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Hey techies -- any downside to a light weight crank pulley?

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Old 03-01-2008, 04:59 PM
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Default Hey techies -- any downside to a light weight crank pulley?

Hi,

I'm looking at installing an Agency Power tC crank pulley on my 2.4L and have heard concerns regarding lack of vibration damping and/or crank balancing. Others have said the sole function of the oem crank pulley with the tC engine is just to turn the belt, no damping or balancing function present.

I know there are some forum people who are genuinely knowledgable about this engine, including actual Toyota/Scion technicians. If there really is a downside to replacing the oem pulley with the Agency Power aluminum pulley (or its like) I'd really appreciate the straight skinny.

Thanks -- Trevor

PS I have verified with Agency Power the tC pulley is indeed correct for my 2.4L engine.
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Old 03-01-2008, 05:29 PM
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Edit: See post under mine for correct answer
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Old 03-01-2008, 07:05 PM
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Balancing and harmonic damping are two completely different things. The balancing of our engine is internal. The harmonic damping is performed by the pulley.

This is the oldest debate known to man on the forums, and since the effects can take the long term to occur it will keep being argued. So rather than start the debate again, just read

http://www.yoursciontc.com/forums/in...4&st=0&start=0

and make up your own mind.
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Old 03-01-2008, 08:20 PM
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Good read! Thanks for the link.
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Old 03-01-2008, 09:28 PM
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Yes, I'm fully aware that damping and balancing are two different things, but I also know that depending on the specific engine, both functions can be reponsibilities of the pulley assembly. My question is whether the oem Scion 2.4L four cylinder engine incorporates either or both those functions in its "pulley".

Some have described the pulley purely as a pulley, however, if it's utilizing a damping material in some fashion, then that characterization is incorrect. At the moment, I'm understanding the balancing is taken care of internally to the engine, however I'm still not clear whether the pulley is also a damper (in which case, "pulley" isn't really the correct term for it.)
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Old 03-01-2008, 09:51 PM
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From the repair manuals (xB2)

7. Crankshaft
 The crankshaft has five journals and eight balance weights.
 The crankshaft is made of forged steel.
 The crankshaft bearings are reduced in width to reduce friction.
 Surface roughness of the pins and journals has been reduced to reduce friction.
 The balance shaft drive gear is installed onto the crankshaft.

8. Balance Shaft
 Balance shafts are used to reduce vibration.
 A direct-drive gear that is installed on the crankshaft acts also as a counterweight.
 In addition, a resin gear is used on the driven side to suppress noise and offer lightweight design.

Can't find any directly related articles though...
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Old 03-01-2008, 10:05 PM
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That describes the balancing side of the equation, but the issue of whether or not the "pulley" is also responsible for damping remains open. Nice if there were some photos of the oem "pulley" around.

From the thread referenced above, there is a tremendous amount of hot air and specific arguments based on a completely different engine (the Supra 6 cylinder.) However, this reference is very interesting:

http://www.yoursciontc.com/forums/in...dpost&p=298808
From a lot of expeirance building actual racing engines, building winning racecars and building winning and reliable race cars I can tell you that a solid hub underdrive pulley is not likely to cause engine failure in a modern mildly modifed 4 cylinder engine.

My qualifications are that I was an engineer at TRD many years ago, I was an OEM engineer at Nissan spending the last several years working on the Nismo project and am now a motorsports engineering consultant. I have been an automotive and motorsports engineer for 20 years. I also happen to be a consultant for the Jackson Dawson team.

On a relatively understressed near stock motor like the TC with bolt ons or low amounts of boost like what we will be running and I suspect what most of the people on this forum probably run, an underdrive pulley will not have any life treatining consiqunces for your motors. The factory pulley with a twin ring damper is primarily for wide band NVH (noise vibration harshness) supression from the engine and driveline. Removing the damper and replacing it with a solid hub underdrive pulley will cause addtional NVH but not harm the engine.

The engineering reasons are that an inline 4 cylinder engine has a short stiff strong crank with a relativly high natural frequency. The dangerous second harmonic that can cause damage occurs at an rpm that this sort of engine will never see, in the area of 9500 rpm.

Now the stock harmonic balancer is not tuned for attinuation at this sort of rpm either so the argument is somewhat of a moot point.

Now 4 cylinders that are pushing the limit with lots of revs, wimpy cranks, super long strokes, lots of boost and dwelling in the upper rpm ranges for long periods of time can benifit from a damper designed to deal with this sort of operation but our engine is not like this due to rules contraints and probably very few people with this motor on this forum push the envelope that hard.

The tC engine has a strong and stiff bottom end that is overbuilt if anything for our intended use. It has an internaly balanced crankshaft, It has a chain driven oil pump which is less like to break due to torsional vibration like the more common crank snout driven georotor type found on Honda and Nissan motors. Nothing is going to happen, not even in our road raced tC. Road racing is much more punishing on an engine than other motorsports. The engine is subjected to run times lasting anywhere from 20 to 45 minutes with the engine always in the upper ranges of its rpm limit. One race weekend is the equivlent of hundreds of 1/4 mile passes.

Some engines like the Nissan SR20 have to have an underdrive pulley to live at all under race condtions as the water pump cavitates at a low rpm. All SE-R Cup cars and probably most professional drift S chassis cars run an underdrive pulley. I can tell you that SE-R Cup cars are very relaible with engines lasting several seasons sometimes. The one in my car has lasted about 2.5 seasons and is still going strong. My personal 529 whp turbo SE-R has an underdrive pulley. I don't know of an SR engine that has failed due to a pulley. I know several guys that have had them for 200,000 miles.

The same goes for the VG, VQ, QR and GA engines. Many World Challange race cars use underdrive pulleys.

Is an underve pulley harmless to all engines? No it is not. Inline six cylinders when modified way past the simple bolt on stages will probably have problems. These engines reach critcal harmonics at lower rpm due to the length of the crankshaft, this is in the 7500 rpm range, an rpm often reached by a performance engine. Now a BPU Supra or other mildly modded inline six will most likely be fine but one subjected to high rpm for long periods of time with lots of boost will probably suffer. In this case , the stock balancer is probably not adiquate either. In my experiance with I-6 Nissan RB engines the oil pump inner gear cracks first due to crank whip. For serious I-6 motors I use ATI or Fisher dampers. Crazy stroked out B series Honda motors with strokes approching 100 mm will also crack their oil pump gears and racing Nissan KA motors crack blocks. Thse motors need to have the revs limited, dry sumps and other special prep to deal with vibration in extreme full race use in very highly modifed form. American V8 engines are often externaly balanced and it is critcal not to use a solid hub pulley not designed for this applcation or damage to the engine will result.

Our tC engine and most people's here have motors that do not fall into the above catagory. Rest assured that your engine will not blow up and die or have a reduced life in street and even racing use with these parts. Will you notice more noise from the drivetrain and front end accesories, yes posibly.

I would bet that every "expert" that tells you otherwise here has little personal practical expericance with the subject.
Also this one:
http://www.indiacar.com/infobank/tor..._vibration.htm

Another interesting reference, but more an aside:
http://www.aa1car.com/library/2003/eb10330.htm

This is an interesting reference, though it dates from 10/20/2000:
http://www.suprasonic.org/public_htm...atedamper.html
Toyota and many other manufactures such as BMW, Porsche, Mercedes all use dual mode damper pulley designs in all their engines.
My question remains -- is the "pulley" on the Scion 2.4L 4 cylinder engine also a damper? I've yet to read anything definitive, and I've yet to actually have the opportunity to examine one.
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Old 03-01-2008, 11:04 PM
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Found a photo:



This is from a Camry 2AZ-FE engine. It looks as though there could be a rubber separation between the outer pulley-ring and the inner wheel, though I'm not certain.

PS. I forgot to mention this referenced thread:
https://www.scionlife.com/forums/vie...t=crank+pulley
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Old 03-02-2008, 02:36 AM
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There is zero speculation as to whether it is a damper. The elastomer band in the stock pulley proves it. You can even see it in the picture above. That thin strip you see is the damper.

And I find it funny that that "TRD" employee above doesnt explain why the toyota engineers thought it necessary to incorporate a damper (more money) for no good reason according to him ;)
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Old 03-02-2008, 03:01 AM
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I personally feel that due to the fact that this is so hotly debated, it's just not really worth it, at least for me. Give it a shot and see what you think.
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Old 03-02-2008, 03:44 AM
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The factory pulley with a twin ring damper is primarily for wide band NVH (noise vibration harshness) supression from the engine and driveline. Removing the damper and replacing it with a solid hub underdrive pulley will cause addtional NVH but not harm the engine.
Is he not referencing the OEM pulley????
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Old 03-02-2008, 03:56 AM
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Originally Posted by engifineer
There is zero speculation as to whether it is a damper. The elastomer band in the stock pulley proves it. You can even see it in the picture above. That thin strip you see is the damper.
Actually, presuming that is indeed an elastomer strip, it is not in itself "the damper". Without the outer pulley mass, there would be no tortional damping effect. It's the combination of components that creates the damper.

Originally Posted by engifineer
And I find it funny that that "TRD" employee above doesnt explain why the toyota engineers thought it necessary to incorporate a damper (more money) for no good reason according to him ;)
That's not what he said. I would really prefer to leave the hot air in the above referenced threads -- thanks !
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Old 03-02-2008, 04:03 AM
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Originally Posted by car_ram_rod
The factory pulley with a twin ring damper is primarily for wide band NVH (noise vibration harshness) supression from the engine and driveline. Removing the damper and replacing it with a solid hub underdrive pulley will cause addtional NVH but not harm the engine.
Is he not referencing the OEM pulley????
No question he's referencing an OEM pulley, but it's not clear he's specifically referencing or including the OEM pulley on the SCION 2AZ-FE engine. Though I find the information helpful either way.
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Old 03-02-2008, 04:27 AM
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It would be nice to get a true response from an engineer of the 2azfe. I wonder if these aftermarket companies have a real answer... It sure would be nice to have some real proof.
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Old 03-02-2008, 04:31 AM
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Such an old debate, that probably wont be solved.

but me personally, for the minut gains you might get from it, compared to the EXTREME bad side effects that MAY OR MAY NOT happen. Its just not worth it.
Now if I was seeing it knock a half second of my quarter time, i would do it. But for the fraction of a tenth it might help out, is it really worth the THOUASANDS of dollars it COULD possibly cost you?
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Old 03-02-2008, 04:31 PM
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Got it! Finally, a definitive photo of the oem "pulley" on a 2008 xB:



So there's no question left in my mind that the "pulley" on both the tC and the 2.4L xB is indeed a damper!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm still hoping there'll be some input from genuinely technically knowledgable people on this engine. As it is, I've learned two baseline specifics:

1) The oem pulley assembly is not responsible for balancing.

2) The oem "pulley" is in fact a tortional harmonic vibration damper.

Based on what I'd been told, my expectation was to replace a heavy cast steel pulley with a lightweight aluminum pulley, and hence gain a minor boost in gas mileage, and a nice boost in passing acceleration -- no more ambitious than that.

However, given the "pulley" is in fact an harmonic damper, then it's not so simple. I have a long and continuing history of modest driving speeds and engine rpm, so it may well not make a difference for me. If the second harmonic is in the neighborhood of ~9500rpm, I would expect the next lower resonance peak to be around 4700rpm, which is still well above my driving rpm -- even when shifting up through the gears.

I would very much like to know just what frequency range the oem pulley/damper is actually designed for (4.7K?, 3.2K?)
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Old 03-03-2008, 05:37 PM
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Just found this good discussion on the nature of the torsional stresses in a crankshaft:
http://www.atiperformanceproducts.co...mper_dinan.htm

This article appears to be written from a Supra six cylinder perspective, but the interestng part is the included pages from what is apparently a Toyota internal engineering text:
http://www.suprasonic.org/public_htm...atedamper.html
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Old 03-05-2008, 01:10 AM
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Ive installed the Agency Crank pulley, and can tell you.. well worth it. Have had it on for about 8K miles, and still hasnt cause me ANY troubles.
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