^This war would be over in a month were a draft implemented...

 

First of all, I have the utmost respect for our soldiers. I do not see their sacrifice as lightly as you do, which honestly disturbs me.

Additionally, the civilians that are killed in war are to be expected. The majority of civilians being killed are being killed by fellow citizens, not by US Troops. This is occurring by rival ____e and sunni groups. Not the big bad US military picking off civilians for the fun of it as you make it seem.

 

WHY are we killing innocent men, women and children in Iraq? What did Saddam and his two psycho sons do for decades before? Their mentality was the same as the VT killer, kill those that don't agree with you. American soldiers are not unarmed students in a classroom. They are well trained military members in combat in a forign hostile country, they can DEFEND theirselves and their friends. Unarmed, untrained, unsuspecting students in the security of an American university have been MURDERED, not killed in combat.
And that's all I got to say about that!

 

There are extreme ramifications if the war was abruptly ended. The creation of a power-vaccuum is just one that comes to mind. Without adequate protection and sustainability, that government will collapse leaving all of that land, and all of those assets in the hands of whom ever fights the hardest.

Say what you want about the war and the justifications for starting it in the first place, the fact is we are there and if we do not unscrew what we screwed, we are just asking to return there another day against another leader.

 

LOL... Like the one we put in last time?
Sorry... I know that doesn't help anything or contribute to the conversation but you have to appreciate the irony.

 

sorry, but if you're easily offended, you shouldn't post here.
See, "I support the troops" too.
I support their lives, because I support american lives.

I admittingly have a totally different outlook on people who serve in the military than most, but i think it's for a better reason than they have.

I think the only people that should get a job that puts their lives at risk are single men and women without children. policeman, fireman, stuntmen, soldiers.

See, I have a son, and since he was born, I don't rely on high paying, short-term contract work because it doesn't guarantee my son living in a house and getting him medical care/insurance. A lower paying, but steady job better does. I also would never get a job that would jeopardize future paychecks that would support him, i.e. dangerous jobs that may kill me, because I serve my son.

I think men with children who get dangerous jobs when they don't have to, are very selfish and stupid. regardless if they are "serving" me.

what we did to their country turns many of those men/insurgents into desperate people, because they are supporting their families. Look, i realise these people are guided by their ignorant religion, but have you listened to any of the business owners and previously employed people of iraq talk aobut how their economy is destroyed? No one will shop at their stores, because we are there.

Many times reporters ask the people there: "Are you glad americans overthrew saddam?" many times the response is, "I guess, but I used to be able to support my family before americans invaded."

So when this guy who used to sell produce to support his family has to now steal or kill to support his children, i really don't blame him. and again, we caused that.

 

Good point. Same can be said with the Shah of Iran, look where that got us.

Fact of the matter is that Saddam in power did work in our favor. He was the lesser of two evils in the region and he did keep the nutjobs in Iran from infiltrating and becoming a very powerful force in the region. Historically we subscribe to the notion that "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" and while it works in the short term, it usually ends up biting us in the end.

 

I respect your outlook on providing for your son, you do have your priorities straight.
However, your freedoms, the freedoms of your son, and the freedoms of his son would not exist if it were not for an armed service willing to sacrifice their lives in order to better and continue your own way of life.

I am not defending the justifications of this war. But I am saying that if we were to leave this country and let that infant government try to maintain order, it will end up disastrous.
Nation building, takes many many years of support in order to become concrete. The American public is not interested in nation building, but our foreign polices are. We don't have the stomach to sit and bleed for 10+ years in a conflict unless there are crystal clear, and immediate benefits, not long term ones.

Under Saddam everything worked. The economy worked, the power worked, and there was control.. Removing him has caused the destruction of many of these previously functional institutions AND now restoring them is our obligation and responsibility.

 

I'm suprised you concede it as a good point. It makes your prior argument invalid. If we can fight so hard and sacrifice so many American lives just to see the person we put in power corrupted then why bother? You said we have to stay to see this end met but why if history can simply repeat itself?

 

Cost-Benefit.
If every 20-30 years we need to go in with force to "fix" and "reinstall" governments, it costs a certain amount of money.
If in those 20-30 years we profit in areas with these regimes (with money, security, free trade) that has a benefit associated with it.

Just a thought.

Obviously we would favor a situation where a nation remains friendly with us forever, but there are outside forces that we might not be able to control, so 20-30 years is all we can hope for at a time. And in that time, hopefully globalization encompasses these economies, along with the adequate distribution of wealth, which would make them less likely to revolt and cause more trouble

 

and those armed service members shouldn't be jeopardising their own families if they didn't have to. Look, we get invaded, I would kill everyone trying to invade. I think because of how crazy islamic law is, we should deport all of them to mexico(they deserve it). Read my thread about peace in iraq.

This is the same ignorance that our government and american people show when they talk about democracy in an islamic country. again, please read my poll about peace in iraq.

Shia will not live peacefully in a sunni run state. it's against their religion to do so.
Sunni will not live peacefully in a shia run state. it's against their religion to do so.

10 years or a 100 years of "nation building" will not change that. Look at every other islamic run country. It's only through dictatorships and all powerful monarchies do those countries even exist.

Look, we could "cut and run" now, and they'd go into civil war. OR we could spend another 10 years and 500billion+ dollars there, leave and then they go into civil war.

democracy will not work there. it's a joke to think it could. Do you know how important religion is in these people's lives? You think we got devote christians in this country? they pale in comparison to these muslims. They are not going to not obey their religion that tells them "if your country is not run by your religion, it is not your country and you need to fight to the death to make it so".

the only way "peace" will work there, is to have a dictator there, suppressing the other religion(s).

if we offer them peace, but they'd not take it, then it is no longer our responsibilty.

 

The fact of the matter is that these nations are only "important" because they happen to sit under some of the largest proven oil reserves on the planet.

Since 95% of the industrialized world runs on hydrocarbons, securing and stabilizing regions that contain these VITAL sources of energy is absolutely essential. It is in the best interest of the United States, as the only remaining superpower in the world, to make sure that these resources are accessible and secure. That is what it all comes down to.

I'm all for getting off of oil, and for alternative energy, but there will always be a presence in that region as long as there is oil to pump and money to be made. Which is not necessarily a bad thing, it's a necessary evil.

Installing "democracy" and voting etc.. this is all BS, we couldn't care less about the people of these regions, as long as they are conducive to our goals. But it sounds nice, it sounds idealistic and it helps sugarcoat our intentions.

 

this goes to what I was saying about us supporting only a few rich.

but here's what is happening. tax payer are paying for a war, and we are not getting any money back, via food for oil, or anything else.

But there are these companies going in right alongside the military, like haliburton, and are making money in this country, using the opprotunities our military has made for them. Why would our country do this? Because many of our elected officials privately hold shares in these companies and they themselves are getting rich, using tax payer money to make their opprotunity.

 

Dave... is there anyone on SL or in the world for that matter you have NOT called ignorant? LOL... j/k.
It is a FACT that everyone is ignorant on something or another.

 

You neglect to mention that we pay much less for fuel than the rest of the world, this is one of the benefits.
Granted, the military industrial complex and oil companies make a killing.

 

sorry, i guess i do. but really when i hear people say "don't leave or iraq will go into civil war", when they would under any circumstance. Why does our media and government pretend like religion doesn't rule this country, but people do?

religion supercedes intelligence. these people will not live under a democracy and yet that's what we're trying to build over there.

people purposely ignoring the facts and coming up with a solution is "ignorant"

it's like when people used to talk about hydrogen cars. If we were to get just 1/5 of the people to drive them, then our fresh water usage goes up by 1/3.

but people don't like to think about that, they just look at

hydrogen = not gas car = good

 

Nothing to apologize for. I never said they didn't deserve it.

 

that would be a great argument if gas prices went down since we went over there.

a few of the many reasons why we pay less is:
we are the largest buyer, therefore we get the best deals (i.e. walmart). & some of these deals we have go back a long time, remember we were the first big place with cars.

we provide security(i.e. saudi arabia) and money to these countries for lucrative oil contracts

our south american oil suppliers haven't come up with a cost effective way to make more money moving oil across the pacific, instead of just up the coast to US, plus they owe us a sh!tload of money, so we don't let them.

 

It's like this......This event was tragic. The 32 people that were sincelessly killed as well as their familys deserve our condolences and prayers. But lets not forget about the poor soul that was so disturbed that he took inocent lives for no reason. I might get flamed for this but I can't help but feel sorry for the kid. I in no way condone what he did let me just say that. What he did was a horrible and terrible unthinkable thing. But this was a kid that needed help. He was identified by teachers and law enforcement as having mental problems. If you ask me they could have done a hell of a lot more than they did. That kid was crying out for help with his writings and actions. The professors at that school that call them selves educators and proffessors did not do enough. I think there is one person out of this whole thing that did all they could and that was the English teacher that tried to get him to go to counciling. Somebody should have been monitoring a student like that. I also feel really bad for his family as well. Everyone forgets about the family of the shooter. You know that they have to be really dealing with some bad issues now.

As far as the media goes. The only media source I respect is Fox news. They quit showing the pictures of him and also the videos because they know that it is giving him what he wanted and also because it is impacting the familys of the deceased.

 

Everyone needs a real live scapegoat. I don't get that.
LOL... Fox news is constantly surveying and realized what people wanted. Has nothing to do with morality etc.

^Hmmm.... Kinda harsh? Sorry. It's all just my opinion.