Well not us Toyota/Scion & Honda owners.

Personally I think very highly of the quality of these 2 (well technically 3) companies products. While Scion has yet to prove them selves as a car what will last a long long time their parent company sure has. And Hondas go for ever as well. But after reading the article on how much money car companies are spending on incentives, it got me thinking. SO they are spending millions and even billions of dollars to just SELL their cars. Where Toyota is banking on it's reputation of reliablilty and quality. Does that mean that the amarican car manufactures that are spending all this money to sell their cars KNOW that this is the only way to lure a customer into a car that is considered past it's lfie after 150K miles on it? I am currently driving an 1987 Mazda 323 Station Wagon. It has 160,000 miles on it and still running strong.

SO I ask this question. Are we (as humans, not Scion customers) poluting the earth by filling it with cars that just do nto last as long as they could? Why dont the American car companies take that $4000K they are spending to make the customer happy and spend it on making the car actually LAST as long as a Honda, Toyota or Mazda?

Or are we as a country so bent on getting "a good deal" by getting a bunch of money when we buy a car, that we just do not care how long it lasts because we are just going to trade it in after 2 or 3 years?

 

this opens soooo many topics. Im not sure where to start so ill let someone else

 

well the reason American car companies have to provide these incentives to buyers is because they overprice their products grossly. And by the American companies track record, a buyer doesn't want to spend the same amount for a Taurus as they would a Camry or Accord that they know they'll have less problems with and will probably last them much longer. Just my .02

 

I will give you one reason the american manufacturers are having such a hard time financially (which affects the quality of their cars)... and for once, I dont care if I offend anyone with this UNIONS!!!!!! Bullying, lazy assed, mob ruled unions... which continue to hinder productivity and break the wallets of american companies (I know people who have lost their long time jobs due to lazy assed unions forcing a company to overpay their employees without upping production, causing the company to go bankrupt). I am sorry... but when I get a chance to say something about it... I get on my soap box Unions get away with the very same crimes that mafia members have gone to prison for: Bully tactics, Protection money (they call them Union Dues) etc. We live in a society of federally regulated saftey regulations... there is NO NEED FOR UNIONS! If you dont like what you are getting paid.. go somewhere else, YOU agree to the pay when you take the job. IMO unions should be BANNED from the american marketplace in order to defend our failing companies.

Now, there are many other reasons for the US car manufactures going downhill.. but that is definitely not helping anything.

I will give props to the earlier Saturn models however. My other car is a 96 saturn with 170,000 miles on it with no problems other than one alternator going out on me last year. I know of two others with NO issues after 180,000 miles and one with only a couple of minor issues after 235,000 miles. Not sure about the new ones though..

 

Amen on the Unions part! Unions suck! Look at professional hockey, they didn't have a season because of stupid player's unions. Now how much money is the NHL gonna lose because of that? MLB, same thing, player strikes every couple or so years because of their stupid Unions. MLB is full of some of the highest paid whiners in all of professional sports, what the hell do they need a Union for?

Down with Unions!

 

i'm going to join the bandwagon and complain about insurance companies too, it's like extortion(spelling), they charge the hell out of you and get away with it because you can't legally drive without insurance. down with insurance companies and unions!!

 

Planned obsolesence... If they built a car that lasted longer, you won't be back as soon to buy another. Plus they are too focused on making a few pennies for some shareholders and keeping their jobs....

 

i agree that toyotas and hondas are very long lasting cars, but I used to buy chevy all the time before I bought the tc and if you take care of them they will last. My first chevy truck I traded with 280,000 miles on it, and the one that my mom now drives has over 300,000. Unions do suck though and some american car companies are in the ____ter and losing money. My dad started working for GM when he 19 and retired when he was like 51 or 52. Now they have to pay for a ____load of his insurance and other benefits for life. When GM was hiring all these kids that ended up retiring so early they have to pay so much for them after they retire. Just a thought.

 

well i know i'm not being a good citizne. i'm polluting the air evreytime i drive my scion now. i got no catalytic converter. *shrug*

 

so would you rather your dad not get those benefits, and i am assuming a monthly paycheck for services rendered? I dunno about you, but if i gave 32 years of my life to one company and worked hard, they better be good to me when I retire. Not to flame, I just don't understand the defense of the corporations, when its their fault they are in this position.

let me explain.

When the japanese manufacturers first came to america to sell cars, they sucked ___. But they spent huge amounts of money on R&D and developed a very efficent mean of producing safe reliable cars. The american auto manufacturers on the otherhand, spent little money (in comparison) on R&D for efficient manufacturing, paid their employees poorly and sold unsafe unreliable cars. So when the japanese figured out how to build cars like the camry that just won't die unless you crash them into a wall, it became difficult to recoup for the american manufacturers. Coupled with teh fact that their employees unionized to that they would be treated fairly.

Honestly, i know that if some of the american auto manufacturers go down, i won't mind. There are times where you need to kill off a hemoraging company, and the survivors get stronger -- its called evolution. the strong succeed the week don't. simple.

Sorry for this rant. I just can't stand the defense of corporations that care for nothing more than making insane profits at the expense of the little guy.

 

Unions? How about you stop repeating crap you hear on the street and do some research.

Both Japanese manufacturers and European ones are moe highly unionized on average than US manufacturers -- the exception being their US plants.

So it's the UAW's fault that Ford's poured billions into the black pit of Jaguar and Land Rover? It's the union's fault that GM decided to spend millions to build four completely mediocre minivans with no difference but their grills just to please a dealer network?

I hate to break it to you kids, but I work for a highly unionized corporation with a lot of significant issues. I sit on the management side of the relationship and there is no doubt that we are both at fault for our current predicament. This isn't a one-way street and if we can't realize that we'll never fix the problem.

You know that healthcare program you enjoy? You know how there's that oversight group called OSHA that prevents you from lopping off your head with a saw while at work? You know how you enjoy comfortably high wages? All of that came from unions, even if you're sitting in a cubicle.

Understand the history before you start spouting ignorant comments.

Unions are at a turning point, they'll either evolve or die. But you want to know what the solution to outsourcing US jobs is? Raise wages in foreign nations. Know how you do that? Unionize.

 

I have done my research.. and I was speaking of the AMERICAN unions.

I do have an excellent healthplan (better than most companies offer) extremely good benefits and excellent pay... and I do not work for a union (which is one reason I can get projects that take unionized plants 20 weeks to perform finished in 5 or 6). And some of the production plants owned by the company I work for are union.. so I have an EXCELLENT real life comparison. I have worked for union companies before.. I had worse benefits and was forced to pay union dues. Oh... and what happened to that company after they were forced by striking pinheads to raise their pay??? The company went bankrupt and sold out soon after. So all of those striking morons lost their jobs due to their union "power". The problem is that the union gives all of those lazy ___ morons a way to force the company to pay more whether it can afford to or not, and makes in near impossible to fire people who are not doing their jobs. So the poor guy who is actually doing his job productively loses out when the union breaks the company. I grew up around families of unions, and even with their lifetime benefits most of them are adamantly against the unions.. because they retired early because of union bs that destroyed the company. I am sorry.... but i have seen (and dealt) with this firsthand... so I have a pretty good idea what I am talking about and am not "spouting ignorant opinions" as someone so stupidly put it. All I see when I see people holding their picket signs is targets for my front bumper

And we have OSHA now... which dissolves the need for Unions to drive safety.. so you answered that yourself.


I am guessing a certain someone has one of those "I work with union tools" stickers in his back window.

 

are'nt we polluting the air no matter what car we drive ?? except for the hybrid, but still they use partical chemicals and gas.

 

I think he meant that the shorter the cars lifespan, the more old cars we have sitting around polluting.

As far as emissions are concerned.. I am keeping my eye on the PEM fuel cell technology. This will offer zero emissions and a great potential for power. Hybrid is a stepping stone I guess.. but not near the potential of the fuel cell. And the Accord V6 hybrid is really not worth it. You are paying way more for the car than you will ever save in fuel. But... thats getting off topic I know

 

No, I don't. Again, I work in management, not on the union side. Trust me, there is no love lost as we're setting a new benchmark as these things go during our restructuring.

And you've proven my point about research into history. Income, healthcare -- all of those improved because of employees joing together in unions to fight for them. And if you think OSHA wouldn't be gutted you should look into the recent settlement between the JOD and a non-unionized WalMart.

I'm living it first hand myself my little friend, and it's not as black and white and you would like to believe it is. Keep singing yourself that lullaby though, it obviously makes you happy.

IF the company I work at survives it will only be due to the fact that the corporation and the unions (by and large, not all of them are there yet) have finally recognized that both sides are at fault. Once that is accepted, real work can begin.

If you real think that US automakers are having the issue they are because of unions alone you're more dilluded than I thought. And if GM's management shares your mindset, they will never recover.

Unions have a place in our economy. I'll say it again, many of the unions we have today will die. Others will evolve and grow like the Service Workers.

But you keep thinking it's just good v. bad.

 

Technology itselfs causes the pollution you are talking about. The more innovation we have, the more old cars we will get sitting around. If you would have the same cars for sale today, as, say 10 or 20 years ago, there would not be as many old ones sitting around. The more incentive you have to get rid of your car (new technology), the more old cars you will have.

Why fix your old 1990 Camry when you can get a nice 2005 one, that is more powerful, more reliable (arguably), more efficient, more spacious, and comes with tons of new technologies and luxury features?

 

What we need to do is put more pressure on manufcturers to increase the recyclable content of their vehicles. Life span wouldn't matter nearly as much if compinents could be broken down and reused.

 

That's not a very easy thing to do. In order for them to do that, they would need to spend a lot of money on R&D to develop materials that can be recycled, and yet prove to be just as functional. Higher cost for the company = higher cost of the vehicle or less profit for the company.

 

Read again my friend. I clearly stated that I believe the unions are ONE of the causes. Not the only cause. You used your lack of reading all of my post to create another argument. A company that is already suffering can't afford to increase wages.. and may need to perform some cutbacks simply to stay alive. When these idiots in the union cant understand that and strike... they only worsen the issue. You show me where punishing a company for not having money by asking for more is a good solution.

And I never said unions had never done any good. But we are past the need for them in the US at this point. They had their time and place and it is over. Keep fighting for them though.. it may be your company the next one helps bankrupt.

 

Back to the original question, this sounds just right:


Think of how some cars start to really fall apart/have costly mechanical issues on the 37k mi, or 49k mi, etc.

We are all destroying the world by driving cars in the first place, but for whatever reason, I don't see people selling their home that is miles/30+ minutes from work, selling their car, and walking everywhere. (I'm not)