Dealer Question: tC @ MSRP or ADM?
06-20-2004, 05:57 AM
#21
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I just started in sales at herb chambers kia in rehoboth and I must say, Ive changed my perspective on dealerships. our FNI guy is so kind its weird, and all the salesman are actually trying to help, definatly different. although i can see now where pure pricing comes in handy, im not exacatlly what you would call aggressive and I hate doing the price back and forth thing, but either way, not all dealerships are out to get you!!!!
06-20-2004, 12:57 PM
#23
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Originally Posted by will
doubt it, it's not a high demand car.
06-20-2004, 05:00 PM
#24
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Location: Fowler Scion (OK)
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just my .02 cents in the car business,
salesman (good or bad stereotyped) do what they do because of what the customer does and pressure from management. we get lied to all day long:
"got to pick up my kids all of a sudden"
"i've got an unnamed appointment all of a sudden"
"i've got brain surgery in ten minutes" - and yes i've heard this one
they do what they do to sell a car while you're there because that's how they get payed. in my region, i've never heard of a store that pays on the holdback. we've got the second largest store in oklahoma averaging 150 cars a month with 10 salesmen on the floor. if it was split evenly and every deal was a mini, you've worked 260+ hours that month for $1500. that's a little bit more than minimum wage. and you're doing that being treated like a snake the whole time. it wouldn't be so bad if everyone just payed sticker anyways, no more shopping around. that is after all what the car is worth on the market. i wish i had the luxury of walking into anyone else's place of business and wanting to pay cost on a candy bar.
salesman (good or bad stereotyped) do what they do because of what the customer does and pressure from management. we get lied to all day long:
"got to pick up my kids all of a sudden"
"i've got an unnamed appointment all of a sudden"
"i've got brain surgery in ten minutes" - and yes i've heard this one
they do what they do to sell a car while you're there because that's how they get payed. in my region, i've never heard of a store that pays on the holdback. we've got the second largest store in oklahoma averaging 150 cars a month with 10 salesmen on the floor. if it was split evenly and every deal was a mini, you've worked 260+ hours that month for $1500. that's a little bit more than minimum wage. and you're doing that being treated like a snake the whole time. it wouldn't be so bad if everyone just payed sticker anyways, no more shopping around. that is after all what the car is worth on the market. i wish i had the luxury of walking into anyone else's place of business and wanting to pay cost on a candy bar.
06-20-2004, 06:33 PM
#25
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I want to pay $18 for license, and what it actually costs for a title. Dealers make money by selling cars at MSRP, and not just a few bucks.
I'm STILL trying to find a dealership within ~500 miles with a doc fee under $50, since ALL it's paying for is ONE person to go get the license plates for at least 100 cars.
I'm STILL trying to find a dealership within ~500 miles with a doc fee under $50, since ALL it's paying for is ONE person to go get the license plates for at least 100 cars.
06-21-2004, 05:39 AM
#26
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Originally Posted by KrAuSeScIoN
Originally Posted by will
doubt it, it's not a high demand car.
06-21-2004, 01:10 PM
#27
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Location: Legacy Scion (FL)
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Have to say, I don't like ppl like George. Buying at Invoice, means u just screwed the salesmen that spent 4 hrs out of his day, helping u find the right car, and making sure that you were satisfied. In other words, the salesman makes almost no money, taking what is refered to as, "a flat". Which ranges from 75-150 dollars per unit, depending on the dealership.
However with scions, every sale is a flat, the dealership doesnt make much money, and the salesman makes even less. All this at the expense of giving you, the customer, a haggle free, pressure free, purchasing experience.
As was said in previous post, theres almost no markup in the scion cars, so in noway is the customer being "screwed".
However with scions, every sale is a flat, the dealership doesnt make much money, and the salesman makes even less. All this at the expense of giving you, the customer, a haggle free, pressure free, purchasing experience.
As was said in previous post, theres almost no markup in the scion cars, so in noway is the customer being "screwed".
06-21-2004, 01:15 PM
#28
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Originally Posted by itimebomb
just my .02 cents in the car business,
salesman (good or bad stereotyped) do what they do because of what the customer does and pressure from management. we get lied to all day long:
"got to pick up my kids all of a sudden"
"i've got an unnamed appointment all of a sudden"
"i've got brain surgery in ten minutes" - and yes i've heard this one
they do what they do to sell a car while you're there because that's how they get payed. in my region, i've never heard of a store that pays on the holdback. we've got the second largest store in oklahoma averaging 150 cars a month with 10 salesmen on the floor. if it was split evenly and every deal was a mini, you've worked 260+ hours that month for $1500. that's a little bit more than minimum wage. and you're doing that being treated like a snake the whole time. it wouldn't be so bad if everyone just payed sticker anyways, no more shopping around. that is after all what the car is worth on the market. i wish i had the luxury of walking into anyone else's place of business and wanting to pay cost on a candy bar.
salesman (good or bad stereotyped) do what they do because of what the customer does and pressure from management. we get lied to all day long:
"got to pick up my kids all of a sudden"
"i've got an unnamed appointment all of a sudden"
"i've got brain surgery in ten minutes" - and yes i've heard this one
they do what they do to sell a car while you're there because that's how they get payed. in my region, i've never heard of a store that pays on the holdback. we've got the second largest store in oklahoma averaging 150 cars a month with 10 salesmen on the floor. if it was split evenly and every deal was a mini, you've worked 260+ hours that month for $1500. that's a little bit more than minimum wage. and you're doing that being treated like a snake the whole time. it wouldn't be so bad if everyone just payed sticker anyways, no more shopping around. that is after all what the car is worth on the market. i wish i had the luxury of walking into anyone else's place of business and wanting to pay cost on a candy bar.
I'm an honest guy, and get the best deals I can for every customer. But when u force someone to sell u a car at invoice, b/c you feel you should pay the same price the dealership payed for the car, your pretty much stealing food, right off their plate.
...or to put it the way a sales associate of mine put it, while dealing with an unreasonible customer:
"Why don't you just stick a gun to my head, and steal the car?!"
06-21-2004, 02:43 PM
#29
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For the record George, the average "front gross" on the Toyota line is between $800 and $1200 including HB, depending on the month. That's well above the $650 we get on the Scion.
You never cease to amaze me George. I actually feel sorry for you. You always seem so terribly unhappy and angry. I know a lot of people like you and I don't know how they do it. Life is too short to worry about the things you stress over.
You never cease to amaze me George. I actually feel sorry for you. You always seem so terribly unhappy and angry. I know a lot of people like you and I don't know how they do it. Life is too short to worry about the things you stress over.
06-21-2004, 03:19 PM
#31
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Originally Posted by DibujoB
People like Verone, Rich, Rick, Shannon, myself and just about every other salesman who cares enough to post on this forum bust our asses to give our customers as positive an experience possible. If I have a customer who is unhappy I take it personally and I do what I can to correct the problem.
06-21-2004, 05:03 PM
#33
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wow ... ah, guys I'm sorry this turned heated, and salemen bashing is taking place.
That was not my intention.
Anyway,
When I go to buy my tC, I will pay MSRP out the door, meaning all taxes, tags, fees, etc. will be included at MSRP. No suprises. If the dealer won't accept that I will walk.
Guys, that is what makes this country great. If you don't like the deal, leave and try another dealer... or you change your offer.
They may not accept your deal the day the car hits the street, or even two months later. You may be stuck waiting several months, or walk out of many deals, but the bottom line is it is your choice.
When I bought my Jeep Liberty, I almost left the lot for a suprise $50, but the saleman decided he wanted the sale that day, and ate the $50, I turned the car off and went back inside.
The choice is yours, whether you are the salesman or the customer, no one is holding a gun to you (unless you are buying the car black market).
That was not my intention.
Anyway,
When I go to buy my tC, I will pay MSRP out the door, meaning all taxes, tags, fees, etc. will be included at MSRP. No suprises. If the dealer won't accept that I will walk.
Guys, that is what makes this country great. If you don't like the deal, leave and try another dealer... or you change your offer.
They may not accept your deal the day the car hits the street, or even two months later. You may be stuck waiting several months, or walk out of many deals, but the bottom line is it is your choice.
When I bought my Jeep Liberty, I almost left the lot for a suprise $50, but the saleman decided he wanted the sale that day, and ate the $50, I turned the car off and went back inside.
The choice is yours, whether you are the salesman or the customer, no one is holding a gun to you (unless you are buying the car black market).
06-21-2004, 05:31 PM
#34
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Location: Legacy Scion (FL)
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Anyway,
When I go to buy my tC, I will pay MSRP out the door, meaning all taxes, tags, fees, etc. will be included at MSRP. No suprises. If the dealer won't accept that I will walk.
When I go to buy my tC, I will pay MSRP out the door, meaning all taxes, tags, fees, etc. will be included at MSRP. No suprises. If the dealer won't accept that I will walk.
____ even my used car manager had to pay Tax, tag, and title on the tC he preordered from us.
06-21-2004, 05:34 PM
#35
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Originally Posted by CU_rob
Anyway,
When I go to buy my tC, I will pay MSRP out the door, meaning all taxes, tags, fees, etc. will be included at MSRP. No suprises. If the dealer won't accept that I will walk.
When I go to buy my tC, I will pay MSRP out the door, meaning all taxes, tags, fees, etc. will be included at MSRP. No suprises. If the dealer won't accept that I will walk.
What dealership would want to not only lose money selling you a car but also lose 30% of their allocation? Not many I would imagine.
Face it, the Scion is a great deal as is. The government makes more on tax than the dealership makes in profit, and the salesman is going to walk away with about $100.
06-21-2004, 05:53 PM
#36
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: CO
Posts: 7
Who thinks this way?
George,
Just one question. What is it that you do for a living? I'd sure like to know.
I'm not sure what you do, but undoubtedly it does not directly involve sales or profit considerations. I'd like to remind you that while what car dealerships do may not be the most glamorous or rewarding business on earth (like building bridges or being a farmer or something where you can feel really good about making the world a better place), we are at the tip of a spear that is the auto industry. Undoubtedly, your business is in some way supportive of or dependant upon the auto industry (nearly everthing is -- you can't really do anything in America without a car, and a tremendous number of companies do business with a major manufacturer or a supplier of a manufacturer, or a supplier of a supplier, etc.)
Based on the opinions you have voiced, it is obvious you have more than an intellectual interest in this topic. You genuinely believe that car dealers and car salesman are "bad". You probably have some personal experience with this. You have my sympathy. However, your personal experience has tainted your otherwise useful information. You are not correct about Scions -- in fact I don't think anyone has it 100% right yet. Currently, the cars are not very profitable. We don't have holdback. Our mark-up is very skinny, compared to the rest of the vehicles Toyota sells us, yet our costs are the same. Think about it George -- if you invested $13,000 of borrowed money (at about 7% APR floor plan, industry average), would you settle for a 5% return ($650 markup) in 30 days? I'm sure YOU can do that math, but for those of us out there that had to figure it out, that's about $575 profit. Take out $100 for a salesperson commision, $80 for document prep and delivery (our actual cost), and about $300 for advertising (industry average cost), and you end up with $95.
If you'll let me borrow $13,000 from you in exchange for $13,095 back to you in 30 days, please email me immediately.
I know this isn't fair, becuase you obviously don't understand the intracacies of our business, and I am presenting information to you that you have no way of knowing. For that I apologize. It's just that when an un-informed person presents themselves as having an informed opinion, it really irritates me.
So, in closing, your scathing perspective on the part of the auto business that actually sells the cars that you either help make or need to conduct business is grossly unfair. I don't ask that you like the car business, merely that you respect it.
Just one question. What is it that you do for a living? I'd sure like to know.
I'm not sure what you do, but undoubtedly it does not directly involve sales or profit considerations. I'd like to remind you that while what car dealerships do may not be the most glamorous or rewarding business on earth (like building bridges or being a farmer or something where you can feel really good about making the world a better place), we are at the tip of a spear that is the auto industry. Undoubtedly, your business is in some way supportive of or dependant upon the auto industry (nearly everthing is -- you can't really do anything in America without a car, and a tremendous number of companies do business with a major manufacturer or a supplier of a manufacturer, or a supplier of a supplier, etc.)
Based on the opinions you have voiced, it is obvious you have more than an intellectual interest in this topic. You genuinely believe that car dealers and car salesman are "bad". You probably have some personal experience with this. You have my sympathy. However, your personal experience has tainted your otherwise useful information. You are not correct about Scions -- in fact I don't think anyone has it 100% right yet. Currently, the cars are not very profitable. We don't have holdback. Our mark-up is very skinny, compared to the rest of the vehicles Toyota sells us, yet our costs are the same. Think about it George -- if you invested $13,000 of borrowed money (at about 7% APR floor plan, industry average), would you settle for a 5% return ($650 markup) in 30 days? I'm sure YOU can do that math, but for those of us out there that had to figure it out, that's about $575 profit. Take out $100 for a salesperson commision, $80 for document prep and delivery (our actual cost), and about $300 for advertising (industry average cost), and you end up with $95.
If you'll let me borrow $13,000 from you in exchange for $13,095 back to you in 30 days, please email me immediately.
I know this isn't fair, becuase you obviously don't understand the intracacies of our business, and I am presenting information to you that you have no way of knowing. For that I apologize. It's just that when an un-informed person presents themselves as having an informed opinion, it really irritates me.
So, in closing, your scathing perspective on the part of the auto business that actually sells the cars that you either help make or need to conduct business is grossly unfair. I don't ask that you like the car business, merely that you respect it.
06-21-2004, 06:28 PM
#38
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Bottom line is that the Scion cars are "no haggle" meaning the buyer and seller are both getting a great deal and there are no magic tricks taking place during purchase. One of the many reasons I am picking Scion as I don't like to haggle and this way I don't have to.
Luckily for me, majority of my car purchases have been great. Of course, like everyone else, I drive out of the dealership saying "I got a great deal on that car" and I am sure the sales person is saying the same thing for their side.
I think if all cars were sold like Scion, then there would be a much more friendly relationship between dealer and customer.
Kevin
Luckily for me, majority of my car purchases have been great. Of course, like everyone else, I drive out of the dealership saying "I got a great deal on that car" and I am sure the sales person is saying the same thing for their side.
I think if all cars were sold like Scion, then there would be a much more friendly relationship between dealer and customer.
Kevin
06-21-2004, 07:37 PM
#39
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I agree with a lot that's been said in this forum (see my earlier post).. it's been nice to get a salesman's perspective and I'm suprised George hasn't chimed in recently. Scions has definitely laid the groundwork for an industry evolution.
...but fearturtle44 and other non-sales readers.. don't kid yourselves because the car pricing is only half of the battle. I'm not claiming dealerships and salesmen (I used to be one) are snakes, but there are other details to consider when making your purchase. I just want to give you a fair warning, because as a saleman, I know that we will make money wherever there is money to be made.
I'm not against dealerships making money.. that's how they fund competent salemen (as those that post here), lavish facilities, and keep the inventory rolling to help you get what you want.
Just watch out for yourself, the salespeople will watch out for the dealership and in comprimise both parties will be happy.
DO NOT EXPECT TO PAY LESS THAN MSRP ON SCION.. it will not happen now or in the immediate forseeable future.
Just watch out for those other fees (Doc fees under $100 are generally acceptable), such as warranties, excessive accessories (the price may be good but consider that you'll be paying for it for the next 5 year or so), gap coverage, excessive fuel charges (some places actually charge you to fill up your tank.. at 2.50+/gallon), paint sealant, rust-preventing undercoating, fabric protection, etc.. most of all be on your toes when signing the finance ppwk with the finance closer. They can and will pull every dollar possible out of you- and it's okay, it's their job. You have to be strong and stand your ground. Scion's already done that for the car pricing.. you just have to watch for everything else.
I'm still firmly believe this is one of the best pricing promotions yet and I look forward to getting my tC at MSRP.
...but fearturtle44 and other non-sales readers.. don't kid yourselves because the car pricing is only half of the battle. I'm not claiming dealerships and salesmen (I used to be one) are snakes, but there are other details to consider when making your purchase. I just want to give you a fair warning, because as a saleman, I know that we will make money wherever there is money to be made.
I'm not against dealerships making money.. that's how they fund competent salemen (as those that post here), lavish facilities, and keep the inventory rolling to help you get what you want.
Just watch out for yourself, the salespeople will watch out for the dealership and in comprimise both parties will be happy.
DO NOT EXPECT TO PAY LESS THAN MSRP ON SCION.. it will not happen now or in the immediate forseeable future.
Just watch out for those other fees (Doc fees under $100 are generally acceptable), such as warranties, excessive accessories (the price may be good but consider that you'll be paying for it for the next 5 year or so), gap coverage, excessive fuel charges (some places actually charge you to fill up your tank.. at 2.50+/gallon), paint sealant, rust-preventing undercoating, fabric protection, etc.. most of all be on your toes when signing the finance ppwk with the finance closer. They can and will pull every dollar possible out of you- and it's okay, it's their job. You have to be strong and stand your ground. Scion's already done that for the car pricing.. you just have to watch for everything else.
I'm still firmly believe this is one of the best pricing promotions yet and I look forward to getting my tC at MSRP.
06-21-2004, 08:19 PM
#40
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Yeah scions are not designed to be money makers with the HUGE MSRP markup, dealers make money other ways.
Service for example, if they can get your car in the shop more $ for them
You can finance through toyota financial, While I am getting the $400 college grad rebate I'm still paying 4.75% compared with the 3.85% I could have gotten with capital one, but the $400 makes up for that....
If you order parts & accessories through them then more money!
The other ways they make money is giving you a very low value on your trade in.
Or they can pull a number of other things, Doc fees, window vin etching, advertising fees, who knows what else...
My advice is this: Go into the dealership knowing what the msrp is and that is what you will be paying PLUS tax title & liscence. NEVER trade a car in at a dealer.... Don't buy extended warrenties, & don't try to think you are smarter than them, youmay be, but you have to remember they sell cars for a living you buy one every couple of years.
Service for example, if they can get your car in the shop more $ for them
You can finance through toyota financial, While I am getting the $400 college grad rebate I'm still paying 4.75% compared with the 3.85% I could have gotten with capital one, but the $400 makes up for that....
If you order parts & accessories through them then more money!
The other ways they make money is giving you a very low value on your trade in.
Or they can pull a number of other things, Doc fees, window vin etching, advertising fees, who knows what else...
My advice is this: Go into the dealership knowing what the msrp is and that is what you will be paying PLUS tax title & liscence. NEVER trade a car in at a dealer.... Don't buy extended warrenties, & don't try to think you are smarter than them, youmay be, but you have to remember they sell cars for a living you buy one every couple of years.