Do I really need new struts?
05-21-2012, 05:05 AM
#1
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Do I really need new struts?
Hi, it's been a while since I lasted posted here, but I have a question that needs answering, I hope you guys can help!
So I just got new tires on my stock 17" wheels, and when I had the dealership do a 4-wheel alignment, they told me they had trouble doing the alignment, and that I most likely needed new struts. I have the TRD springs and stock struts with about 40K miles on them. The toe was really out of whack on the front right and rear left side wheels, which was fixed but was told they still couldn't get quite right. I've included a printout of what was done.
So, do the stock struts giving out at 40K with a TRD drop sound reasonable to you given the alignment measurements? I don't want to spend $800+ for new struts & installation if I don't have to and the guy at the dealership didn't sound too sure replacing it would solve the issue. Might it even be a bent control arm or something else? Thank you,any insight would be helpful!
So I just got new tires on my stock 17" wheels, and when I had the dealership do a 4-wheel alignment, they told me they had trouble doing the alignment, and that I most likely needed new struts. I have the TRD springs and stock struts with about 40K miles on them. The toe was really out of whack on the front right and rear left side wheels, which was fixed but was told they still couldn't get quite right. I've included a printout of what was done.
So, do the stock struts giving out at 40K with a TRD drop sound reasonable to you given the alignment measurements? I don't want to spend $800+ for new struts & installation if I don't have to and the guy at the dealership didn't sound too sure replacing it would solve the issue. Might it even be a bent control arm or something else? Thank you,any insight would be helpful!
05-21-2012, 08:10 AM
#2
Putting aftermarket springs on stock struts puts more stress on them and will eventually cause strut problems, which you are currently facing. Thats why people suggest getting coilovers so when going to resell or go back to stock, your stock struts arent damaged. So yeah, I believe your stock struts are blown. If you plan to keep your car for a few more years, might be better to invst that $800 in coilovers, there are some very decent coilovers for that price - ~$1000.
05-21-2012, 09:46 AM
#3
What did they say was giving them trouble? They got everything in range. The only angle that concerns me is the front right.
Have you ever had an alignment done I. The car since you bought it? New or used? If something like the right front axle was replaced at some point the person who installed it probably didn't get it aligned.
I also don't like the "most likely need new struts" comment. They are either good or bad, not much of an in between. The spring rates on TRD springs should be fine combined with stock struts, at the very least not killing them at 40k unless you already had 40k+ on the struts prior to the springs being installed.
Have you ever had an alignment done I. The car since you bought it? New or used? If something like the right front axle was replaced at some point the person who installed it probably didn't get it aligned.
I also don't like the "most likely need new struts" comment. They are either good or bad, not much of an in between. The spring rates on TRD springs should be fine combined with stock struts, at the very least not killing them at 40k unless you already had 40k+ on the struts prior to the springs being installed.
05-31-2012, 08:01 AM
#4
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i agree the right front looks like it needs some camber adjustment, which is easy with the bolts that are in there. I've already done it on mine, adjusted it.
And what's with the toe in the rear? talk about lazy! 0.20 each side, total 0.40, when max is 0.50? Should've been closer to the average between 0.10 and 0.50, which is 0.30! so dividing 0.30 by 2 = 0.15, is where the toe should be for each side in the rear.
also the front toe, should've been either 0.0 or 0.01, looks like the mechanic just adjusted the right front like crazy, and the reason you see a small change on the left front is because of the change he made on the right front! If this was me I'd go back and force them to re-do this alignment! Sorry it really gets me angry when i always see such lazy wheel alignments. Pay lots of money and get a half-done job.
when the shocks/springs go bad, they either leak hydraulic oil down the sides of the strut body or they just slowly lower the car. You should measure the ride height of the fender to the ground. That would tell you if the car is losing height. I tried to search for the spec, but didn't get the number.. I dont have the trd shock/spring set up maybe someone else could measure that for ya and tell you. but 40k seems a bit early for springs/shocks to be gone.
If this dealer's diagnostic skills are as good as their alignment (not great), then I wouldn't believe anything they tell you is wrong with your car.
EDIT: also, they told you it might be a bent control arm? ha! it is not, look at your alignment print out. See the caster? It's completely fine, that is what you look at to be out of whack if the control arm is bent. Wow these people just want to make up stuff to sell you things, Maybe not go back there and force them to do anything (like another alignment) before they really screw something up. I'm not one to throw away money but maybe find another shop and get an alignment from someone who knows what they're doing? I don't mean to sound negative, just don't like to see more lies being thrown at a customer.
And what's with the toe in the rear? talk about lazy! 0.20 each side, total 0.40, when max is 0.50? Should've been closer to the average between 0.10 and 0.50, which is 0.30! so dividing 0.30 by 2 = 0.15, is where the toe should be for each side in the rear.
also the front toe, should've been either 0.0 or 0.01, looks like the mechanic just adjusted the right front like crazy, and the reason you see a small change on the left front is because of the change he made on the right front! If this was me I'd go back and force them to re-do this alignment! Sorry it really gets me angry when i always see such lazy wheel alignments. Pay lots of money and get a half-done job.
when the shocks/springs go bad, they either leak hydraulic oil down the sides of the strut body or they just slowly lower the car. You should measure the ride height of the fender to the ground. That would tell you if the car is losing height. I tried to search for the spec, but didn't get the number.. I dont have the trd shock/spring set up maybe someone else could measure that for ya and tell you. but 40k seems a bit early for springs/shocks to be gone.
If this dealer's diagnostic skills are as good as their alignment (not great), then I wouldn't believe anything they tell you is wrong with your car.
EDIT: also, they told you it might be a bent control arm? ha! it is not, look at your alignment print out. See the caster? It's completely fine, that is what you look at to be out of whack if the control arm is bent. Wow these people just want to make up stuff to sell you things, Maybe not go back there and force them to do anything (like another alignment) before they really screw something up. I'm not one to throw away money but maybe find another shop and get an alignment from someone who knows what they're doing? I don't mean to sound negative, just don't like to see more lies being thrown at a customer.
05-31-2012, 11:28 PM
#5
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You're wrong about struts going bad. I have a bad Koni in my garage that never leaked. I replaced it when it clunked. When I took it off, the shaft on the bad one moved easier than the shaft on the new strut.
The struts wouldn't affect the toe. If that's out of spec, something may be bent.
On a strut suspension, camber and toe change very little on compression.
From the factory, the toe is not zero. The alignment on my autocross car is -1/16", and the shop didn't recommend any more for a street driven car. From the factory, you have toe in (positive toe) for stability, and tire longevity.
The struts wouldn't affect the toe. If that's out of spec, something may be bent.
On a strut suspension, camber and toe change very little on compression.
From the factory, the toe is not zero. The alignment on my autocross car is -1/16", and the shop didn't recommend any more for a street driven car. From the factory, you have toe in (positive toe) for stability, and tire longevity.
06-01-2012, 08:47 AM
#6
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You're wrong about struts going bad. I have a bad Koni in my garage that never leaked. I replaced it when it clunked. When I took it off, the shaft on the bad one moved easier than the shaft on the new strut.
The struts wouldn't affect the toe. If that's out of spec, something may be bent.
On a strut suspension, camber and toe change very little on compression.
From the factory, the toe is not zero. The alignment on my autocross car is -1/16", and the shop didn't recommend any more for a street driven car. From the factory, you have toe in (positive toe) for stability, and tire longevity.
The struts wouldn't affect the toe. If that's out of spec, something may be bent.
On a strut suspension, camber and toe change very little on compression.
From the factory, the toe is not zero. The alignment on my autocross car is -1/16", and the shop didn't recommend any more for a street driven car. From the factory, you have toe in (positive toe) for stability, and tire longevity.
And affecting the toe? why dont you actually READ what I posted. I NEVER said that. and YES the FACTORY FRONT TOE is 0.00! I think it's funny you think that technicians NEVER adjust one side of toe because they're lazy and don't adjust the other side, it's so obvious by the numbers! You should really see that for yourself sometime when a lazy tech does that.
from trdsparks, wow.. look! the actual Toyota factory service manual specs for a front and rear alignment. Oh, look at that, 0.00 for toe in the front, yeah i'd really take advice from your "shop" instead of what the factory said it is. Oh and that's right, I already said 0.00 or 0.01 for front toe. And who said the original poster is "auto-crossing the car" , we're talking the real world, regular, everyday driving.
Front Wheel alignment:
http://www.trdsparks.com/install/tCFWheelAlignment.pdf
Rear Wheel Alignment:
http://www.trdsparks.com/install/tCRWheelAlignment.pdf
I know you'll probably be back to give me more wisdom that you know "personally" but doesn't really matter as I already have the Toyota Factory Service manual, and I think the engineers who designed the car, really know a little more of the specs they designed the car for. The only reason I replied to this post of yours is to correct this info so we don't have the new people here believing incorrect info.
06-02-2012, 01:13 PM
#7
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Lighten up, Francis.
The toe I was referring to was in the original post.
I'll be the first to admit i don't know exactly what the factory spec is. Most cars have a slight toe in.
The "shop" I take my car to was recommended by a Grand Am team.
The alignment they recommended was as far as they suggested I go for a street-driven car. Not all techs are lazy. In fact, most aren't.
The toe I was referring to was in the original post.
I'll be the first to admit i don't know exactly what the factory spec is. Most cars have a slight toe in.
The "shop" I take my car to was recommended by a Grand Am team.
The alignment they recommended was as far as they suggested I go for a street-driven car. Not all techs are lazy. In fact, most aren't.
06-02-2012, 01:23 PM
#8
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Sorry I come off as short with you.
I'm used to people talking out of their backsides, without any real world knowledge.
People who think all dealerships are crooks, all service departments are out to rip them off.
It sounds you might actually know what you're talking about.
I'm used to people talking out of their backsides, without any real world knowledge.
People who think all dealerships are crooks, all service departments are out to rip them off.
It sounds you might actually know what you're talking about.
06-06-2012, 05:57 AM
#9
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 79
i agree the right front looks like it needs some camber adjustment, which is easy with the bolts that are in there. I've already done it on mine, adjusted it.
And what's with the toe in the rear? talk about lazy! 0.20 each side, total 0.40, when max is 0.50? Should've been closer to the average between 0.10 and 0.50, which is 0.30! so dividing 0.30 by 2 = 0.15, is where the toe should be for each side in the rear.
also the front toe, should've been either 0.0 or 0.01, looks like the mechanic just adjusted the right front like crazy, and the reason you see a small change on the left front is because of the change he made on the right front! If this was me I'd go back and force them to re-do this alignment! Sorry it really gets me angry when i always see such lazy wheel alignments. Pay lots of money and get a half-done job.
when the shocks/springs go bad, they either leak hydraulic oil down the sides of the strut body or they just slowly lower the car. You should measure the ride height of the fender to the ground. That would tell you if the car is losing height. I tried to search for the spec, but didn't get the number.. I dont have the trd shock/spring set up maybe someone else could measure that for ya and tell you. but 40k seems a bit early for springs/shocks to be gone.
If this dealer's diagnostic skills are as good as their alignment (not great), then I wouldn't believe anything they tell you is wrong with your car.
EDIT: also, they told you it might be a bent control arm? ha! it is not, look at your alignment print out. See the caster? It's completely fine, that is what you look at to be out of whack if the control arm is bent. Wow these people just want to make up stuff to sell you things, Maybe not go back there and force them to do anything (like another alignment) before they really screw something up. I'm not one to throw away money but maybe find another shop and get an alignment from someone who knows what they're doing? I don't mean to sound negative, just don't like to see more lies being thrown at a customer.
And what's with the toe in the rear? talk about lazy! 0.20 each side, total 0.40, when max is 0.50? Should've been closer to the average between 0.10 and 0.50, which is 0.30! so dividing 0.30 by 2 = 0.15, is where the toe should be for each side in the rear.
also the front toe, should've been either 0.0 or 0.01, looks like the mechanic just adjusted the right front like crazy, and the reason you see a small change on the left front is because of the change he made on the right front! If this was me I'd go back and force them to re-do this alignment! Sorry it really gets me angry when i always see such lazy wheel alignments. Pay lots of money and get a half-done job.
when the shocks/springs go bad, they either leak hydraulic oil down the sides of the strut body or they just slowly lower the car. You should measure the ride height of the fender to the ground. That would tell you if the car is losing height. I tried to search for the spec, but didn't get the number.. I dont have the trd shock/spring set up maybe someone else could measure that for ya and tell you. but 40k seems a bit early for springs/shocks to be gone.
If this dealer's diagnostic skills are as good as their alignment (not great), then I wouldn't believe anything they tell you is wrong with your car.
EDIT: also, they told you it might be a bent control arm? ha! it is not, look at your alignment print out. See the caster? It's completely fine, that is what you look at to be out of whack if the control arm is bent. Wow these people just want to make up stuff to sell you things, Maybe not go back there and force them to do anything (like another alignment) before they really screw something up. I'm not one to throw away money but maybe find another shop and get an alignment from someone who knows what they're doing? I don't mean to sound negative, just don't like to see more lies being thrown at a customer.
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