How come honda motors always have a significant lack of torque, even when they're making bigger numbers via turbo/supercharger...but our motors always seem to have the same, or more torque than hp? i'm not saying that we're better, im just curious.

 

My guess. Higher RPMs.

Plus, VTEC stickers add HP, not tq. Remember that.

 

The cams are designed for high hp, low torque applications. It's a marketing ploy. The average consumer doesn't know about torque.

 

Displacement may play a role as well.

 

Plus for high RPM applications, the stroke is reduced and that is significant for high HP but detrimental to torque.

 

shh





high RPM motors basicly. The displacement is pretty much what will give you your torque and engine speed will give you your HP. Honda's are made to rev really high and give lots of HP. I'm not quite sure why they respond so well to taking boost. Honda builds their most of their performance cars to be really good n/a and compete with cars that already have boost.

If I got the AJP turbo kit at only 8.5 pounds of boost I would be hitting 376hp on stock internals with the regular hondata reflash. One guy with the right tuning on the same set up and same boost achieved 411hp.

So pretty much displacement will give you your torque and engine speed will give you your hp in a basic sense. People can downplay VTEC all they want. I've driven many different cars with their systems and VTEC is by far the funnest one yet.

 

Honda motors have come a long way since the early 90's. Its true that their motors had decent horsepower and low amounts of torque, but improvements are already here.

If you going to match our motors with a honda's, at least look into the motors with a bigger capacity. Lots of hondas have a 1.6-1.8L while we run 2.4. Honda accords are known to have a 2.2L. Higher RPM's deliver the most torque from a honda.

Honda are great on turbo, but the Pistons are the weakest link when going with boost. Your gonna have to go with a forged set of dish type or flat top pistons.

Hope this helps any.

 

I'm jk bro. A lot of my friends are Honda boys actually.

 

u got a k20 swap in your tc or what i dont get your sig?

 

Cool cause my i-VTEC stickers on the side put down 10hp at the wheels and an easy 20 at the crank.

 

just wondering if the SC is smog legal, or if there are smog legal SC's?

 

I would imagine so. I believe the Comptech and Jackson Racing super chargers both are.

 

Torque is a function of engine size, in terms of displacement, for a naturally aspirated motor. There are physics formulas based on it.

Power, is not so tied into size, per se... but it is directly correlated with RPMs.

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With that being said, we've got to remember 2 things- One, POWER is what matters when racing... not torque. And secondly, the hondas we're used to seeing are not designed to win drag races.

Though the torque numbers themselves aren't very high, the torque curves are extremely flat, making them very usable on the road at a variety of engine speeds. It's just a design choice. Other brands may choose to go with a more rounded torque curve, located either higher RPM for power-producing motors, or lower RPM for "pulling" motors. Utilizing a more rounded curve also allows the manufacturer to achieve a higher advertisable number.

You can think about it this way... Either a motor will do better under varying load conditions (higher torque), or do better with a set load and varying speeds (lower torque, higher HP). So it's just a design choice, really.

Which is better? Personal preference, really. Both have their advantages, and their disadvantages. It is worthy to note, however, that F1 motors frequently only produce about 325 ft-lbs of torque from a small V8, but make that torque at 12k - 16k+ rpms, dishing out 900hp. More "honda-like" than "scion tc-like" in terms of powerband shape...

However, those little V8's would be fairly worthless for pulling a stump out of the ground, and extremely uncomfortable for daily driving.

Sorry if I'm trying to throw too many concepts, ideas, and comparisons at once. I can try to explain myself more fully if necessary.

 

Nope you hit it right on the nail of the head you said what I said but made it a little easier for everyone to understand.

IMO Torque is fun and power is fun. I like to drive on twisty turny roads going up and down hill. That's where my car is a lot of fun very rev happy and there's nothing like the look on someones face who's never actually experienced "vtec". It's not like all the other companies versions where it comes in steadily and you don't feel that kick. I use to hate on VTEC all the time and call them ricers and what not. I was ignorant. The first day I got my car I said ok lets see what she can do. I had no idea when it would kick in or anything. I put it to the floor and it had your normal 200hp engine accel. But as soon as it hit 6000 my head snapped back and I could see why so many people swear by it.

Is it an all powerful winner of races? hell no. Not in the bit. It is just a great fun system that lets you drive normal and then unleash the beast when you need to.

When I test drove the TC i absolutly loved it. I told my wife if you want the TC lets get it now because you'll have a lot of fun with it. She got conservative and decided to get the family car. Now she regrets it and when we get back from Iraq she'll have her S/C TC and i'll have my turbo SI.

The torque of the TC is a lot of fun and really loves to get up and go. My wife can handle a modded GTO with 480hp and 400FPT 6 speed so it'll be fun to race her.

Point is honda and toyota are really close and both stand for the same things. Honda just chooses a small displacement more rev happy type engines and toyota took the torque route. Both work great and are fun cars.

 

^^ Hard to see someone that owns a honda be so down to earth like you man. At least from the ones that i've seen anyway.

Let us know how that race goes between you and your wife

 

Good post. Some people just hate on Honda's for no Torque but its got a purpose. I think most of us had a honda before. I had a 98' civic lx by no means fast but damn that thing was great on gas. 5bucks did wonders back then. Oh and back then was 03'. Nice write up there 06si and sensai.

 

Thanks man unlike the recent swarm of civic guys that rushed over here I did come with them but I guess I just have more of a love for all cars cause I think every company out there makes something you can love. I know what you mean about the huge group of jerks that get a honda and think its a true race car. I think most sane people can see there is something truly unique about every car out there especially in our compact class. With the Si you can get a rev happy engine that is great for back country road driving or going on canyon runs. With the TC you got a very stylish and probably one of the most customizable platforms out there. If you want a show car then you can do that. If you want an all out performance machine then you can do that as well.

Quite honestly I've been posting on these forums way more than 8thcivic.com latley because I like the community better. Now 90% of the guys over there are kinda like me and arent fan boys. But that temp gut that came over here talking all that crap I really doubt was an actual diplomat and really put a stain on the rest of us. The way I look at it is we should all stick together especially though of us who drive imports. Toyota and Honda have a lot in common and both are very under estimated in the eyes of domestic fan boys.

edit: I raced my wife when she drove my friends GTO from a 40 role and she killed me (of course lol) but it was cool seeing her drop it to second and go.

 

Stroke is another key point in tq numbers. TQ is created by the downward force on the piston coupled with the lever arm (which is directly linked to the stroke of the motor). So if you take our motor, and destroke it, you will have a higher revving (due to decreasing the piston velocity per rpm), lower tq engine that creates its power higher in the band.

So, given that, a small displacement motor can still make good power if you can rev it higher. Revving higher is accomplishes partly by decreasing stroke. This makes for less tq.

But it is all about application. Having a higher tq motor is nice for some types of driving or racing, simply because you create more power lower in the band. Also, you can run taller and fewer gears with a high tq motor, meaning you can shift fewer times. There are tradeoffs either way.

 

Also, dont get caught up into comparing tq to hp. Tq is the physical rotational force an engine creates. HP is a calculated value based upon tq and rpm. So what is important is both the rpm range of the motor and its tq curve.

 

I remember teh first time I was driving and vTec kicked in, I thought I broke the damn car.