this sort of information on hand there should be no doubt as to where you fall for your apr.
best of luck to you.
Senior Member
SL Member
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 526
From: Springfield Scion (VA)
Originally Posted by tleilaxutank
Well I guess I have some hides to collect. Because when i went to sign the sale and financing they did it again! This time they extended the loan from 60 months to 72 months (they best they could do, my ___) very sneakily. Then went down to 6.5% as the ABSOLUTE best they could do...then I said we already got a quote of 5.25% at 60 months, buddy. so he goes and talks to the other guy and is like "well he's the boss so you get what he says you get" which is the 5.25 for 60 mnths.
THEN he tries to get me to sign this "promissory" not which essentially means if we the financing somehow doesn't get accepted by the bank they can demand the total balance thirty days after the sale or force us to use financing that they arrange. BLOW ME. I made him crumple that page up and throw it out...
Where do I go to _____ about this?
1. Call the Scion customer service number and tell them exactly what happened. This generates a contact that the dealership is responsible for dealing with. They have to make a complete and detailed report as to what they did to fix the situation.
2. Go to your dealer's web site and look under the tab for Financing. There should be a button for "F&I Pricing". Print it out. It has their rate tiers and rates. If they sell Scions, they are required to have this on thier site.
3. Ask to see your credit score. They are not required to give you a copy of the report. In fact, legally, they can't give it to you. Legally, they can show it to you. Now that you know the score they have, compare it to the printout from their web site.
The P-note probably also has an "out" built into it where you can return the car if they are unable to arrange financing. Its actually called a MacArthur Statement (literally, "I shall return") and it says you agree to either return the car or make other financ arrangements if their financing doesn't get approved. Better yet, have them get the approval first. They don't have to wait until you have signed the contract in order to submit it to the bank. I do this all the time.
Good luck man. Keep me updated. I do this for a living and it really ____es me off when I see dealers pulling this kind of thing. Toyota is one thing, but don't ruin the Scion reputation.
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15
thanks for the reply cliffy,
I ended up getting the deal I wanted but I was pretty ____ed off that i had to do business with a dealership that tried to basically steal from me. I'm from Rhode Island and there aren't many stocked scion dealers here at all.
I know both my dad's (the principal loan carrier) and my own FICO scores. My father's is over 800. We were being SCREWED...
They should have really thought twice seeing how me and my father work for the two biggest companies on that street and supply that dealership with enormous business (at the admition of the general manager)
I ended up getting the deal I wanted but I was pretty ____ed off that i had to do business with a dealership that tried to basically steal from me. I'm from Rhode Island and there aren't many stocked scion dealers here at all.
I know both my dad's (the principal loan carrier) and my own FICO scores. My father's is over 800. We were being SCREWED...
They should have really thought twice seeing how me and my father work for the two biggest companies on that street and supply that dealership with enormous business (at the admition of the general manager)
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