TCgetonmylevel

I've been around other forums lately and a lot of people are talkin down on the tC sayin this and that and that the tC community is not producing a lot of high horsepower applications except for the handful of turbo'd ones coming out of shops.
I think it might be possible to pull 180-200whp out of our motor...that would definitely give a lot of other tuners a little run for the money...
Mine is stock except for my HKS axleback...maybe after intake, throttle body, if someone ever makes an intake plenum, header, bigger injectors, fuel rail, camcon, and ZPI head package??? Doers anybody got any numbers? dyno sheets? vid's to back us up?
Hey, the way i figure it, we are all a big family so we gotta represent when others are talkin some serious trash to us.......


-P-rez in tha DFdub!

__________

dex

just waiting for someone to make some lumpy cams to awaken this beast.

engifineer

Look at what most of them are driving. civics are WAYY under par from the tC unless they are modded out. Some are driving type-s acuras which cant be compared on a class by class basis. True, there arent a ton of high power tCs out there yet, but the car is less than a year old, so the parts are just coming out. So if what they say is bothering you, just look at it logically like the above.

Personally I could care less. I like my car, that is why I bought it. Price for price you cant beat it overall. It is torquey enough for a stock 4 banger, looks a hell of a lot better than other cars in my opinion, and carries toyotas reliability in the drivetrain. I have already seen two timeslips of 12 sec tCs, and that was right after they came out, so the potential is there. I dont mind having a more unique car and waiting for the parts to come out. Just enjoy what you like.

TCgetonmylevel

i feel ya engifineer, and i know where you are comin from but i really was just curious as to anybody running NA Tc's with some moderate power....oh well never know surely somebody is hiding out with some crazy amount of NA power!!

dex

noones gunna have decent NA power unless they replace our fuel economy/emissions friendly cams. you can throw all the bolt-ons you want at it and it will still be slow. you need more air/fuel to make that power and unless your going FI, replacing the cams is the only thing thats gunna help you in any measurable degree.

hahaitzskippy

i agree with DEX but you can squeeze power of this engien without changing cams


back to the question of 200WHP na? yes very likely and possible.

my TC does 141hp.

I/H/E is wat 25hp? 141 + 25 = 166whp
CAMCON adds 12-15? say 12, 166+12= 178
higher compression pistons 10-40 hp? say 15, 178+15=193


right there your close to 200 whp. all theoritical but is very possible. the only problem with NA is, its more $$$ and you migh have to run higher octane all the time because not lik an FI where you can turn down boost and run on lower octane, NA you cant change the compressoin ratio unless u change parts


and all that stuff i mentioned up there is roughly about

200 I/ 350 H/ 250 E (custom made)
350 CAMCON
110 per piston = 440

total = 1590

IMO

SlowRebel

The car has not been out long and theres a LOT left on the table for these cars. I have a feeling theres a LOTTA hp and tq missing due to the stock tune cause of emissions and EPA standards and theres is very little out tuning wise for the tC. A lot of these turbo cars are running stock ECMs with some sort of piggyback Im sure that only allows MINIMAL tuning.

I think it would take very little to put a tC at 200hp N/A but I am new to the imports Im mainly from domestic side. The basics of letting the motor BREATH i think could easily put the tC near 160-170 mark with a good tune behind it.

TCgetonmylevel

al of that sounds right...and apparently the camcon (supposedly) can give even better benefits with bolt-ons already on the motor...stock it can squeeze out numbers that toyota was being stingy with...i cant wait to play with my motor a little bit...

i am kind of a honda closet fan, i'm all bout the ITR and its stock 190hp and its SCCA abilities....i believe 190-200horses is plenty to have fun with...and i also think that if the Tc could be tuned to produce these numbers along with some intelligent well thought out suspension mods, this car could be a true performer at the track......Not exactly a drag car but it would be a clean, sporty, clawing beast with a little grunt on it...i really cant wait to see some results...

thanks for all your responses!

blackheart

I have nothing more than an Weapon-R CAI and I run 15.42 in the 1/4 mile cosistantly. The tC is a great car with potential. The only civic that has hung with me was a 2004 SI. RSX-S were running 16. sec. The ralliart lancer and SE-R spec-v sentra were running 15.4's with me. Just learn you car better, it has the potential.

blackheart

I forgot to mention the civic SI that hung with me was turbo charged

matty-tC

if you want to stay NA (for whatever reason), you'll just simply increase the efficiency of the air, fuel, and exhaust.

air is easy. replace the heads, intake manifold, throttle body, and intake... and cams/pistons.. but you say you don't want to do that..

fuel would be increased either via larger injectors or increase in fuel pressure with a tune to keep the af ratio around 14.7 and keep the timing up. higher octane fuel would probably be a prerequisite.

exhaust is just the matter of 4-1 header, and a nice fat custom exhaust from manifold back.

the majority of the gains would be from cams/head/increased stroke/pistons. but they're also the most expensive.

to do all of that will be about the same price of bolting on a turbo kit though. and modifying a turbo (or any forced induction setup) will give you much better returns for the $.

TCgetonmylevel

okay okay so obviously better gains with turbo, but come on, i dont think you would spend nearly as much to pull 200whp going NA route compared to turbo whateverWHP.....if you want to do your turbo setup right...and i mean RIGHT, you gotta have alot more dough than I/H/E camcon and heads would ever cost....but i understand where you are coming from....

MilTownSHO

I just wanna get it as fast as my 91 SHO and I'll really love this car!

hilow

turbo is constant problems. my friend has a turbo rsx this guy is under his hood atleast 3 times a week cuz either something melted or something went wrong. the car is fun as hell to be in cuz that thing is SICK but id rather go N/A for its reliability. theres always nitrous if used correctly youll be fine forever.

matty-tC

$3k will get you the ZPI stage 0 which is around 260hp (crank)

$3k in naturally aspirated mods will probably get you around the 210hp (crank) mark...

the benefits of the naturally aspirated is simplicity if you're not into forced induction. the benefits of forced induction (done right) is a huge increase of hp/$ and puts you in a whole new performance arena.

i have mucho respect for the guys doing all motor (and doing it right) but when you shove air into the engine (turbo or sc), you're always going to be able to beat the all motor guy (same displacement at least)

oldman

Matty you are on an uphill battle, the race track is full of guys that have added up the HP from their mods and are talking smack, how many will beat a stage zero for $2400.00 ZERO, NADA, NONE, ZILCH.

IMO a streetable tc NA will have a hard time at 182 WHP or 200 engine HP.
The list really is:
I/H/E/TB has had the highest vendor dyno at 163 HP or + 20HP the true range is say
15 to 20 HP
piggy back ECU like the Camcor: well I like the idea but I don't know about their proof:
https://www.scionlife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=65292

This is a car with header, exhaust, and premium fuel at 147 WHP. Sure there is a “gain” over the base line, but the question is why is the baseline so poor? Even if this was an Auto. Lets say the gain is 5 WHP

Raising the CR? Sure 11.0 and you need premium you should see 5+ WHP. Port and polish the head, you should see almost nothing till you get some big cams say 5 to 15 depending on cams.

Cams: I’ve done Jim Wolf cams and with gears you can see anywhere from 2 to 10 WHP. You can’t get much from a streetable cam without VTEC, low speed backwash during overlap causes a poor idle and poor engine torque.

Total it all up
143 WHP
I/H/E/TB 158 WHP to 163 WHP
ECU 163 WHP to 173 WHP
Pistons / headwork: 168 WHP to 178 WHP (with cams)
Cams: 170 WHP to 188 WHP
Lighten flywheel, a real UD damper: 175 WHP to 193WHP

I’m on record saying 182 WHP and even that was approached with disbelief by many.
Cost?
I/H/E/TB $1000.00
ECU $300.00
Pistons / headwork/ gaskets / no labor: $1500 to $2500
Cams and kit $1500
Lighten flywheel, a real UD damper: $600 buku labor
$4900 to $5900 for NA vs $2400 for the ZPI state 0

How does this compare to ZPI stage 0 on race day? Your going to get spanked. How is the power, sound, MPG, street manners? Does rattle trap blap blap tin can come to mind? Compared to the ZPI: silky smooth power delivery, complete stealth system with a performance inspiring whoosh as the turbo spools up.

Expense? The true expense is what I did with my GS-R: full NA route: I/ H/ like 20 exhaust combination till I found one I could live with, cams, kit, CAI, VTEC control, cam gears, lightweight flywheel, LSD, clutch, head work, valves et al, right and two sets of headers till I found one that worked, Type R pistons. Total above $5000.00

Sold the entire engine and header for $1500.00 (more then I paid for the core). That’s expensive. Most of the parts I had to buy in Japan and ship back.

If you can afford $2400 go with the ZPI, if you can’t then the low hanging fruit are:
CAI, Camcon, lightweight flywheel about 160 WHP, with no drawbacks, I’d yank the CAI and Camcon for warranty just in case for $1000.00 it is not bad. Once you go to H/E you add $700 more and the car sounds terrible IMO for 10 to 15 WHP more WHP to 170~175 WHP. Gee now you are at $1700 and 175 WHP tops the ZPI kit is starting to look REAL good at 230 WHP for $2400. What are you going to spend the next $700 on? Pistons for $600 with buku work and 5 WHP? Cam and kit which may NEVER come out? For $1500 for 2 to 10 WHP? OUCH. I don’t think so. So you will be stuck somewhere south of 180 WHP if that is what you want and can afford fine, just go into it with your eyes wide open. NA builds are cheap to start but EXPENSIVE to finish with. Nobody knows how this long stroke, plastic gear balance shaft, ultra thin timing chain, massive 4 banger takes to high RPM.

I’ve been racing street driven Toyota engines since the mid 70 starting with 2TG and 18RG, and have build many many many since.

Setarcos4131

I dont care what anyone says...the sound of a high hp NA motor is just SEX...although i'd prolly go Turbo...I can't deny my feelings for the NA

TCgetonmylevel

true that i used to have a SR'd 240 before my Tc.....many people probably didnt know that on this thread....and damn that car was fun, in fact i dont think it gets any better, RWD, turbo and power.......but it broke every damn day and it broke my heart and my wallet......therefore my Tc makes me happier almost everyday knowing it doesnt break randomly...........

In response to OLDMAN...I respect your whole entry, i read it in its entirety and i can see you truly know your stuff....And NA is cheap to start but expensive to FINISH...I know this....I havent even seen this ZPIstage zero everyone is talking about...what is it? a turbo kit with no internals included? for 2400 dollars? WTF? refresh me...

SETARCOS4131---YES a High HP NA is SEX!!!!!!!!!!

TCgetonmylevel

and god wasnt the whole point of my thread to SEE if anybody had a built NA Tc?????????????
god! Still Waiting...

TCgetonmylevel

okay so i found out what the ZPI stage zero was....i'm in love with turbo all over again......i asked my girlfriend if i could have it, she said i could if i put 2400 dollars o her left hand, i was like shiaaat thats easy enough.......wait a second, did i just get conned? lol