Avalon Shows Dent in Toyota Quality
#1
Avalon Shows Dent in Toyota Quality
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl.../60501002/1041
LOS ANGELES -- Alan Seider has owned 11 Toyotas since 1982, but his 2006 Avalon likely will be his last.
He says quality glitches have bedeviled his Toyota sedan, which he has driven less than 6,000 miles since he bought it last July. His dealer could not solve the car's problems. Toyota headquarters stonewalled his appeals, he says.
"There have been significant throttle control and transmission hesitation issues," says Seider, 45, a computer consultant from Roswell, Ga. "I've isolated 15 different rattles in the body work."
Seider is far from alone. Internet chat rooms such as Edmunds.com Town Hall are littered with complaints from Toyota loyalists about the redesigned Avalon, which went on sale in February 2005.
The Avalon's launch problems point to a larger issue. To meet demand, Toyota has added factories in North America and thousands of new employees. Executives are worried that Toyota's rapid growth may dilute its quality standards.
Toyota and Lexus divisions still exceed industry averages in various studies that measure quality. Toyota predicts that the Avalon will score well in J.D. Power and Associates' Initial Quality Study, to be released in June.
But the quality gap is closing. And Toyota recalls have spiked in the last two years.
Every production line produces its share of lemons. But Toyota already has issued a string of technical service bulletins to dealers to fix Avalons on the road. Changes are being made on the assembly line. Toyota representatives acknowledge there are some teething problems, but decline to call the Avalon a problem car.
The Avalon is the Toyota brand's most-expensive car, starting at $27,355 including destination charges. The redesigned 2005 model was embraced by consumers; Toyota sold 95,318 Avalons last year in the United States, up from 36,460 in 2004. Avalon sales peaked in 2000 at 104,078 units. It is assembled at Toyota's Georgetown, Ky., plant, alongside the Camry and Camry Solara.
It's a car-buying axiom that one should never buy a car in its first year of production, before the bugs are worked out. But in recent years Toyota and Honda largely disproved that old saw, delivering nearly bulletproof vehicles from Job 1.
Now the Avalon redesign is showing that even mighty Toyota can slip up.
Kevin Clingenpeel, a 37-year-old insurance litigator from Fort Mill, S.C., loved his Avalon for the first 2,000 miles. Then the transmission shifts became erratic, especially in cold weather. The engine developed a persistent knock, which could not be cured by changing grades of gasoline or by using a fuel-injector cleaner.
"I pulled up next to a Ford F-350, and I could hear my valve train clicking louder than his diesel," said Clingenpeel, whose Avalon is his family's third Toyota.
Clingenpeel says his dealer gave the car "a wink and a nod" when he brought it in three times for repairs. Clingenpeel then appealed to Toyota headquarters to send out a district service manager. Toyota refused. Now Clingenpeel is looking to sell the car.
"It's sad because there's a nice car hiding behind all this," Clingenpeel said. "But this is not up to snuff from what I would consider from Toyota."
The Avalon's problems have drawn notice from Consumer Reports magazine, which has for years given the Avalon high marks.
While still giving the 2005 Avalon its highest scores in most categories, the magazine's overall quality rating for the car was average because the Avalon scored below the Buick LaCrosse, Kia Amanti, Ford Five Hundred and Mercury Montego.
Anita Lam, data program manager for Consumer Reports' auto test center, said problems with the Avalon cropped up in steering, suspension and body integrity.
"These are first-year teething problems. We anticipate the second model year will be much better," Lam said.
Toyota spokesman John Hanson called the Consumer Reports ratings "the sum of small irritations more than anything else."
But Hanson acknowledged that Toyota has been concerned with the initial wave of quality problems for the car. Toyota's priority has been to find and remedy problems, get the fixes to the production line, and issue technical service bulletins so dealers can fix the faults on vehicles already on the road.
"The Avalon is the most complex vehicle Toyota Division sells, so just by definition it's a problematic vehicle," Hanson said.
The Avalon's transmission lurch is especially noticeable in low-speed crawls during rush hour, Hanson said. Previous Avalons had problems shifting smoothly at high speed with high engine revs. Toyota fixed the high-speed lurch by changing software algorithms, but the adjustment caused a low-speed lurch.
The low-speed problem "is all software," Hanson says.
Some customers are voting with their feet. In Seider's case, he replaced his wife's Toyota Sienna minivan with a Honda Pilot. He doubts he will replace the Avalon with another Toyota.
Said Seider: "I am so disappointed in Toyota. I've had previous first-year vehicles, but nothing like this ever happened. Toyota's build quality has declined in recent years, and there seems to be nothing the dealer can do. Toyota has reached a size that they've lost sight of the individual customer."
He says quality glitches have bedeviled his Toyota sedan, which he has driven less than 6,000 miles since he bought it last July. His dealer could not solve the car's problems. Toyota headquarters stonewalled his appeals, he says.
"There have been significant throttle control and transmission hesitation issues," says Seider, 45, a computer consultant from Roswell, Ga. "I've isolated 15 different rattles in the body work."
Seider is far from alone. Internet chat rooms such as Edmunds.com Town Hall are littered with complaints from Toyota loyalists about the redesigned Avalon, which went on sale in February 2005.
The Avalon's launch problems point to a larger issue. To meet demand, Toyota has added factories in North America and thousands of new employees. Executives are worried that Toyota's rapid growth may dilute its quality standards.
Toyota and Lexus divisions still exceed industry averages in various studies that measure quality. Toyota predicts that the Avalon will score well in J.D. Power and Associates' Initial Quality Study, to be released in June.
But the quality gap is closing. And Toyota recalls have spiked in the last two years.
Every production line produces its share of lemons. But Toyota already has issued a string of technical service bulletins to dealers to fix Avalons on the road. Changes are being made on the assembly line. Toyota representatives acknowledge there are some teething problems, but decline to call the Avalon a problem car.
The Avalon is the Toyota brand's most-expensive car, starting at $27,355 including destination charges. The redesigned 2005 model was embraced by consumers; Toyota sold 95,318 Avalons last year in the United States, up from 36,460 in 2004. Avalon sales peaked in 2000 at 104,078 units. It is assembled at Toyota's Georgetown, Ky., plant, alongside the Camry and Camry Solara.
It's a car-buying axiom that one should never buy a car in its first year of production, before the bugs are worked out. But in recent years Toyota and Honda largely disproved that old saw, delivering nearly bulletproof vehicles from Job 1.
Now the Avalon redesign is showing that even mighty Toyota can slip up.
Kevin Clingenpeel, a 37-year-old insurance litigator from Fort Mill, S.C., loved his Avalon for the first 2,000 miles. Then the transmission shifts became erratic, especially in cold weather. The engine developed a persistent knock, which could not be cured by changing grades of gasoline or by using a fuel-injector cleaner.
"I pulled up next to a Ford F-350, and I could hear my valve train clicking louder than his diesel," said Clingenpeel, whose Avalon is his family's third Toyota.
Clingenpeel says his dealer gave the car "a wink and a nod" when he brought it in three times for repairs. Clingenpeel then appealed to Toyota headquarters to send out a district service manager. Toyota refused. Now Clingenpeel is looking to sell the car.
"It's sad because there's a nice car hiding behind all this," Clingenpeel said. "But this is not up to snuff from what I would consider from Toyota."
The Avalon's problems have drawn notice from Consumer Reports magazine, which has for years given the Avalon high marks.
While still giving the 2005 Avalon its highest scores in most categories, the magazine's overall quality rating for the car was average because the Avalon scored below the Buick LaCrosse, Kia Amanti, Ford Five Hundred and Mercury Montego.
Anita Lam, data program manager for Consumer Reports' auto test center, said problems with the Avalon cropped up in steering, suspension and body integrity.
"These are first-year teething problems. We anticipate the second model year will be much better," Lam said.
Toyota spokesman John Hanson called the Consumer Reports ratings "the sum of small irritations more than anything else."
But Hanson acknowledged that Toyota has been concerned with the initial wave of quality problems for the car. Toyota's priority has been to find and remedy problems, get the fixes to the production line, and issue technical service bulletins so dealers can fix the faults on vehicles already on the road.
"The Avalon is the most complex vehicle Toyota Division sells, so just by definition it's a problematic vehicle," Hanson said.
The Avalon's transmission lurch is especially noticeable in low-speed crawls during rush hour, Hanson said. Previous Avalons had problems shifting smoothly at high speed with high engine revs. Toyota fixed the high-speed lurch by changing software algorithms, but the adjustment caused a low-speed lurch.
The low-speed problem "is all software," Hanson says.
Some customers are voting with their feet. In Seider's case, he replaced his wife's Toyota Sienna minivan with a Honda Pilot. He doubts he will replace the Avalon with another Toyota.
Said Seider: "I am so disappointed in Toyota. I've had previous first-year vehicles, but nothing like this ever happened. Toyota's build quality has declined in recent years, and there seems to be nothing the dealer can do. Toyota has reached a size that they've lost sight of the individual customer."
#2
Some of that sounds like Toyota needs to take a cue from their little brother, Scion. Toyota Corporate doesn't seem to be too helpful when a dealer is stumped on problems... where-as after just a couple phone calls, Scion will usually send someone to check it out.
#3
Senior Member
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Scion Evolution
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Cucamonga, CA RT66
Posts: 4,402
Toyota reported today its best month ever. Stock up 3% on early trading. Got to be growing pains in U.S. I take comfort (unfortunately) that Scion will remain being made solely in Japan. I believe the Avalon was designed and is totally made in the USA. There could therefore be some engineering problems inherent in the design.
#5
I beg of you to please not group all American engineering to be of lesser quality than other countries. As an engineer, I know that the work I do, and the company I work for, is top notch. Sometimes things happen, it's unfortunate, but it happens. I work on machines far more complex than automobiles, but regardless of complexity, quality flaws can still happen. More parts are sourced from outside companies than you would think, and quality control is difficult, at best, to manage.
Not that it makes it any better for owners of products with reliability problems, whom I really do feel for. But like so many cases, the bad news travels faster than the good. I am guessing that the number of Avalon owners without problems is far greater than those with.
Not that it makes it any better for owners of products with reliability problems, whom I really do feel for. But like so many cases, the bad news travels faster than the good. I am guessing that the number of Avalon owners without problems is far greater than those with.
#6
Funny, I took my 06 tC in for sunroof rattle. The shops' answer? Replace the whole sunroof assembly. Toyota's answer? "Get the car for the entire day, use 3/4 tank of gas, and give it back. Tell him we're aware of the issues, and are looking for a fix."
I think they grew too large too fast, and a lot of the techs there don't like it, so now their slacking more than ever because they have more to do.
I think they grew too large too fast, and a lot of the techs there don't like it, so now their slacking more than ever because they have more to do.
#8
Wasn't part of the reason Lexus was created because Toyota dealers generally suck....
Toyota better be careful...."the sum of small irritations more than anything else." and taking that kind of attitude can turn people very quickly.
Toyota better be careful...."the sum of small irritations more than anything else." and taking that kind of attitude can turn people very quickly.
#9
Re: Avalon Shows Dent in Toyota Quality
The Avalon's launch problems point to a larger issue. To meet demand, Toyota has added factories in North America and thousands of new employees.
#10
Define quality. There is a difference between Consumer-Perceived Quality and Acceptable Quality Limits (AQL) at the factory. I'm for the idea of replacing the human workforce with robots but the robots are also made by people... So you can't blame the workers. Must be those engineers...LOL. The previous Avalon was based on the Toyota Japan Pronard.
#11
Originally Posted by TempleOwl
Maybe the US plants need to look at the Japanese plants and see how they operate to improve the quality of US Toyota made cars.
It's very easy to blame the actual assembly plant for everything. If you bought an early production Avalon and were not happy with how the transaxle shifted, who are you going to blame? The assembly plant of course. But the reality is, there many things that are beyond the control of the plant. Obviously the assembly plant did not build the transaxle or design and produce the software that controls it. Design and engineering are often the case with other issues as well.....such as squeeks/rattles, wind noise, ect. Is that to say that mistakes are never made during assembly? Of course not. Humans put cars together....cars are complex machines....mistakes do happen.
There will be teething issues with almost all new vehicles....Toyotas included. Most of the issues concerning the '05 Avalon have been addressed. Toyota is relatively quick about fixing problems and rushing those fixes to the assembly plants.
Toyota touts it's quality in a big way. As such, they make for a large target when something isn't perfect. You barely hear about the Big 3 recalls sometimes, and at times they are numerous. But if Toyota has one? It's front-page news.
The recall on the new Camry is an example. This is an issue that effects about a 1/2 of one percent of Camrys produced since Jan. In the world of automotive production, these are tiny numbers. Toyota could have very easily sat back and let these trickle in and quietly repaired them under warranty. But instead, they issued a voluntary recall...desite the potential of negative press....because they felt like it was the "right" thing to do. Yet it's all over the media....."Toyota recalls new '07 Camry!!"
My faith in the company I work for is not blind. But, as an insider, I have a different view of things than the average person on the outside.
Originally Posted by jrussell98003
But like so many cases, the bad news travels faster than the good. I am guessing that the number of Avalon owners without problems is far greater than those with.
+1
#12
I cant believe that people think anything made in Japan is automatically great and anything made in the US isnt. People here can make things that are just as good as anyone else. You end up with problems because they are all new products built in all new or expanded plants. It takes a while to get the bugs worked out. The more people you hire and stuff you make the more chance of a problem. You can get too big for your own good.
#13
Originally Posted by emiller
I cant believe that people think anything made in Japan is automatically great and anything made in the US isnt.
#14
hrm figures, my mothers new 06 rav4 is having issues aswell, shifter getting stuck and a/c dying(toyota techs have to send in a person from toyota corp to figure out whats wrong). mind you it has around 5000 miles.
#15
Originally Posted by emiller
I cant believe that people think anything made in Japan is automatically great and anything made in the US isnt.
just my experience.
#17
Originally Posted by Solarxb20
Originally Posted by emiller
I cant believe that people think anything made in Japan is automatically great and anything made in the US isnt.
just my experience.
#19
"The Avalon is the most complex vehicle Toyota Division sells, so just by definition it's a problematic vehicle," Hanson said.
I really hope they get the kinks worked out with the Avalon. I'd hate to think that Toyota's quality/reliability/reputation is going down. I personally love getting vehicles that have been out in Japan for a few years and knowing that reliability is near perfect (i.e. xA & xB & Yaris)
#20
Don't worry....Toyota will come through this very easily. Just becuase they are having a few issues does not mean anything. THey grew fast and now they just have to catch up with their size. Kinda like a teenager getting a growth spurt....they get a little clumsy for a bit and then adjustments are made and all is good....