xjamiex

Im tryin to build my motor. I want to increase some speed by doing internal because i don't want to go F/I yet. Is there anyone who is good with internal work and would be willing to chat with me every now and then so i can learn about it.

xjamiex

bump

jasonrs2

pm "tcpete". he has a very nice fully built block/head putting out good numbers. i think it was about 200 to the wheels. not exact, but around there. good luck.

xjamiex

PM'd him just hoping hes willing to reply.

xjamiex

bump

Burnin_ruberi4

hiiii, i have a good background when it comes to comparing diffrent engine configurations, with diffrent block assembley's and head combinations...
so i can help you...


I think what you mean by increasing the (speed), is piston speed?, rpm?, or simpley MPH? loooool, i love catching every detail...

I say N/A route is very good on our engines... We have lot's of dissplacment to begin with...

SePaTc

wow. okay. well, do you PLAN on eventually boosting or not? that is the first thing u need to figure out.

if so, then you would not be allmotor. depending on how much you want to boost, you would want at least low compression pistons. stock rods are forged steel, so they should be fine. unless you want to spend a whole lot of cash and rebuild the whole bottom end (from pistons down, ie. short block).

if you actually want to stay naturally aspirated, aka. all motor (like i plan on) your first order of business should be an intake (aftermarket or custom) and exhaust, preferably cat back.

once u have them, you can worry about building the motor.

again, depending on how much you want to spend, you could rebuild the short block, rebuild the whole long block, try to have a custom stroker kit made, bore and sleeve the cylinders, port and polish the head and upgrade valvetrain, etc etc..

since i don't think u plan on spending that much, but just want a little more power (speed) heres what i recommend.

Just get the hi compression (11:1) JE pistons. with the stock rods, u should be fine. if you are able to, u might try to have some headwork done. Brian crower is developing cams (though i'm not sure i'd recommend them for a daily driver).

once you have hi compression pistons, you have to run the highest octane fuel u can find. you will also probably need some kind of piggyback fuel controller, ie. Apexi safc/neo to fine tune you air/fuel ratio.

with the bolt ons (intake, exhaust, possibly header), pistons and engine management, you would probably be sitting around 200whp. imo PLENTY for a daily driven fwd street car. plus, with an all motor setup, you have instant power, no waiting for the boost to kick in. you should be able to give Si's and rsx-s's a run for their money, if not beat them handily. and you should also smoke many V6 sedans.

this is basically the setup i'm going for.

U may also get a check engine light. not sure.

Burnin_ruberi4

What he said ^^^


But this isn't easy as it sounds... probebley would require more trial and error then you think, altough i think aiming at the 200 whp range is a bit low(we have too much dissplacment)... i think you should at least aim for AROUND 250 whp, and ABOVE 300 whp when considering a stroker!! these numbers were proven before by fellow 4-cylinder makers...

i will not get into specifics (as N/A is much a bigger issue then to adress it with one or two posts), but if your just looking to pick-up some speed then it's your reguler bolt-on approach + a bump in compression + a normal piggyback, personally i think 11:1 compression is a bit high for the biggener builder, as you'll need a suitable camshaft that will bleed excess pressure before the Compression stroke (not too much bleeding that you'll start to lose power, Nor too little that you will have detonation!), if you choosed the wrong camshaft decision (which is very hard to make considering you'd have to make a regrind because of the lack of parts for N/A applications), again if you choosed it wrong then evantually you'll be driving around with a car that will lose power more then it makes OR you'll be relaying on a high grade fuel that you cant afford daily and in either ways hating it all...

alot of issues need to be addressed like, camshaft overlap period, header dimensions(choosing RPM range), intake valve diameter to bore relationship(valve shrouding), as so on...

SePaTc

1. unless you have 50K to spend, you will not approach 300 or even 250 whp NA on the 2azfe (without nitrous, a la NA)

2.Camshafts "bleed excess pressure"??? Did not know that. :D lmao.

Burnin_ruberi4

1. 2az-fe is more then capable to reach these numbers... and easilly, it has the dissplacment to do so, just people don't try as hard, i see much smaller dissplacment engines get to that 200 + whp mark easilly... the 2az-fe easily have the potintial to outperform them in every aspect, but i won't talk details here and will leave you to find these details out...

2. Yes that's right... there's something called "Dynamic compression ratio" opposed to the normal "Static Compression ratio(CR)" that we all refair to... this "Dynamic compression ratio" takes into considuration, the "Duration" of the intake valve staying open, if you have alot of intake duration then less pressure will be trapped during the compression stroke, too much of cam duration can bleed alot of pressure out of the combustion chamber... there must be a balance between CR and Camshaft duration..

Here read this article to understand >>> http://www.team-integra.net/sections...?ArticleID=472... it is written by people who take natural aspiration too seriosley... in the end i hope you learn a thing or two

3min3m2

yeah, our engines have a lot of restrictive parts from the factory....a complete exhaust and intake(including intake manifold, if you can find one and get it installed) would actually yield a decent amount of power, if coupled with a cam upgrade.

simple engine building-if a 4.8L V8 can make over 600whp, why cant a 2.4L I-4 make 300whp??

Burnin_ruberi4

Yes exactley, there's no reason our engines won't make the power... it just requires some manpower and the patiance for trial and error...

SePaTc

not to be rude, but, how old are u...18??? :D i've been building and working on cars since before you could drive. i don't need to read your article, theres nothing in it i don't know. i don't know why kids on here have to come off so cocky like they're gods gift to the forums... i've been doing this way longer than you buddy.

1. i never said the 2az fe is incapable of making 300whp NA. I said it would take about 50K of custom/one-off parts. (ie. there are NO "off the shelf " parts available right now for the tc that would net you 300whp NA...barely 200-225) obviously, if b16s can make that much power NA (race prepped b series NA motors push 300+), then a 2.4L could too. but the only part of the actual 2azfe motor that would be retained would be the short block, which would likely need to be bored and sleeved anyway. You would need custom internals, head and manifolds, TB, and obviously standalone, in addition to the BPUs. what you would be left with after the build would be a full race motor, and wouldn't resemble the 2azfe in any way, except that the block would still be in the same shape, and made of aluminum. Kindof like calling the 2jz scion sponsored drag cars "Tc's"....

I'm well aware of tc drag racer Leslie durst, who runs an allmotor 2azfe tc sporting around 300 whp. but her car is a pro sponsored race car with probably about 50K into the engine. i never said it wasn't possible to make 300whp out of a 2.4L block, just that NO ONE (without pro sponsorship or rich parents) on this forum will ever approach that. so we can stop arguing about that now.

2.CAMS do not bleed pressure, valves do.

"intake valve closure (sealing the cylinder) always takes place after BDC, which causes some of the intake charge to be compressed backwards out of the cylinder by the rising piston at very low speeds"

this is true with EVERY motor even in stock form. obviously, RACE cams have more overlap, and thus don't idle well and can cause roughness in lower rpms. thats why they're not really meant for the street. race cams have a desired/target rpm range that they make their power. the tradeoff is valve overlap/stinky, rough idle at lower rpms.

this is why its not really recommended to regrind your stock cams. best to buy cams from a reputable company like Brian Crower, who has spent a lot of time in R&D perfecting them.

kungpaosamuraiii

Not to mention that our engines are way undersquare and to make NA power you really need to wring the engine out. I'm guessing 7500 RPM is about a good place to make good NA power. It's just that at that speed your mean piston speed is going to be 24 m/s. By comparison, stock is 20 m/s and NASCAR often runs 25 m/s.

Even after you clean up the intake/exhaust tract, you're not going to be combusting enough fuel with air at stock redline; you'd have to force more air in. Then again, that'd be forced induction.

A big power NA 2AZ is going to need some seriously buff internals. Not much wears on an engine faster than raising the RPM too high.

SePaTc

and don't forget the most important.... $$$$! HP doesn't grow on trees!

and oh yeah, it would be incredibly not street legal.

SePaTc

right right, i forgot about the less the ideal non-square engine design too....

okay, so we destroke it (bring up the redline), ITB's (let in as much air as we need) 12:1 pistons (compress more air, make more power), at least 550cc injectors (more air, more fuel) , fuel pump, rebuilt head and valvetrain, cams, 103 octane, and more electronics than kennedy space center.

but yeah....its possible

draxcaliber

now this is interesting!

FuN_b0x408

so basically bolt ons are the best upgrades if you want more power and still have a reliable daily driven car

xjamiex

well some engine work are safe because your building it to be stronger right?

SePaTc

once you raise the compression ratio (via. hi comp pistons or FI) you are increasing stress and wear on the engine and reducing the life expectancy of your engine and parts. higher compression requires more fuel to avoid detonation, causes higher operating temps, and in general just increases piston speed and makes the engine work harder. All of these factors could result in damage to your engine.

that said, a properly designed and built forced induction or hi compression NA street motor theoretically should be just as reliable and "safe" as stock.

bolt ons or Basic Performance Upgrades (BPU) like I/H/E are ways to eliminate restrictive factory parts and replace them with parts that perform better. Generally speaking, they are very safe/reliable, and will make your engine breathe better, and squeeze out more hi end HP (possibly while sacraficing some low range tq). they are not generally regarded as "power adders", as they do nothing to change compression ratio and thus the amount of air/fuel mixture being consumed. For the money, its really a toss up. if you are strictly looking for power (not looks, sound, etc..) then you won't be satisfied with the gains (on a [edit: NA] 4 cylinder) from bolt ons.