Dealership trashes the paint & windows on an xB I just purchased
11-20-2011, 09:20 PM
#1
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Dealership trashes the paint & windows on an xB I just purchased
I'm new to this board so please let me know if this post belongs in another forum. I introduced myself earlier on the 1st gen xB forum and, in that post, I alluded to a problem I was having with the dealership where I bought the xB. I'm in need of some good advice because I'll be confronting the dealer tomorrow (tuesday at the latest).
I just bought my 2005 xb from my local Honda dealer. I wasn't getting them down to my price and so I worked a couple of things into the deal. They were trying to sell me an undercoating and so I got them to do that for free. Also, the paint and windows had a lot of hard water spots and so they agreed to remove them. I'm realizing now that I should have held back some money until these things were done to my satisfaction. Still, I did get everything in writing and that has helped. What ensued is a long story with them doing things like telling me that the water spots we completely gone from the windows when, in fact, almost nothing had been done. I won't bore you with all those details because they really aren't relevant now. I will say that along the way I consulted with a professional auto detailer and the owner of a body shop to make sure I knew what I was talking about when I made my complaints. Those people were wonderful. They helped me for free and were genuinely concerned about what was happening to me and my car. I can't say enough good things about them.
So here's the deal: Honda finally agreed to do the job right and, because I no longer had any reason to trust that they would do what they said they would do, I made it a point to have them tell me exactly how they were going to do the job. They told that they were going to do exactly what my detailer said needed to be done (mild acid wash followed by rubbing compound and wax on the paint; mild acid and 0000 steel wool on the windows). That all sounded great and so I left the car. The professional detailer I consulted with told me the whole job would take him three hours. So I was surprised when Honda called two hours later telling me the job was done. I went down and the car did look a lot better. It was by no means perfect, but it was looking pretty good. The salesperson then proudly stated that they had found a product called Whink Rust Stain Remover that took the hard water spots right out. I didn't know what that was, but it was clear that there were still some problems. For example, on one of the side windows there seemed to be streaks of hard water that actually felt like ripples in the glass when you ran your fingers across them. The salesperson assured me that a little more winks would take those streaks right out. It was also clear that they forgot to do sections like the front spoiler. Again, I was told that a little more Whinks would do the trick.
So I took the car back to the detailer and he was appauled. Then I demonstrated the ripples in the window. He felt them and said. "Oh oh." That didn't sound good. He told me the streaks were not hard water. They were glass and they weren't there the last time he looked at my car. I didn't understand and said so. He then told me that someone left acid on the window so long that it actually etched the glass. We then found ripples on other windows and in the paint. I went across the street to Ace Hardware and bought a bottle of Whink for $3.75. On the front of the bottle it says, "Not a general rust remover. Do not use this product unless you intend to follow directions." On the back of the bottle it says, "Avoid contact with any surface not stated in directions, including bahtubs, countertops, stainless steel sinks, and glass surfaces." So I went to their website where I learned that it isn't supposed to be used on glass because it will etch the glass. This stuff is supposed to be used on carpets, white toilets, a few other surfaces, and that's it. So I called their customer service hotine and found out that not only does it etch glass, it destroys paint! They told me about a guy who had a large boat with 14 windows. He rapidly put this product on all 14 windows and, when he got back to the first window some 10 minutes later, he could no longer see through it. All 14 windows had to be replaced. They said that is why they put such clear warnings on the product because some people just won't read the directions and they often get themselves into a lot of trouble. This stuff is primarily hydrofluric acid that is so highly concentrated that the company needed to get a waiver from the federal government to be able to continue selling it when federal regulations were put into place some 30 years ago. It turns stainless steel black on contact. It turns concrete to dust in 10 minutes. Its amazing stuff as long as someone isn't using it on my car!
Here is where I am now: The detailer did some work and believes he can fix everything including the etched glass. From what he did, it looks like he can get the car looking great. He sent me to an auto body shop to see if they could assess any thinning of the clear coat. They told me that people will tell you they can, but it is impossible. No matter how good the detailer gets everything to look, the paint could last another six years or it could last six months. There is no way to tell. They also said they would be surprised if three of the windows could be saved. They thought the glass would need to be replaced. This agreed with what Whink told me. They said that, in their experience, what I was descibing could not be fixed and that window replacement was the only option. They also told me that I should wait at least a couple of weeks before anything is done to the paint because it could take that long for the full damage to be seen.
I've obviously decided that this dealership is never going to touch my car again. I haven't approached them yet on this because I'm still trying to assess damages. Clearly, they need to pay a detailer of my choice to try to fix the problems they caused. But what about the potential problems with the paint? I don't think it would be at all reasonable for me to ask for a new paint job when the paint could last many years. But it would be equally unreasonable for them to ask me to just live with this uncertainty. What happens if the paint starts to fail within the next couple of years? I can imagine a situation where I am blaming them and they are blaming me. You would hope a judge would be able to sort that out, but it would still be a huge mess to deal with. So I'm at the point where I could use a lot of input from knowledgeable people such as yourselves. What do you think I should do. Btw, this is a Lithia dealership and so I do have the option of going over this dealership's head if I need to.
I just bought my 2005 xb from my local Honda dealer. I wasn't getting them down to my price and so I worked a couple of things into the deal. They were trying to sell me an undercoating and so I got them to do that for free. Also, the paint and windows had a lot of hard water spots and so they agreed to remove them. I'm realizing now that I should have held back some money until these things were done to my satisfaction. Still, I did get everything in writing and that has helped. What ensued is a long story with them doing things like telling me that the water spots we completely gone from the windows when, in fact, almost nothing had been done. I won't bore you with all those details because they really aren't relevant now. I will say that along the way I consulted with a professional auto detailer and the owner of a body shop to make sure I knew what I was talking about when I made my complaints. Those people were wonderful. They helped me for free and were genuinely concerned about what was happening to me and my car. I can't say enough good things about them.
So here's the deal: Honda finally agreed to do the job right and, because I no longer had any reason to trust that they would do what they said they would do, I made it a point to have them tell me exactly how they were going to do the job. They told that they were going to do exactly what my detailer said needed to be done (mild acid wash followed by rubbing compound and wax on the paint; mild acid and 0000 steel wool on the windows). That all sounded great and so I left the car. The professional detailer I consulted with told me the whole job would take him three hours. So I was surprised when Honda called two hours later telling me the job was done. I went down and the car did look a lot better. It was by no means perfect, but it was looking pretty good. The salesperson then proudly stated that they had found a product called Whink Rust Stain Remover that took the hard water spots right out. I didn't know what that was, but it was clear that there were still some problems. For example, on one of the side windows there seemed to be streaks of hard water that actually felt like ripples in the glass when you ran your fingers across them. The salesperson assured me that a little more winks would take those streaks right out. It was also clear that they forgot to do sections like the front spoiler. Again, I was told that a little more Whinks would do the trick.
So I took the car back to the detailer and he was appauled. Then I demonstrated the ripples in the window. He felt them and said. "Oh oh." That didn't sound good. He told me the streaks were not hard water. They were glass and they weren't there the last time he looked at my car. I didn't understand and said so. He then told me that someone left acid on the window so long that it actually etched the glass. We then found ripples on other windows and in the paint. I went across the street to Ace Hardware and bought a bottle of Whink for $3.75. On the front of the bottle it says, "Not a general rust remover. Do not use this product unless you intend to follow directions." On the back of the bottle it says, "Avoid contact with any surface not stated in directions, including bahtubs, countertops, stainless steel sinks, and glass surfaces." So I went to their website where I learned that it isn't supposed to be used on glass because it will etch the glass. This stuff is supposed to be used on carpets, white toilets, a few other surfaces, and that's it. So I called their customer service hotine and found out that not only does it etch glass, it destroys paint! They told me about a guy who had a large boat with 14 windows. He rapidly put this product on all 14 windows and, when he got back to the first window some 10 minutes later, he could no longer see through it. All 14 windows had to be replaced. They said that is why they put such clear warnings on the product because some people just won't read the directions and they often get themselves into a lot of trouble. This stuff is primarily hydrofluric acid that is so highly concentrated that the company needed to get a waiver from the federal government to be able to continue selling it when federal regulations were put into place some 30 years ago. It turns stainless steel black on contact. It turns concrete to dust in 10 minutes. Its amazing stuff as long as someone isn't using it on my car!
Here is where I am now: The detailer did some work and believes he can fix everything including the etched glass. From what he did, it looks like he can get the car looking great. He sent me to an auto body shop to see if they could assess any thinning of the clear coat. They told me that people will tell you they can, but it is impossible. No matter how good the detailer gets everything to look, the paint could last another six years or it could last six months. There is no way to tell. They also said they would be surprised if three of the windows could be saved. They thought the glass would need to be replaced. This agreed with what Whink told me. They said that, in their experience, what I was descibing could not be fixed and that window replacement was the only option. They also told me that I should wait at least a couple of weeks before anything is done to the paint because it could take that long for the full damage to be seen.
I've obviously decided that this dealership is never going to touch my car again. I haven't approached them yet on this because I'm still trying to assess damages. Clearly, they need to pay a detailer of my choice to try to fix the problems they caused. But what about the potential problems with the paint? I don't think it would be at all reasonable for me to ask for a new paint job when the paint could last many years. But it would be equally unreasonable for them to ask me to just live with this uncertainty. What happens if the paint starts to fail within the next couple of years? I can imagine a situation where I am blaming them and they are blaming me. You would hope a judge would be able to sort that out, but it would still be a huge mess to deal with. So I'm at the point where I could use a lot of input from knowledgeable people such as yourselves. What do you think I should do. Btw, this is a Lithia dealership and so I do have the option of going over this dealership's head if I need to.
11-21-2011, 06:06 AM
#2
Ok, one thing you need to do is keep evidence. If this ever goes to court, you gotta back up everything. keep a written timeline of events, Take lotsa pictures, get it all in writing!
I will be up front in saying that the factory paint on xB's are horrible. My 2006 paint started chipping off just a few months ago, and today there is some significant damage on the roof. My hood paint was so bad that I just bought a new carbon fibre hood off ebay.
So with that in mind, if they repair the paint now, I wouldnt be surprised to see it chipping away in a few years.
The dealership sold you a car. They did damage to that vehicle. They need to pay to repair it. If they refuse, get a lawyer.
I had a HUGE cunundrum with a Toyota dealership when trying to get a free windshield replaced after mine cracked for no reason (http://xbwindshieldsettlement.com/). They threw up so many roadblocks. After they finally gave me a replacement under a goodwill warranty program, they installed it and caused some minor paint damage. Plus now, I have rain water leaking inside my car. Huge fiasco, and I will never deal with that dealer again.
Anyway, you may need to take this to court. Ask to speak with a manager about the situation and see what he says. You should not pay a penny for the damages that the dealership caused with unknowingly using a house cleaning product.
I will be up front in saying that the factory paint on xB's are horrible. My 2006 paint started chipping off just a few months ago, and today there is some significant damage on the roof. My hood paint was so bad that I just bought a new carbon fibre hood off ebay.
So with that in mind, if they repair the paint now, I wouldnt be surprised to see it chipping away in a few years.
The dealership sold you a car. They did damage to that vehicle. They need to pay to repair it. If they refuse, get a lawyer.
I had a HUGE cunundrum with a Toyota dealership when trying to get a free windshield replaced after mine cracked for no reason (http://xbwindshieldsettlement.com/). They threw up so many roadblocks. After they finally gave me a replacement under a goodwill warranty program, they installed it and caused some minor paint damage. Plus now, I have rain water leaking inside my car. Huge fiasco, and I will never deal with that dealer again.
Anyway, you may need to take this to court. Ask to speak with a manager about the situation and see what he says. You should not pay a penny for the damages that the dealership caused with unknowingly using a house cleaning product.
11-21-2011, 08:39 AM
#3
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Well, I did some snooping today. Went back to the dealership telling the salesman I wanted to show him my new toy (scanguage). So it seemed like a friendly visit. Then I worked into the conversation questions about how the Whink product was applied and who came up with the idea in the first place. Got the info I needed. The idea came from their body shop guy about four months ago. That tells me who might eat it when the you-know-what hits the fan. I'm glad it isn't the salesperson 'cause I kind of like the dude. He drives an xB and that should at least give him some props. On the other hand, he seemed to know that the ripples in the window were not caused by hard water. So he may also know what happened and isn't telling me. As for the application process: They pour the stuff on a rag and just keep rubbing until the spots are gone. Then they flush with water. As the rag with the rust remover runs dry, they just keep adding rust remover. Heavy gloves are used because "it will seriously damage your hands if you don't wear gloves." That tells me that other customers have probably had this done to their cars. Salesman told me it has a mild acid in it and it is a lot safer than some of the car care products on the market. I'm pretty sure he wasn't lying on that one, so I really am not sure how much he really knows at this point about what happened. I still have another consult with my detailer tomorrow, maybe one more conversation with the salesperson, and then I'm taking the issue to management. Should be fun.
On the paint issue, my mind keeps going back and forth and I'm still not clear as to the best way to look at it. One way is to say that the paint is six years old, shows some of those chips you describe, and so the damages, while definitely there, are not HUGE. But if the paint were worse than it is now and a truck parked next to me accidentally spilled something all over my car ruining the paint, the truck driver's insurance would give me a new paint job in a jiffy. So maybe the condition of the paint is a moot issue. But then again, given the fact that we don't know the exact status of the paint in this case, if I ask for too much, that could hurt me if this ends up in court. Still not sure what I'll do, but I do have to make a decision because I can't just throw it out there and then see what, if anything, they offer to do. I think I need to ask for a specific solution and then see if they go for it. Along those lines, I probably need to build in a little negotiating room.
On the paint issue, my mind keeps going back and forth and I'm still not clear as to the best way to look at it. One way is to say that the paint is six years old, shows some of those chips you describe, and so the damages, while definitely there, are not HUGE. But if the paint were worse than it is now and a truck parked next to me accidentally spilled something all over my car ruining the paint, the truck driver's insurance would give me a new paint job in a jiffy. So maybe the condition of the paint is a moot issue. But then again, given the fact that we don't know the exact status of the paint in this case, if I ask for too much, that could hurt me if this ends up in court. Still not sure what I'll do, but I do have to make a decision because I can't just throw it out there and then see what, if anything, they offer to do. I think I need to ask for a specific solution and then see if they go for it. Along those lines, I probably need to build in a little negotiating room.
01-25-2012, 07:14 PM
#5
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Are you telling me he put that crap on the paint? I detail as a hobby have been doing so for over 15 years ( I deal with exotics/hot rods) ,That is retarded.. If it did that to windows it will destroy your paint but you should be able to see it clear as day.
Not sure where you live but I would find a detailer who owns a digital paint gauge and test the paint If you can find one who owns one and knows how to use it, you found a awesome detailer. Body shop will not want you to do this because it takes money out of their pocket
If the glass is etched with ripples he can't fix it, he might polish the hell out of it where you can't see it, but it's still there if it is etched.
If the acid got on the paint it would feel soft and probably come up easy. Go to the car wash and drop in $5 and power wash the hell out of it about 1ft away
FYI a mild polish on a light pad will get rid of hard water spots, no need for harsh chemicals.
DO NOT let this guy touch your car again, he's not a detailer , hes a person who washes cars who knows how to turn on a buffer
Not sure where you live but I would find a detailer who owns a digital paint gauge and test the paint If you can find one who owns one and knows how to use it, you found a awesome detailer. Body shop will not want you to do this because it takes money out of their pocket
If the glass is etched with ripples he can't fix it, he might polish the hell out of it where you can't see it, but it's still there if it is etched.
If the acid got on the paint it would feel soft and probably come up easy. Go to the car wash and drop in $5 and power wash the hell out of it about 1ft away
FYI a mild polish on a light pad will get rid of hard water spots, no need for harsh chemicals.
DO NOT let this guy touch your car again, he's not a detailer , hes a person who washes cars who knows how to turn on a buffer
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