sp0t

I'm asking because I currently have a megan header/invidia s-pipe setup and am leaning towards the weapon-r, tsudo or the new mazzuri header. I want a header that will benefit me for power throughout the whole power band.. my current header setup only provides me with mostly top end power. So i just wanted to know if it would be worth it to get rid of my current header/s-pipe setup for a 4-2-1..

mattvs

you wont notice a difference between them. save your money.

toyota_scion_tc

I'm sorry I wouldn't call that an upgrade. You will loose some torque and gain very little hp over the 4-1

Sleep3r

Megan is the weakest 4-1, get a DC or AW! you pay for what u get

tcengel

Ok, none of you guys that just answered have a 4-2-1 header. Has anyone actually changed between the two?

tC9o9

you will definately feel some torque after you install this header.

a 4-1 header on this car is horrible because we have such a short rpm range, i would only suggest putting on a 4-2-1 on this car.. and i remember that you have an auto, so it should give you some of that power you lost when you put the 4-1 on.

toyota_scion_tc

You won't loose power from putting on a 4-1 header. A 4-1 header yeilds more torque than a 4-2-1. A 4-2-1 yeilds a little higher hp than a 4-1.

mazzurisuper

That is 100% incorrect. A proper 4-2-1 set up will always make more tq.

mattvs

Regardless of whether or not I had one on my tC, I am still correct.

Either design makes, on average, 10 peak horsepower/10 peak torque on the tC and switching between them will mean a difference of 2 or 3 horsepower...which is not noticeable. It's not even accurately measureable, as it's small enough to be within the margin of error on whatever dyno you're using.

So you have a header on your car right now. It's the exact same design as every other 4-1 header. If you want to ____ away another $500 to switch to a 4-2-1, go for it, but I guarantee you that you'll notice nothing different except a lighter wallet.

toyota_scion_tc

Go to the exact dyno on the same day do your pulls and then switch headers and do it again. I guarantee you the 4-1 yields more tq and the 4-2-1 yields more hp I didn't say one would make 10 more hp or tq that is just not possible. If you lay the two dyno graphs together you will notice more tq across the entire power band not just peak with a 4-1 and the same thing with the 4-2-1 but you will notice that graph with more hp. Everyone is hung up on peak it isn't always just about peak. I could design something that could make a peak of 20hp but at the same time it would degrade power across the whole power band to get my peak of 20hp. Its called the big picture. My Alphawerks header 4-1 design did only net a peak of 9hp and 7ft lbs tq but if you look across the entire power band on average I gained 10-12 hp and 9-15 ft lbs of tq from a header. With the exact mods I have I put on the stock manifold then dyno'd and put the alphawerks back on and re dynod. The temp and humidity were the same on the days I went. I made sure of that.

tcengel

Peak horsepower doesn't change much at all with bolt ons, but you can change the power curve significantly. I could care less about dyno numbers since they mean nothing.

Here's some trivia for you:
What does a 300whp Supra and a 500whp supra have in common?

You see, power doesn't matter much unless it's in the right places.

mattvs

A good start would be reading my post instead of just skimming.

Regardless of which header you choose, you could swap back and forth and not tell the difference between them.


Go to the track then. Run a few with the 4-1 and an aftermarket s-pipe (since the 4-2-1 replaces the stock s-pipe), run a few with the 4-2-1. Average your times, come back, and post them.

tcengel

I don't have to. There's a thread of header testing and dynos that shows a large difference in low end torque between headers. Like I said, it may not be peak, but there is easily 10whp difference between them

tcengel

You see the difference at 3500 rpms? If there's that much difference between 4-1 headers, I'm sure the 4-2-1 will make a nice improvement in that area.

So now, has anyone actually used the two types of header?

mattvs

3500RPM for which curve, torque?

The largest gap between stock and whichever one of those headers at that RPM is maybe 7 or 8.

Is changing the "7 or 8" to "9 or 10, maybe 11 if it's cold" worth a $600MSRP?


Here, I'll even make an attempt to answer your "question,"

I'm sure one or two people have spent the money on one header and bought different one because a magazine was paid to put their article in it. You won't find any comparison charts between the two, you won't find any before/after track times, you won't find any concrete evidence at all.

You'll find some 17-18 year old nimrod saying "OH HELLZ YEA I FELT A HUGE DIFF BETWN DEM, DEFLY GET DA MMW"

mazzurisuper

FYI, the price is a lot lower now, and you can even get my 4-2-1 header for $320 the same price as all others http://www.mazzurisuper.com .

toyota_scion_tc

Find me a dyno jet around this area and someone let me use there 4-2-1 header, I will prove the 4-1 has a significant tq increase and I will prove that a 4-2-1 gains slightly more hp but I would rather have a huge torque difference and and gain some hp then to gain hp and no tq.

tcengel

Hey guy. This has nothing to do with magazines or 18 year olds. Look at the loss of torque on the graph, it's obvious that header design effects low end power. I am selling my MR header and buying the WR header and it will only cost me about $250 difference. 10ft lbs. for $250 is not bad if you ask me, even on a boosted car. So again, unless you have experience, please stay out and let someone answer who does.

I also have a 1991 MR-2 turbo that makes ~350whp. I realize what your saying that all the boltons seem pointless once you have boost and realize how easy it is to make real power. That doesn't really fit into the story hear though. Some people are happy with a slightly faster and more fun to drive car. If a small investment makes that car more fun to drive, then why would you knock it? I think your the 18yr old.

mattvs

Because it's fun and necessary. Christ, if it wasn't for pessimistic _______s like me, this a forum would be nothing but a gigantic circle-jerk full of fail and sad.

There's no loss of torque for any header compared to stock on that dyno sheet. The bright green line is the torque curve of the OEM header. The aftermarket ones run just about parallel through their own curves, while maintaining a slight increase throughout the band.

The 4-2-1 design is not going to improve on that by much, and certainly not by 10ft lbs.

At bleeding edge best, you're looking at maybe 4-5ft lbs over your current header under 4,000RPMS, while above 4k is closer to stock. That, in my opinion, is not worth spending money for.

Sleep3r

its not just the amount of torque your getting compared to 4-1, people will get the 4-2-1 also because of nicer designs and better looking welds, as for mazzurisuper's header thats a sweet deal!