Stefan_TC

Right. And I killed your MINI on a sport bike... You killed a twin-turbo 250HP AWD S4 with a supercharged 1.4L 164HP MINI))
I hope that everybody who reads that thread has a good laugh now...
Now, so you can learn something, what makes AUDI S4 turbo and every other turbo applciation much better than supercharged is the point at which have peak in torque:
in a MINI that's at 4000RPM in turbo'd S4 the peak is at 1850RPM...
Low RPM peak HP and torque is the key... High RPM peak is USELESS.

And why is that? Why exactly is 500HP useless?

More practical? No. cheaper and safer since s/c is OEM.
2005 SAAB 9-5 AERO has a 2.3L 4I single turbo, FWD and 250...
SAAB 9-3 AERO has 2.0 4I FWD with a single turbo and 210HP...
Why, from the engineering standpoint, is turbo less "practical" for cars like tc?
How come it is practical for cars like SAAB 9-5 and 9-3?

Back to your original thesis:
NOT TRUE. SAABs for example are known for longevity.
What are they not good for? Where almost unlimited power (how about 500HP?)
does not fit?
If something is good for rally is good for street. On the track: DISPLACEMENT rules.
What? Why?
NOT TRUE. Turbos are always more efficient (by design) when compared by output gain they are much chepar than s/c... It;s like saying that Fords are better cars than Porsches because they are cheaper...
BTW: I have never seen a S/C that doubled the engine's output. And that's typical with turbos in racing applications...

And that passage about 164HP FWD S/C'd MINI beating 250HP turbo AWD AUDI S4... like you said let's be realistic....

Oh, BTW, what cars did you exactly put both turbo and s/c? I am really curious now...

TeamMightyMiniz

As I said, we killed the S4 in Angeles Crest, it's not hard to swallow if you know the area. We've also killed Lotus Esprit's, M3's, lamborghini's and Ferrari's in these similar areas.
You relate your HP dreams to straight line racing.
Handling and suspension will rule on the road.
I am not asking you to believe the truth, you have a seperate agenda.
PS. Not only did the S/C MINI kill the S4... the NA MINI also did.
He ended up pulling over to let us pass, after 5 miles of WOT.

Again, were are talking about practibility and economics. Putting a S/C in a tC is a better option for 90% of the tC owners who are considering. NOT because it's OEM, I think the TRD option needs a lot of work. I prefer a twin screw blower over a roots type.
Turbo would be a novelty.

Joehnn

Does any one else have a headache after reading these posts?

Stefan_TC

I definetely cannot imagine an area where a 4-wheel drive 250HP would be killed by a 164HP FWD .... You must have been dreaming...

And I am to believe that FWD MINI handles better than AWD S4? This would be a first case where a FWD handles better then AWD )))
You guys should rule SCCA then )) (this is where HP really counts when you are pulling your vehicle from a 90degrees turn, not because of straigh line accelaration, get your facts together....) And as far as dream are concerned, just check the outputs on average SCCA vehicle, you'll be surprised how much turbos can bring into the table....

You are not asking me to believe "the truth", you are asking me to believe that a 164 FWD car would kill a 250HP AWD racing machine......... You are asking for too much, oh might MINI ))

Sure he did. He probably was afraid that the MINI will become airborne any moment...
Hey guy, S4 at WOT has 250HP and MINI has 164HP, how could you pass him????

Then why? Care to elaborate?

[/quote]

Again, why woudl turbo be a novelty?

I take any OEM application over a bolt-on kit by some nameless "inventor"....
I would take TURBO oer s/c anytime if it was made by TRD... TURBOs kill superchargers because are more efficient and have better characteristics....
MINIs SC peaks at 4000RPM while S4 turbo peaks at 1800RPM. You know how much difference it makes in real life????
Also, if S4's turbo peaks at 1800RPM where is the lag? The lag occurs with MINI since it peaks at 4000 and obviously it takes engine more to get to 4000RPMs than to 1800RPMs...

Again, urban legends live..........
BTW. So what where the cars you put both turbos and supercharges as you said before??? )))

Stefan_TC

Joehnn, maybe you do but in the same time maybe you learn something.
Especially sceptical approach to any unsubstantiated claims...

Sure I can tell you that I race a LAMBO on my mountain bike, but do you have to believe it?

TeamMightyMiniz

It's funny how thick your head is concerning the S4 vs 3 MINI's.

The guy driving the S4 stopped to talk to us afterwards and ask the SAME questions you are basing your arguements on.
Fact, we outhandled him and the road. His tank was to heavy. His Hp was fine between corners and turns. This is where he lost and we won. It's not hard to fathom... well for one person it seems to be

We threw a turbo in a MINI.
The Mini comes in 2 models, S/C and No S/C

The MCS - 164
the MC - 115

We've witnessed a supercharger in a 350z and a Vette Z06

jrv2000

OK guys, i have been monitoring this argument for a while, and the fact of the matter is that you can have all of the hp in the world, but if you cant handle it, (use it to your advantage) it is of no use.

I have a VIDEO to back up my point. Go to...

http://www.carfreaks.net/cf-films?offset=4

and download the first video on the left. It is a race on a track of a stock M3, vs a turbo M3 with 600 hp. It basically shows that sure the stock M3 gets left behind on the straightaways, but come up to any turn, and the both of them are side by side.

the point is that HANDLEING IS MORE PRACTICLE THAN HP for both track and street use unless your talking about straight down the line racing.

Hope this video helps,

John

TeamMightyMiniz

JRV gets it!

Thanks 2000!

Suspension is more important than HP
With great HP comes Great Responsibility. IE: CONTROL

We're touge driven...
S4 sucks in the Touge - FACT
MINI COOPERS do VERY WELL on the Touge

We had a MCS (on the SOWS) racing (timed) against some heavy hitters.... Double the HP and AWD's. Results... 1/100th of a second between them. MCS had a S/C - Challenger had a Turbo.
The MCS had Suspension Mods, Challenger had HP Mods and a few extra Suspension Mods. The Challenger, as stated, had over 300hp...MCS had a bit over 170hp. The Challenger was a very popular Japanese Rally marque.

AWD = HEAVY

MCS suspension upgrades also allowed a particular MCS to out corner a Porsche Gup Car. Granted the Porsche lead the straights... But lost any lead it had in the turns when the MCS cut INSIDE the Porsche's corners.
I don't know the HP on the Cup Car, but that again proves that suspension > HP.
Cup driver approached MCS driver admired the MINI and said "I have to get one of those!"

This topic has gone off...
This is all I have to add. I've said all that is needed.

So if you're looking for ultimate performance for your Scion, Start with suspension, then... if you are not satisfied... consider the S/C or Turbo.

Stefan_TC

It does. Most of the SCCA cars use 500-600HP to improve... handling.
You need to have that much power to pull a four wheel drive car out of a turn.
It is a different way of driving.....

I am a big fan of SCCA rallies since this is where you can really tell an excellent driver from a so-so and bad....

I wonder if you ever had a chance of watching the rally as since from inside the cockpit.... 200MPH on a track do not make as much impression as 100mph between trees on a narrow gravel road just on the ridge...........

Everybody can drive straighline, a lot of people can drive fast in circles but it takes a real driver to pull 90degrees turns doing 100mph....
Real drivers and real cars... This is where everything counts, driver's skills, suspension, tires, engine's output and some luck...

It is an unbelievable view watching these cars at impossible speeds pulling turns while in controlled slide, one after another.............

There is no other motor sport where handling is a important. That's why it was rallies that introduced both turbos and all wheel drive to motor sports (Audi Quatro, Lancia Delta Integrale)...

Im my hunble opinion that the most demanding and beatifull motor sport of all...

Stefan_TC

Are you trying to tell me that fron wheel drive MINI handles better than all wheel drive
AUDI? Interesting. This would be the world's first.
AWD also means handling and cornering stability...... Ever wondered why SCCA is dominated by AWD cars????? Do you think that because they heaveir or because they handle better then FWD or RWD cars???

Do you know a rally the was won by a MINI ))))))
MINIs are cool but you are daydreaming buddy..........

jrv2000

I know how this is going to turn out, because i have seen it before on the "I hate ABS" post. Stefan TC is going to always go for the hp gains, and TeamMighty will always go for the suspension upgrades. This is how it will always be, and no matter how much you guys debate the subject, neither of your points of views will change. I wish you both the best of luck with your cars, and maybe the two of you one day could get together on the track with your cars to put both of your theories to the test! If that day ever comes, please shoot me a pm, as i would like to be there to bear witness to the occasion.

Peace to all,

John

TeamMightyMiniz

My point is this.
For the Average tC owner who's looking for an upgrade such as a S/C or Turbo... In My Opinion... the S/C is the better option.
Of course I will praise suspension tuning over hp gains.

Stefan_TC

I agree 100%. For variety of reasons TRD supercharger is a much better option.
I also believe that without an upgrade to suspension and brakes any HP upgrade is pointless and potentially unsafe...
The first thing that needs to be looked at on any car, well before engine upgrades or lit cupholders are suspension and brakes modifications..

TeamMightyMiniz

of course... ... you could TWIN CHARGE a tC.

jrv2000

and how would you go about doing that?

TeamMightyMiniz

well you add a supercharger AND a turbo.

S/C + T/C = Twin Charge

codemunkee

there's a reason the next MINI is going to be turbocharged and not supercharged.

http://www.motoringfile.com/2004/12/...ange_in_detail

turbos are superior

TeamMightyMiniz

well, if you follow the MINI as I have, you'd be more informed about the reasons.

It really has nothing to do with it allegedly being better.

It is about economics and brand spreading. It's also going to push more MINI's into the service dept.

Stefan_TC

Of course turbo is BETTER because it is more effective. It uses energy that would otherwise be lost as apposed to supercharger that canibalizes engine's output.
The racing scene (SCCA) is all turbo and no supercharger....

Why do not you acknolwedge that the sport scene is dominated by turbo and not superchargers... Do I really have to copy paste any SCCA or Euro racing ranking????


Now, having said that supercharger IS a better option for TC mainly because it is OEM and covered by warranty...

codemunkee

i am informed about the reasons. it's superior. turbos make power more effectively as the other poster mentioned and are able to spool up quickly (the new MINI engine is going to use a twin scroll turbo). superchargers use to have their merits, but they've slowly been chipped away at by better turbo technology. if you want a supercharger because TRD is going to offer one WITH a warranty and better emissions that's another matter, and i can respect that.

as an aside, i did have cooper s and sold it, im awaiting the turbo version.