New fuel control option OPEN-LOOP 3
11-22-2006, 04:27 PM
#27
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Originally Posted by Garage1217
So do any of the in know tuners such as Dezod have any input on this..? I find it very interesting you can lock the map from self adjusting...
The only thing I think this trick does is that it locks the ECU into open-loop so it CAN'T adjust. Very useful for tuning with e-manage, because if the ECU is bobbing back and forth from open to closed, it's harder to believe what your gauges are telling you. Is that 13.5 AFR at 3000rpm to be believed? Or is the ECU trying to make changes? That sort of thing.
11-22-2006, 04:40 PM
#28
Agreed. Also yes, best thing for a tuner to do is bring good or bad info to the public about a mod when it becomes common knowledge. I would expect nothing less from a good company. However when it is not general knowledge, then a company has the right to keep it to themselves for a competitive edge.
11-23-2006, 03:54 AM
#29
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I use Auto-Tap version 3.00 for my logging and a PLX m300 for a wide-band.
I'm currently tuning with emanage-blue with injection and timing capability. I also upgraded to a PSI input by using a GM type 2 bar map that's wired to both my water/meth proportional controller and the emanage pressure sensor input.
There are actually (2) types of closed loop on a tC. Closed loop 1 used for emissions and fuel savings this puts you about 14.7-15.3 A/F. When you decelerate on the tC the ECU does a fuel cut and then keeps the mixture lean this is called closed loop 2.
You can keep the tC open-loop without a whole lot of hassle if you still are rocking with the stock injectors. No correction really needs to be done at that point -but if you are rocking with the stock injectors then you are probably not making that much power anyway.
What's the point of tuning if you have no management. Open loop on the tC is rich on the upper end -I have not tried the lower end under boost without an emanage-map. I guess I can give it a quick try when I get back from the Holidays.
I'm currently tuning with emanage-blue with injection and timing capability. I also upgraded to a PSI input by using a GM type 2 bar map that's wired to both my water/meth proportional controller and the emanage pressure sensor input.
There are actually (2) types of closed loop on a tC. Closed loop 1 used for emissions and fuel savings this puts you about 14.7-15.3 A/F. When you decelerate on the tC the ECU does a fuel cut and then keeps the mixture lean this is called closed loop 2.
You can keep the tC open-loop without a whole lot of hassle if you still are rocking with the stock injectors. No correction really needs to be done at that point -but if you are rocking with the stock injectors then you are probably not making that much power anyway.
What's the point of tuning if you have no management. Open loop on the tC is rich on the upper end -I have not tried the lower end under boost without an emanage-map. I guess I can give it a quick try when I get back from the Holidays.
11-23-2006, 02:11 PM
#30
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Well, I thought more about this and if I ended up adding 30-45% fuel injector duty while under boost from 2000-3000 RPM's I also added a litte more at 3500. This got me to the A/F that I was looking for during partial throttle boost ( mid to upper 12's) with emanage. This pretty much tells me that you still need a way to add more fuel to the tC even if you are operating in open loop 3 -You need a tune. There is no "magic" way of tuning the tC without loading in your own fuel maps.
11-23-2006, 02:18 PM
#31
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Scion Evolution
Originally Posted by ERIC-TC
Well, I thought more about this and if I ended up adding 30-45% fuel injector duty while under boost from 2000-3000 RPM's I also added a litte more at 3500. This got me to the A/F that I was looking for during partial throttle boost ( mid to upper 12's) with emanage. This pretty much tells me that you still need a way to add more fuel to the tC even if you are operating in open loop 3 -You need a tune. There is no "magic" way of tuning the tC without loading in your own fuel maps.
11-23-2006, 04:39 PM
#33
Well, I think that this is great information, but I would not recommend running around with your stock O2 sensor just dangling in the breeze and having it exposed to the elements for any amount of time. These sensors are very fragile and delicate, but also EXPENSIVE to fix. Once it breaks and stops reading, now your AFRs are gonna be pig rich and your gonna run a 10:1 AFR.....
I think this may work for a short duration in a controlled environment like on a dyno, but on the streets I would not try it.
Besides, I would not bother to adjust AFRs when not it boost. Partial throttle is where our black box shines and delivers all of the safety and security of a stock turbo car. You can fully customize your closed loop, partial throttle AFRs with it and be done. When in vac, there is no need to adjust anything from 14.7:1, except maybe going to 15:1 for some slightly better fuel economy.......
Very informative post and observation, but once you plug that sensor in.....2 mins later.........ECU relearns. We have noted this on the dyno time and time again. This Toyota ECU is quite powerful.
I think this may work for a short duration in a controlled environment like on a dyno, but on the streets I would not try it.
Besides, I would not bother to adjust AFRs when not it boost. Partial throttle is where our black box shines and delivers all of the safety and security of a stock turbo car. You can fully customize your closed loop, partial throttle AFRs with it and be done. When in vac, there is no need to adjust anything from 14.7:1, except maybe going to 15:1 for some slightly better fuel economy.......
Very informative post and observation, but once you plug that sensor in.....2 mins later.........ECU relearns. We have noted this on the dyno time and time again. This Toyota ECU is quite powerful.
11-23-2006, 04:45 PM
#34
Originally Posted by paul_dezod
Well, I think that this is great information, but I would not recommend running around with your stock O2 sensor just dangling in the breeze and having it exposed to the elements for any amount of time. These sensors are very fragile and delicate, but also EXPENSIVE to fix. Once it breaks and stops reading, now your AFRs are gonna be pig rich and your gonna run a 10:1 AFR.....
I think this may work for a short duration in a controlled environment like on a dyno, but on the streets I would not try it.
Besides, I would not bother to adjust AFRs when not it boost. Partial throttle is where our black box shines and delivers all of the safety and security of a stock turbo car. You can fully customize your closed loop, partial throttle AFRs with it and be done. When in vac, there is no need to adjust anything from 14.7:1, except maybe going to 15:1 for some slightly better fuel economy.......
Very informative post and observation, but once you plug that sensor in.....2 mins later.........ECU relearns. We have noted this on the dyno time and time again. This Toyota ECU is quite powerful.
I think this may work for a short duration in a controlled environment like on a dyno, but on the streets I would not try it.
Besides, I would not bother to adjust AFRs when not it boost. Partial throttle is where our black box shines and delivers all of the safety and security of a stock turbo car. You can fully customize your closed loop, partial throttle AFRs with it and be done. When in vac, there is no need to adjust anything from 14.7:1, except maybe going to 15:1 for some slightly better fuel economy.......
Very informative post and observation, but once you plug that sensor in.....2 mins later.........ECU relearns. We have noted this on the dyno time and time again. This Toyota ECU is quite powerful.
Do no think you read the post correctly, you unplug the o2 from the harness period. Not unscrew it and leave it dangeling out in the open. That was the point of it
Second the o2 is unplugged it locks it into what is being noted as open loop 3 so it prevents any auto adjusting.
11-23-2006, 04:50 PM
#35
Originally Posted by Garage1217
Originally Posted by paul_dezod
Well, I think that this is great information, but I would not recommend running around with your stock O2 sensor just dangling in the breeze and having it exposed to the elements for any amount of time. These sensors are very fragile and delicate, but also EXPENSIVE to fix. Once it breaks and stops reading, now your AFRs are gonna be pig rich and your gonna run a 10:1 AFR.....
I think this may work for a short duration in a controlled environment like on a dyno, but on the streets I would not try it.
Besides, I would not bother to adjust AFRs when not it boost. Partial throttle is where our black box shines and delivers all of the safety and security of a stock turbo car. You can fully customize your closed loop, partial throttle AFRs with it and be done. When in vac, there is no need to adjust anything from 14.7:1, except maybe going to 15:1 for some slightly better fuel economy.......
Very informative post and observation, but once you plug that sensor in.....2 mins later.........ECU relearns. We have noted this on the dyno time and time again. This Toyota ECU is quite powerful.
I think this may work for a short duration in a controlled environment like on a dyno, but on the streets I would not try it.
Besides, I would not bother to adjust AFRs when not it boost. Partial throttle is where our black box shines and delivers all of the safety and security of a stock turbo car. You can fully customize your closed loop, partial throttle AFRs with it and be done. When in vac, there is no need to adjust anything from 14.7:1, except maybe going to 15:1 for some slightly better fuel economy.......
Very informative post and observation, but once you plug that sensor in.....2 mins later.........ECU relearns. We have noted this on the dyno time and time again. This Toyota ECU is quite powerful.
Do no think you read the post correctly, you unplug the o2 from the harness period. Not unscrew it and leave it dangeling out in the open. That was the point of it
Second the o2 is unplugged it locks it into what is being noted as open loop 3 so it prevents any auto adjusting.
11-23-2006, 04:53 PM
#36
Originally Posted by paul_dezod
Originally Posted by Garage1217
Originally Posted by paul_dezod
Well, I think that this is great information, but I would not recommend running around with your stock O2 sensor just dangling in the breeze and having it exposed to the elements for any amount of time. These sensors are very fragile and delicate, but also EXPENSIVE to fix. Once it breaks and stops reading, now your AFRs are gonna be pig rich and your gonna run a 10:1 AFR.....
I think this may work for a short duration in a controlled environment like on a dyno, but on the streets I would not try it.
Besides, I would not bother to adjust AFRs when not it boost. Partial throttle is where our black box shines and delivers all of the safety and security of a stock turbo car. You can fully customize your closed loop, partial throttle AFRs with it and be done. When in vac, there is no need to adjust anything from 14.7:1, except maybe going to 15:1 for some slightly better fuel economy.......
Very informative post and observation, but once you plug that sensor in.....2 mins later.........ECU relearns. We have noted this on the dyno time and time again. This Toyota ECU is quite powerful.
I think this may work for a short duration in a controlled environment like on a dyno, but on the streets I would not try it.
Besides, I would not bother to adjust AFRs when not it boost. Partial throttle is where our black box shines and delivers all of the safety and security of a stock turbo car. You can fully customize your closed loop, partial throttle AFRs with it and be done. When in vac, there is no need to adjust anything from 14.7:1, except maybe going to 15:1 for some slightly better fuel economy.......
Very informative post and observation, but once you plug that sensor in.....2 mins later.........ECU relearns. We have noted this on the dyno time and time again. This Toyota ECU is quite powerful.
Do no think you read the post correctly, you unplug the o2 from the harness period. Not unscrew it and leave it dangeling out in the open. That was the point of it
Second the o2 is unplugged it locks it into what is being noted as open loop 3 so it prevents any auto adjusting.
11-23-2006, 05:00 PM
#37
Originally Posted by Garage1217
Very cool man, that would be great to log what everything is doing in detail. No doubt though... the... black box as it is called is definitly the smartest way to go so you let the ecm handle things under partial throttle. Glad you brought it into the scion world
11-23-2006, 06:10 PM
#38
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 909 CA
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yes... this is actually possible. i have done this tuning method with my old car (Spec V) and it worked. i had help from the guy name gurov over at myspecv.com he is very knowledgeable car/tech/turbo fanatic guy... anyways... you actually have to unplug both O2 sensors since the 2nd sensor can/might still put you on close loop... what you need you need to do too is to unplug the battery first for 30 mins...
then disconnect both o2 sensors... Also make sure you have a wideband when doing this "tune". once you have unplugged both o2 sensors, plug the battery and start the car... monitor the afr... on cold start, it'll start at 13.1 afr then it will correct itself (ECU) to 14.7 afr... once you are warmed up, this is where you do your tuning. you must have another person reading off your afr while doing this... makes it alot easier to tune... anyways... check this out... this was from my old car...
this is when the car is warmed up... light on the throttle... as you can see its right around the 14.7-15.5 afr
in this image, i have to tune the low end rpm, since i am not turbo'ed, i should be at around 13.1afr... although, this is pretty close to it..
this image, i took out a bit too much fuel, i should add a little bit more, but this should be fine for now...
in this image, it looks like from 4K and up, its stable at 12.1-12.9 afr... this is a bit too rich, this needs a bit more tuning since i am dealing with a wide range of rpm, but i have to do it step by step...
anyways... this was done in my old car... this was tuned by afc2 and zt-2 to tune my car... i did get the afr i wanted, but i didnt get a chance to do a snapshot of it... if i can find it, i'll post up what my afr was after i tuned it... also, it took me more than a days of tuning to the proper afr i wanted. also, if you guys are wondering where the USER1 is hooked up to, its hooked up to read the voltage of my MAF... spec's MAF is very sensitive, that is why you see all those jagged lines... also, that can be smooth out by doing the boosted afc2 mod. but this is another case.. basically you have to use a GM 2-3bar MAP sensor, MAP sensor wiring harness and then you just have to tap the sensor wire of the MAP onto the throttle wire of the AFC... i think thats how it went... i have to double check... anyways.. once i am fairly modded, i will do this mod once more on my tC.
then disconnect both o2 sensors... Also make sure you have a wideband when doing this "tune". once you have unplugged both o2 sensors, plug the battery and start the car... monitor the afr... on cold start, it'll start at 13.1 afr then it will correct itself (ECU) to 14.7 afr... once you are warmed up, this is where you do your tuning. you must have another person reading off your afr while doing this... makes it alot easier to tune... anyways... check this out... this was from my old car...
this is when the car is warmed up... light on the throttle... as you can see its right around the 14.7-15.5 afr
in this image, i have to tune the low end rpm, since i am not turbo'ed, i should be at around 13.1afr... although, this is pretty close to it..
this image, i took out a bit too much fuel, i should add a little bit more, but this should be fine for now...
in this image, it looks like from 4K and up, its stable at 12.1-12.9 afr... this is a bit too rich, this needs a bit more tuning since i am dealing with a wide range of rpm, but i have to do it step by step...
anyways... this was done in my old car... this was tuned by afc2 and zt-2 to tune my car... i did get the afr i wanted, but i didnt get a chance to do a snapshot of it... if i can find it, i'll post up what my afr was after i tuned it... also, it took me more than a days of tuning to the proper afr i wanted. also, if you guys are wondering where the USER1 is hooked up to, its hooked up to read the voltage of my MAF... spec's MAF is very sensitive, that is why you see all those jagged lines... also, that can be smooth out by doing the boosted afc2 mod. but this is another case.. basically you have to use a GM 2-3bar MAP sensor, MAP sensor wiring harness and then you just have to tap the sensor wire of the MAP onto the throttle wire of the AFC... i think thats how it went... i have to double check... anyways.. once i am fairly modded, i will do this mod once more on my tC.
