Staggered wheels and Handling
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 256
From: Southside Chicago
Staggered wheels and Handling
This is and observance from me that I ask everyone to think about it before responding.
Now, I have read from just about everyone on here that staggered wheels are useless or worse on a FWD car. I pose that the real answer is that they are useless or worse on FWD cars in a DRAG race.
My view: I have read quite a bit about people who get Hotchkis or Progress (maybe even TRD) sways and the understeer becomes oversteer. This is where staggered wheels should be awesome. It is obvious that with more tire in the rear of the car, the harder it would be to slide them and thus, useful! This means that the wider the rear wheels, the faster you can go in a turn before you get oversteer. Maybe it is not even 5 mph faster, but like an S-pipe or CAI, every little bit helps.
This leads me into the next argument that the tC does not have enough power. Aside from the obvious of getting a turbo kit to up the power, there is the fact that in a road course, and even an AutoX, the car is already rolling and does not need to overcome as much of the weight as when the car is at a dead stop. Add to the fact that you can corner faster so you do not have to slow down as and accelerate as much in these turns.
Now, this comes from my observations and logic. With that, comes my question. Does having the rear wheels further from the body mess with the turning geometry and hurt handling? I do not know much about suspension geometry but, like the springs argument, its seems like there could be a benefit to go so far and at a certain point the handling reaches maximum effectiveness before deteriorating. Maybe being wider than 2" in the rear (combined) there is a positive or no effect on handling or maybe my car will flip and burst into flame, the radio cover shoots off into my arm and the clutch pedal shoots back then forward throwing my knee into my face.
Common sense is that there are many manufacturers that use staggered wheels (specifically for sports cars). I mean, check out the corvette: 18" x 9.5" front and 19" x 12.0" rear
! Let us not forget that the C6 did very well on the road course for Top Gear.
Now, I have read from just about everyone on here that staggered wheels are useless or worse on a FWD car. I pose that the real answer is that they are useless or worse on FWD cars in a DRAG race.
My view: I have read quite a bit about people who get Hotchkis or Progress (maybe even TRD) sways and the understeer becomes oversteer. This is where staggered wheels should be awesome. It is obvious that with more tire in the rear of the car, the harder it would be to slide them and thus, useful! This means that the wider the rear wheels, the faster you can go in a turn before you get oversteer. Maybe it is not even 5 mph faster, but like an S-pipe or CAI, every little bit helps.
This leads me into the next argument that the tC does not have enough power. Aside from the obvious of getting a turbo kit to up the power, there is the fact that in a road course, and even an AutoX, the car is already rolling and does not need to overcome as much of the weight as when the car is at a dead stop. Add to the fact that you can corner faster so you do not have to slow down as and accelerate as much in these turns.
Now, this comes from my observations and logic. With that, comes my question. Does having the rear wheels further from the body mess with the turning geometry and hurt handling? I do not know much about suspension geometry but, like the springs argument, its seems like there could be a benefit to go so far and at a certain point the handling reaches maximum effectiveness before deteriorating. Maybe being wider than 2" in the rear (combined) there is a positive or no effect on handling or maybe my car will flip and burst into flame, the radio cover shoots off into my arm and the clutch pedal shoots back then forward throwing my knee into my face.
Common sense is that there are many manufacturers that use staggered wheels (specifically for sports cars). I mean, check out the corvette: 18" x 9.5" front and 19" x 12.0" rear
! Let us not forget that the C6 did very well on the road course for Top Gear.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 91
From: Milpitas, CA 95035
I am planing to get the Tork revo's staggered http://www.wheelnext.com/default.cfm...lor=HYPERBLACK
18x8 in front and 18x9 in the rear. 5x100 bolt pattern on 225/35/18 tires in the front and the rear. Is this a good idea? Will it work? I also want to know other peoples thoughts about it. I am on tien s techs. So iam a bit affraid i will rub all the time.
18x8 in front and 18x9 in the rear. 5x100 bolt pattern on 225/35/18 tires in the front and the rear. Is this a good idea? Will it work? I also want to know other peoples thoughts about it. I am on tien s techs. So iam a bit affraid i will rub all the time.
RWD cars use wide wheels in the rear because they need to. They steer with the front ones, and put power down through the back ones. It is really that simple.
On an FWD car with wheels in the rear wider than those in the front, the car will exhibit pronounced understeer with snap oversteer at the limit. How quickly the oversteer comes on and how pronounced it is depends on a whole bunch of factors, from tire choice to unsprung weight to spring rate. It's not the increased track width causing the initial problem-- that responsibility goes to the wider tires themselves-- but the oversteer at the limit is influenced by how much wider the rear track is than the front.
As with most things, the choice that may be the best cosmetically is seldom the best in terms of performance. IMO, 245s all around is the best choice for performance, with the fewest caveats.
On an FWD car with wheels in the rear wider than those in the front, the car will exhibit pronounced understeer with snap oversteer at the limit. How quickly the oversteer comes on and how pronounced it is depends on a whole bunch of factors, from tire choice to unsprung weight to spring rate. It's not the increased track width causing the initial problem-- that responsibility goes to the wider tires themselves-- but the oversteer at the limit is influenced by how much wider the rear track is than the front.
As with most things, the choice that may be the best cosmetically is seldom the best in terms of performance. IMO, 245s all around is the best choice for performance, with the fewest caveats.
Thread Starter
Senior Member
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 256
From: Southside Chicago
Two questions for you then. If wider wheels make understeer worse (that is to say, they combat oversteer) wouldn't having the wider wheels decrease oversteer on a car that oversteers? Many people have said how putting on the Hotchkis sway on even the middle setting, not race, the car begins to oversteer. If a tC now oversteers, wouldn't that person want as wide rear tires as possible to combat oversteer and help handling?
The second question is about geometry. Lets say I have 18x8.5 all around with 1" wheels spacers for the rear. The contact patch would be the same, however, the wheels are now 1" further out from the front and thus, make the rear 2" wider. This, at least in a minimal way, would create less body roll and would make handling better. This should, like above, make the car handle better.
Short and sweet, if a car already oversteers, wouldn't wider wheels make handling better and reduce oversteer?
The second question is about geometry. Lets say I have 18x8.5 all around with 1" wheels spacers for the rear. The contact patch would be the same, however, the wheels are now 1" further out from the front and thus, make the rear 2" wider. This, at least in a minimal way, would create less body roll and would make handling better. This should, like above, make the car handle better.
Short and sweet, if a car already oversteers, wouldn't wider wheels make handling better and reduce oversteer?
I think that in most people's hand, in most instances, the difference will not be felt. The majority of people will never take their car to within even 70% of its limits-- street driving offers very few opportunities to push a car safely.
My primary concern is just that, though; the car will feel pretty much the same, but at the limit-- particularly in the wet-- the car will behave like a completely different animal. If the driver isn't ready for it, he/she is in for a world of trouble.
Altering offset and wheel spacing is not something to be done lightly. The suspension geometry is dependent on the center of the tire being where the engineers put it. Haphazardly moving it around will have a specific impact-- to specific for me to speculate about, not knowing any of the other influencing variables (spring rate and ride height, section width and compound of tire, offset and wheel spacing).
I do tire and suspension setup on a Late Model Sportsman oval car, and know what even a minute change in geometry can do-- so I don't take it lightly.
My primary concern is just that, though; the car will feel pretty much the same, but at the limit-- particularly in the wet-- the car will behave like a completely different animal. If the driver isn't ready for it, he/she is in for a world of trouble.
Altering offset and wheel spacing is not something to be done lightly. The suspension geometry is dependent on the center of the tire being where the engineers put it. Haphazardly moving it around will have a specific impact-- to specific for me to speculate about, not knowing any of the other influencing variables (spring rate and ride height, section width and compound of tire, offset and wheel spacing).
I do tire and suspension setup on a Late Model Sportsman oval car, and know what even a minute change in geometry can do-- so I don't take it lightly.
Thread Starter
Senior Member
SL Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 256
From: Southside Chicago
If I read you correctly, the only options should be a set of wheels that are either the same size with NO spacers, or a staggered set-up.
And if one does a staggered set-up, to be aware that the car will behave differently at its limit and I should try to find somewhere to see how the car will react to being pushed to the limits in a variety of conditions.
The reason I ask is that I would LOVE to take my car onto a road course and see how much fun I can have and push the car pretty hard. I would also like to get into some SCCA auto-x to try it out, though I believe my heart is on road course.
I know 18"s would be a little ridiculous on a road car, at least until I can get boosted. The car just looks so good with them, though, when I am able to afford more, it would probably make more sense to get a second race set of lightweight 17". At least the 18" would have a thinner sidewall for better handling feel.
And if one does a staggered set-up, to be aware that the car will behave differently at its limit and I should try to find somewhere to see how the car will react to being pushed to the limits in a variety of conditions.
The reason I ask is that I would LOVE to take my car onto a road course and see how much fun I can have and push the car pretty hard. I would also like to get into some SCCA auto-x to try it out, though I believe my heart is on road course.
I know 18"s would be a little ridiculous on a road car, at least until I can get boosted. The car just looks so good with them, though, when I am able to afford more, it would probably make more sense to get a second race set of lightweight 17". At least the 18" would have a thinner sidewall for better handling feel.
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