VitaminE

800hp 2AR-FE

I realize that no one on this site is into building an engine, but I thought I'd throw this on here for anyone interested how much it takes to get 800hp out of this engine.

I don't build engines but I study the knowledge and am glad to see how over engineered this drivetrain is when I start my plans for GO, not show.

This engine can take a lot of abuse. For people on here it seems to be more about wheels and paint (even the exhaust manifold heat shield, really?). Performance mods are considered a pulley and CAI.
Serious "builders" throw on a store bought turbo kit and comment on how it's not worth doing anything else because it's such a slow car.

So I'm going to leave this information here and maybe one person will read it.

Sorry, if I offended anyone, but you can't start with a slow car, do nothing to it, and then complain that car owners of another make don't respect your ride. My motto is "build it, don't buy it".

VitaminE

Scion Racing

More pretty pictures here

criminaltc

Buddy. Listen. These are Scions. Cheap boxes concerned about fuel economy and an affordable car for the average consumer. There isn't a single Toyota/Scion part on that car. It's a 2AR bottom end mold converted to rear-wheel. This is easily a $75,000 build with a world class racing team. How on earth could you compare this car to people complaining about bolt-ons. The build this team did here took more talent and money than 99% of actual car builders. I built my 2007 Civic Si 2.0L to 515hp 18lbs of boost. There's not a stock part on the car. My turbo is as big as these guys. My built cost me close to $50,000. My transmission alone cost me $12K. Nobody does that. My Si is just like a tC. Slow and economy and cheap. Now there's barely any Honda parts on the car. Your post didn't make any sense. You didn't offend me, you just don't make sense. You can't just throw in some high compression pistons (your definition of "built") and expect 800hp. High compression Pistons would get the 2AR up to 200hp, that's it. You can't just "build" a car to 800hp or even 400hp for that matter. So yes, for these guys and their tC's, when I see them do full bolt ons and some cams and suspension work, that's for sure a legit build for these cars. They don't have the right to complain though, they should know better than to complain, and they should know better that these are slow sh.it cars. I love my tC1 and my tC2 for their looks after I slam them and how good they sound with the right exhaust system. What else is there needed? Speed is not a priority. So go ahead boss, build your tC really quick and compete with these drift teams since you build and don't buy. Regardless, you bought a Scion, so you don't have much money. These teams use any car they please as platforms and platforms only, they could care less about anything on the car because it's all getting ripped out. So you have a slow car like you said, and you plan on doing something with it, since you said that everyone else that does nothing complains its still slow. So I look forward to your build thread bud. This should be good.

VitaminE

When did I say high compression pistons is the standard of built? I can tell you buying up the bolt on store is NOT built but bought.

You assume I have no money because I bought this car. I assume you are a dumb ___ for dropping "$75" on a freaking Civic. What did you get back out of it when you sold it?

That build was posted to show what can be done. I've done enough cars to know there is race built and street cars. No one is terrible for liking cruising and shows. But they are showing their ignorance in claiming a 40hp gain with I\H\E.

And just so we're clear, you are a full of ____ douche. You drive a Scion too jack ___.

VitaminE

Btw, did you use some of your gangsta stacks to build that Tanner RWD tC yet?

criminaltc

I'm assuming "built" to you is new engine internals. That's why I said that. It yields no power either. And what about buying a bolt on store? That's all that's really available for the consumers of these vehicles. Custom fabrication isn't even an option due to it yielding no benefit unless "race car".

I'm a dumb a.ss for using an 8th civic as a platform? You're an idiot. I didn't spend 75 either. I spent about 48 like I said. I was saying that this motor/turbo build for this tC2 was about 75 grand. The rest of the car was probably another 50. This is easily a 100,000 dollar car. And you think I don't know that I drive tC's? That civic build took me quite a while. And why are you asking about me selling it? It's in my garage now, where it has been for the last 8 years you stupid lousy f.ck.

And yeah I totally agree with you, like I said in the other post, that these guys are ignorant for all the power they think they are getting from going from a 2.5" exhaust to a 3" exhaust. It's just sad. But you have to understand, that these builds are rear and one of a kind. No one buys a 19K car and sticks double or triple its worth back into it. It's a lack of funds is all it is. Now if someone buys a 125K twin turbo porsche 911, then they stick another 11K in turbo upgrades, that compares the same as someone sticking a few grand into their tC. Sure the porsche yields more comparative power, but you get what I'm saying. You just cannot sit here and say that these tC owners need "step it up" and build their cars. The funds in their bank accounts and lives is just not in the books. So they will continue to I/H/E their cars til the end of time and they will be satisfied with it and boast about the 10hp they gained and how they can outrun the cops now. It's inevitable. I on the other hand made the conscious decision that when I bought my Si, I was going to do a real build with it and do it the right way from the beginning. A turbo civic is something I've always wanted, and I earned it. The K20 is a perfect motor such a build, so I did it. I run 717hp on C16 race fuel. That's more power than any car on the street. I just have it to have it. I put about 100 miles on it each year and it just makes me happy knowing that I have it.

As far as the making my tC rwd, no I never did that. At the time, I had the Si as well, and I was seeing about making one of the two rwd, knowing I was going to build the Si, but then pondered the tC instead. Five years ago, I didn't know as much as I know now about fwd to rwd conversions. So I left the tC1 for looks and didn't build it, and built the civic instead.

So, give these guys a break. They put a few grand into their tC's and yield no power. At least they are happy. And whenever they boast about power they've made, don't you worry, I'm here to let them know they haven't done jack sh.t. But for you to make a new thread with this trying to make all of these guys feel bad, that was lame. And I don't want to hear you say "it's possible, it's possible". Yeah, of course it's possible to make any thing have stupid power. Hell, there's lawnmowers with built stock motors that are going over 100mph. I mean come on... But yes, we all know that these motors are capable of being built, so thank you for reminding everyone. Chris Rado did this a long long time ago, like right when tC's came out. Used the stock motor, dyno'd over 700hp. He ran the NASA class. Also right in the beginning of tC's, there was a drag car called the Hard Target tC with a built 4-cylinder Toyota motor. That dyno'd, oh, hmm, well, yeah, over 1000hp. All 100k builds. These dudes on here that work at starbucks and home depot and are just happy to drive their tC and save enough up for a new intake or exhaust, good for them. They don't need approval from you boss.

VitaminE

So you come into the scene wet behind the ears with a tC asking some dumb questions, get butt hurt and get mommy to buy you a Civic, get your new daddy to buy the parts and teach you what they do, a few years later loaded with minimal amount of knowledge you come back to "show these guys ", and rip on every post someone makes about cold air intakes and exhaust while providing half a.ssed information on turbo leaks and wheel spacers.

I'm glad you said you own a Civic because I would've guessed it anyway. Typical ricer mentality.

I think most people on here saw the original post as what it was. A bit of useful information on some specs of the original engine and a high rise capable horsepower number. No one financially sound or pro engine builder is going to be hanging out on a forum talking about what they can do.

So about this $50k rice rocket........

criminaltc

No. No. No. No. And no. To all of that. And if you want to know about the last five years of my post, just read them, since you are so fascinated by me. You'll see that I'm the only one of this washed up forum (even when it was thriving) that gave a dam.n and solved people's problems.

An 8th civic is hardly rice. And what mentality do I have?

Everyone on here will drool over the article, but not apply it to their everyday life. The article is fine to share. I was just saying, you're tid bit was f.cked up and didn't have to say what you said and bash on these guys.

VitaminE

.....like you do every day.

criminaltc

Naw man. I don't outright bash anybody, until it get's to that point.

VitaminE

Anyway, back on original subject........ You don't have to do what they did. They tried to get as much displacement and high rpm as possible. When building an engine that's what makes it expensive. If you focus your $$ on the block strength you can keep it reasonable.

By reasonable, I mean less than the price of the car ($21k). Total investment would be around that of an average Muscle car with more hp (400-500) and a better power to weight ratio since those things are pigs.

You may have to wear drag radials to keep traction even on the street. Not sure how the traction control would respond with that much power and torque.

But, I know it's not for everyone. I would already start but not trying to void the warranty just yet.

Good luck to anyone brave enough to get more than 250 out their 2arfe. The info for your building blocks (lol) is here.

criminaltc

Haha, yeah, and don't forget to weld your water journals shut too for efficiency.

VitaminE

What page was that on? I saw they welded the heater passages and added a plastic sleeve to ensure even water distribution around the cylinders.

criminaltc

Like 6 or 7 I think. Just crazy the customization they put into that block.

OuterHeaven

I read this article and it was very interesting. I can easily tell the bottom end of the 2AR engine is very similar to the 2AZ. The only thing I wish I had on my 2AZ is the plastic flow diffuser in the water jacket as the 2AZ does not have one. I would definitely agree that these Toyota engines can make some great power AND torque but if the 2nd gen tC 6 speed transmission is anything like the 1st gen then they can’t handle a lot and that will always be the actual limiting factor to reliably make big power numbers without spending big money (Also lack of traction is not always fun either).

My wife just recently got an EVO X and there is something about having a car you can modify and you really do not have to worry about the drivetrain breaking all the time. I really wish the transmission in the tC was stronger as I would be more willing to build up the engine to make more power but I feel like in the end the work is not really worth it when you are just waiting for either 3rd or 4th gear to let go on you.

On a side note. I bet these guys could have saved a lot of time (and money) trying to figure out how to rev higher reliably if they just went with the 2AZ with its simpler valve train. Plus I bet the 2AZ cylinder head is lighter due to it being only one piece.

VitaminE

Think they were pressured to use that engine by SR and TRD to help build the aftermarket support on the 2nd Gen engine. Not to say it's not a good engine.

The EVO stepped it's game up in the trans department from the DSMs. Those things (speaking from experience) were junk.

pelayo54

A little more on the engine here with a video.

How Can A 4-Cylinder Compete With The V8s In Formula D? - Speedhunters

stenger

http://flyingboyfilms.com/privateer

Link to the full doc. Great watch if you've got an hour. I am not a big drift fan (I enjoy it in Forza, I have a few friends who are pretty dang good at drifting and run in the Midwest Drift Union), but I still enjoyed this. More so how someone is determined to compete, and not conform to the standard idea of "throw a LS turbo in it".

biglilsteve

iTrader: (2)

Reading this was fun.