tC's and Body Roll..
08-11-2009, 10:53 PM
#1
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tC's and Body Roll..
Do stock tCs have significantly more body roll that most cars of its size because of the glass roof??
I noticed on this factory suspension, the car can become very unstable, especially when braking while turning (like on the highway) or if u cut over too hard, the back end will most definitely switch back around on you, then its all over.
This happened to me on the highway, i had to jump over to avoid a dope, I stayed on the gas to avoid immediately spinning out when the weight shifted, passed the dope, eased off the gas, and the back still switched and spun me out. not fun.
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I noticed on this factory suspension, the car can become very unstable, especially when braking while turning (like on the highway) or if u cut over too hard, the back end will most definitely switch back around on you, then its all over.
This happened to me on the highway, i had to jump over to avoid a dope, I stayed on the gas to avoid immediately spinning out when the weight shifted, passed the dope, eased off the gas, and the back still switched and spun me out. not fun.
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Last edited by MR_LUV; 05-07-2021 at 06:03 AM. Reason: Awarded 10 Yr Badge
08-12-2009, 12:05 AM
#4
It's a front wheel drive car... it understeers like a pig and can oversteer if you're decelerating in a corner (weight shifts to the front as it's turning and the back end kicks out).
That's just how it is. It's not the car since almost all FWD cars will do that.
It honestly just sounds like you don't know how to handle it. Not saying that to be a dick, but from what you describe, it sounds like you're trying to be a race car driver or something... but failing.
How fast were you going? And how hard were you on the brakes when you tried to turn?
One of the biggest things I've learned in autox is to brake BEFORE you turn... especially in a FWD car.
That's just how it is. It's not the car since almost all FWD cars will do that.
It honestly just sounds like you don't know how to handle it. Not saying that to be a dick, but from what you describe, it sounds like you're trying to be a race car driver or something... but failing.
How fast were you going? And how hard were you on the brakes when you tried to turn?
One of the biggest things I've learned in autox is to brake BEFORE you turn... especially in a FWD car.
08-12-2009, 12:07 AM
#5
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1. learn to how to drive, as previously stated.
2. you are complaining about oversteer in a front-wheel drive car.
3. what you are experiencing is lift-throttle (or throttle-lift) oversteer. what happens is that when you take your foot off the gas while in gear, the car immediately starts engine braking, which means the front wheels are braking while the rear wheels are just rolling along, thus transferring nearly all the weight of the car over the front wheels, making it easier for the unburdened rear wheels to cone around easier.
4. the tc does have a higher center of gravity because of its all glass roof, but it still has very little understeer on factory suspension under most conditions. but it is still a easy to drive and manuever car.
5. you do not brake while turning, you brake, take your foot off the brake, turn, power out. braking while turning will cause the car to slide more while trying to turn. think of it this way, you can only ask the front wheels to do so much, they can brake, accelerate, and turn, but you can't ask them to do too much of two things at once. you can't accelerate hard while turning, you can't turn hard while braking hard. this is true of all cars.
6. go watch intial d to learn about a cars handling, weight transfer, and driver's line, and consider doing some autocross to learn how a car behaves when turning, braking and accelerating hard in a nearly controlled environment.
7. it is not the car, it is you.
2. you are complaining about oversteer in a front-wheel drive car.
3. what you are experiencing is lift-throttle (or throttle-lift) oversteer. what happens is that when you take your foot off the gas while in gear, the car immediately starts engine braking, which means the front wheels are braking while the rear wheels are just rolling along, thus transferring nearly all the weight of the car over the front wheels, making it easier for the unburdened rear wheels to cone around easier.
4. the tc does have a higher center of gravity because of its all glass roof, but it still has very little understeer on factory suspension under most conditions. but it is still a easy to drive and manuever car.
5. you do not brake while turning, you brake, take your foot off the brake, turn, power out. braking while turning will cause the car to slide more while trying to turn. think of it this way, you can only ask the front wheels to do so much, they can brake, accelerate, and turn, but you can't ask them to do too much of two things at once. you can't accelerate hard while turning, you can't turn hard while braking hard. this is true of all cars.
6. go watch intial d to learn about a cars handling, weight transfer, and driver's line, and consider doing some autocross to learn how a car behaves when turning, braking and accelerating hard in a nearly controlled environment.
7. it is not the car, it is you.
08-12-2009, 01:04 AM
#9
I really hope he will not try the gutter trick. He will flip like stage4 episode1
08-12-2009, 01:23 AM
#10
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08-12-2009, 04:16 AM
#12
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As it is so tempting to re-state the learn to drive comment. Oops...just did...my bad. But yeah, we all know the feeling you just need to learn how to handle it. I'm running Hotchkis Front and Rear Sways, TRD Front Strut Tower Bar
and a GReddy rear one, on op of Tein S-Techs {the weak links} I can say that the car rotates much better and handles for the most part as flat as a table top. Look into it, but expect to spend close to a G for it all.
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and a GReddy rear one, on op of Tein S-Techs {the weak links} I can say that the car rotates much better and handles for the most part as flat as a table top. Look into it, but expect to spend close to a G for it all.
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Last edited by MR_LUV; 05-07-2021 at 05:30 AM. Reason: Awarded 10 Yr Badge
08-12-2009, 08:00 AM
#14
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Posts: 24
Body Roll, no problem
lot of times is the set up, for instance you need some basic parts to reduce body roll, strut tower bar, sway bar, rear endlinks, you probably don't need the front sway, because mine is okay without changing it.....next level will be coilovers, wider rims and sticky tires...control arm bushings....subframe bushings....roadcage....actually road cage can make a huge difference, then it comes to setting it up, because tC is a front wheel drive car, you rear sway bar need to be in a stiffest setting, then adjust your coilover to the stiffest setting in the rear, medium stiffness in the front depending how you are driving it.
You have to drive it in order to feel it then take step by step process to adjust the settings in the coilovers plus you need ride height adjustment, and camber out the rear tires just a little bit to improve handling, not too much or its gonna to wear out your tire so quick. I camber out mine to 0.7 degrees. I take mine to the mountains to do hairpin at least 2 times a week to fine tune my skills. Hmmm, too bad I haven't seen underbrace made for this car yet, otherwise I will try it too.
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You have to drive it in order to feel it then take step by step process to adjust the settings in the coilovers plus you need ride height adjustment, and camber out the rear tires just a little bit to improve handling, not too much or its gonna to wear out your tire so quick. I camber out mine to 0.7 degrees. I take mine to the mountains to do hairpin at least 2 times a week to fine tune my skills. Hmmm, too bad I haven't seen underbrace made for this car yet, otherwise I will try it too.
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Last edited by MR_LUV; 05-07-2021 at 05:32 AM. Reason: Awarded 10 Yr Badge
08-12-2009, 12:04 PM
#15
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lot of times is the set up, for instance you need some basic parts to reduce body roll, strut tower bar, sway bar, rear endlinks, you probably dont need the front sway, because mine is okay without changing it.....next level will be coilovers, wider rims and sticky tires...control arm bushings....subframe bushings....roadcage....actually road cage can make a huge difference, then it comes to setting it up, because tc is a front wheel drive car, you rear sway bar need to be in a stiffest setting, then adjust your coilover to the stiffest setting in the rear, medium stiffness in the front depending how you are driving it, you have to drive it in order to feel it then take step by step process to adjust the settings in the coilovers plus you need ride height adjustment, and camber out the rear tires just a little bit to improve handling, not too much or its gonna to wear out your tire so quick. I camber out mine to 0.7 degrees. I take mine to the mountains to do hairpin at least 2 times a week to fine tune my skills. Hmmm, too bad I havent seen underbrace made for this car yet, otherwise I will try it too.
First, what the hell is a road cage (besides apparently a blog)? At first I thought you meant road rage, but that didn't make any sense. Then I decided you meant a roll cage, which would be totally unnecessary but ok.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roll_cage
The last thing this guy needs is parts to make the car more prone to oversteer. He had oversteer problems on stock suspension and you are suggesting he set up the car to be ultra stiff in the rear to promote more oversteer, how is that going to help him?
Your setup itself doesn't make much sense either. You are suggesting that he stiffen up the entire rear suspension to reduce rear end grip but then you throw in negative (I'm assuming negative) camber to increase grip, although -0.7 degrees is barely any camber at all and is actually more positive than the factory nominal setting. Did you mean an additional 0.7 degrees negative on top of the factory setting? This again would be counter-productive to your goal of trying to reduce rear end grip.
Assuming you actually installed the parts you mentioned if you are going for a car that oversteers you could have left the car totally stock, saved yourself a ton of money and instead learned how to trail brake.
Don't take this wrong way but you seem to be someone who threw money at his car without taking a step back to figure out what you were trying to do.To the OP, another vote for autocross. It's a cheap, safe, and easy way to figure out how your car handles at and beyond it's limit. As others have mentioned FWD cars are not well balanced. Most of the weight is over the front and when you let off or brake even more weight shifts to the front. Even in a stock setup the rear end can get very loose. People often think FWD cars just understeer, which they do when accelerating. However, they can oversteer if unsettled with sudden movements, throttle lift off, and/or braking, especially when those are combined with turning.
Last edited by Rexpelagi; 08-12-2009 at 12:08 PM.
08-12-2009, 03:12 PM
#17
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Learn how to drive? LOL! you're 18 bro, I'm sure you have no clue when it comes to driving...
08-14-2009, 02:57 AM
#18
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 17
It's a front wheel drive car... it understeers like a pig and can oversteer if you're decelerating in a corner (weight shifts to the front as it's turning and the back end kicks out).
That's just how it is. It's not the car since almost all FWD cars will do that.
It honestly just sounds like you don't know how to handle it. Not saying that to be a dick, but from what you describe, it sounds like you're trying to be a race car driver or something... but failing.
How fast were you going? And how hard were you on the brakes when you tried to turn?
One of the biggest things I've learned in autox is to brake BEFORE you turn... especially in a FWD car.
That's just how it is. It's not the car since almost all FWD cars will do that.
It honestly just sounds like you don't know how to handle it. Not saying that to be a dick, but from what you describe, it sounds like you're trying to be a race car driver or something... but failing.
How fast were you going? And how hard were you on the brakes when you tried to turn?
One of the biggest things I've learned in autox is to brake BEFORE you turn... especially in a FWD car.
75-80mph until rush-hour traffic at the end of a right curve...in this instance..the only option is to slow down as much as possible during the curve..which causes the car to swerve as i learned...and didnt expect.
As for everyone else, thanks for the tips and improvement options.
Im coming off a very different Rwd 97 Ford Thunderbird. Handling is muuch different, so when something happens with this car that suprises me, I ask those who know more about it. Im sure you 5 kids have had a question or two for the more knowledgeable on this forum.
Last edited by Knice; 08-14-2009 at 03:18 AM. Reason: adding
08-14-2009, 03:52 AM
#19
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I keep re-reading your original post and i just can't for the life of me figure out what you could do to make the tC over steer on you. the only time I've had to worry about the tC over steering on me was auto crossing on a triple skid pad specifically treated
to have minimal traction for cars driving on it. And even going hard around the cones and slaloms, getting up to 55 mph (i was actually hitting my rev limiter in 2nd gear), there were 2-3 instances when the car almost sent me on a 180, but I caught it each time.
There's a picture from the event, I was nearly on 2 wheels in that one!
then in that one, with the LSD and stiffer front sway bar and strut tower brace, and poly suspension bushings, i am able to lift the inside from tire while accelerating.
And sure I've asked questions from more knowledgeable people than myself, but usually that is after I've exhausted all my resources for figuring it out myself.
Oh, and lastly, the Scion tC's stock handling is largely let down by the crappy stock tires. once I had decent tires on my tC, i was flying around turns with it.
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to have minimal traction for cars driving on it. And even going hard around the cones and slaloms, getting up to 55 mph (i was actually hitting my rev limiter in 2nd gear), there were 2-3 instances when the car almost sent me on a 180, but I caught it each time.
There's a picture from the event, I was nearly on 2 wheels in that one!
then in that one, with the LSD and stiffer front sway bar and strut tower brace, and poly suspension bushings, i am able to lift the inside from tire while accelerating.
And sure I've asked questions from more knowledgeable people than myself, but usually that is after I've exhausted all my resources for figuring it out myself.
Oh, and lastly, the Scion tC's stock handling is largely let down by the crappy stock tires. once I had decent tires on my tC, i was flying around turns with it.
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Last edited by MR_LUV; 05-07-2021 at 05:44 AM. Reason: Awarded 10 Yr Badge