lowering my car
Thread Starter
Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37
From: Deming, NM
lowering my car
alright i have a 92 civic hatch back lowered on skunk2 adjustables and the ride is stiff. but thats MY car. we just got our Tc2 and wanna do this RIGHT. my question is how can i lower the car with keeping the best ride quality. the car will be used for daily driving, i very highly doubt the car will ever see the track being that the car is auto and we're more after show and go good than go fast. but please any and all help would be great
Senior Member
Scikotics
SL Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 9,731
From: Minneapolis, MN
Lowering properly = higher spring rates = worse ride quality.
Fortunately for you I guess most aftermarket suspensions are designed completely wrong and try to run mushy springs so ride quality is not lost. In other words you are not asking to do it right, you are asking to keep ride quality and lower the car... which isnt doing it right.
I dont know what is out for the 2nd gen yet, but the TRD springs on the 1st gen did a pretty good job of balancing looks, ride quality and still handling well. If you are looking to lower a lot though, then you are going to sacrifice handling if you try to keep ride quality close to stock.
I would say look for a milder drop (aka, dont slam it) that has higher spring rates than stock at least. Then you dont sacrifice as much on the handling side.
Fortunately for you I guess most aftermarket suspensions are designed completely wrong and try to run mushy springs so ride quality is not lost. In other words you are not asking to do it right, you are asking to keep ride quality and lower the car... which isnt doing it right.
I dont know what is out for the 2nd gen yet, but the TRD springs on the 1st gen did a pretty good job of balancing looks, ride quality and still handling well. If you are looking to lower a lot though, then you are going to sacrifice handling if you try to keep ride quality close to stock.
I would say look for a milder drop (aka, dont slam it) that has higher spring rates than stock at least. Then you dont sacrifice as much on the handling side.
Senior Member
SL Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 779
From: Canada
Lowering properly = higher spring rates = worse ride quality.
Fortunately for you I guess most aftermarket suspensions are designed completely wrong and try to run mushy springs so ride quality is not lost. In other words you are not asking to do it right, you are asking to keep ride quality and lower the car... which isnt doing it right.
I dont know what is out for the 2nd gen yet, but the TRD springs on the 1st gen did a pretty good job of balancing looks, ride quality and still handling well. If you are looking to lower a lot though, then you are going to sacrifice handling if you try to keep ride quality close to stock.
I would say look for a milder drop (aka, dont slam it) that has higher spring rates than stock at least. Then you dont sacrifice as much on the handling side.
Fortunately for you I guess most aftermarket suspensions are designed completely wrong and try to run mushy springs so ride quality is not lost. In other words you are not asking to do it right, you are asking to keep ride quality and lower the car... which isnt doing it right.
I dont know what is out for the 2nd gen yet, but the TRD springs on the 1st gen did a pretty good job of balancing looks, ride quality and still handling well. If you are looking to lower a lot though, then you are going to sacrifice handling if you try to keep ride quality close to stock.
I would say look for a milder drop (aka, dont slam it) that has higher spring rates than stock at least. Then you dont sacrifice as much on the handling side.
Lowering properly = higher spring rates + better dampers (shocks/struts) = comparable ride quality
If lowering a car was just changing springs, you'd have more people cutting springs. But really, to do it properly, you have to match shock/strut to spring rate and then to the car to achieve and overall package. Just changing springs will make the car ride rough as it just amplifies the spring rate on a damper that can't support it, so the spring is in control. But anyone that knows suspension will tell you that majority of your handling/ride characteristics are defined by your shock/strut, not your spring. A good damper will make your car hold the road better and improve the ride better then springs will.
Without getting too much into it (which would be a novel if I started), change your springs with TRD if you want to lower and keep a similar ride to that of stock. If you want a bigger drop or different springs, then you need to consider shocks in the highest regard, as aftermarket springs wont be engineered along side your stock shock/strut to insure they will work together properly or not.
In the example of your Civic, your Junk2 coilovers are sleeves, so the spring rates are just whatever was on the shelf. Your dampers are probably stock, so they are designed to handle about 100-200lbs/in of force. The Junk2 springs provide probably in the range of 400-600lbs/in of rate. Just looking at that on paper shows they don't work together. But, your ride quality would probably have been improved if you used a set of Koni's capable of 400-600lbs/in.
The problem is most people don't do it right, so there are a lot of reviews from people complaining about ride quality being poor. I've had 8 lowered cars with an average of 2 suspension systems per car, some 3, and I can tell you that springs and shocks need to work together for a "suspension system" to work properly.
Get where I'm going?
Thread Starter
Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37
From: Deming, NM
alright yeah i know what you mean. i'm thinking of getting the full tein suspension package. which would be the shocks and springs together. or would it be better to run TRD.i'm not really looking for a big drop maybe an inch all around, but keep in mind i want to be running 19's maybe something along the line of a 225/45/19 or even a 235/45/19. and yeah i'm not really too worried about my civic, that's my town car and work will be done to that one later.
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 173
From: Jupiter, FL
i have Tein springs and i have a decent drop with them. this car is my daily driver and it rides surprisingly smooth. I'm pretty sure the full Tein suspension is more that capable of giving you a great drop with great ride comfort.
Senior Member
Scikotics
SL Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 9,731
From: Minneapolis, MN
1st one... you are not understanding how dampers and springs work together.
Of course you need different dampers when you change spring rates. But that does NOT equal comparable ride quality, period. You change damper valving (or more often dampers as a whole) to accomodate a higher suspension frequency on the vehicle. While this will prevent repetitive bounce cycles when you hit a bump, this does not make the ride any softer. That is impossible, since the springs dictate how hard the ride will feel. A 500lb/in non-progressive spring will be a 500lb/in spring no matter what damper you run. So matched with the proper damper, that setup WILL be substantially harsher than a 200lb/in spring. A damper can make the setup feel harsher, but not softer, than the spring dictates.
Now, if you compare different dampers on the same setup, then some can feel better than others. For example, if high speed valving is set up correctly in relation to med and low speed valving, it can feel better over harsh bumps that a different damper. But still, you are talking differences in dampers for a given spring setup. That setup will still not be as compliant as a lower spring rate will be.
The facts above are why so many spring companies make really low springs with really low spring rates. They are attempting to keep the ride soft so all the kids wont cry that their ride is rougher. Handling is what is given up for this.
Of course you need different dampers when you change spring rates. But that does NOT equal comparable ride quality, period. You change damper valving (or more often dampers as a whole) to accomodate a higher suspension frequency on the vehicle. While this will prevent repetitive bounce cycles when you hit a bump, this does not make the ride any softer. That is impossible, since the springs dictate how hard the ride will feel. A 500lb/in non-progressive spring will be a 500lb/in spring no matter what damper you run. So matched with the proper damper, that setup WILL be substantially harsher than a 200lb/in spring. A damper can make the setup feel harsher, but not softer, than the spring dictates.
Now, if you compare different dampers on the same setup, then some can feel better than others. For example, if high speed valving is set up correctly in relation to med and low speed valving, it can feel better over harsh bumps that a different damper. But still, you are talking differences in dampers for a given spring setup. That setup will still not be as compliant as a lower spring rate will be.
The facts above are why so many spring companies make really low springs with really low spring rates. They are attempting to keep the ride soft so all the kids wont cry that their ride is rougher. Handling is what is given up for this.
Senior Member
Scikotics
SL Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 9,731
From: Minneapolis, MN
On the 1st gen, the tein setup (other than the coilovers) are horrible handling wise. His comments above about the ride quality being surprisingly smooth is exactly why... the spring rates are way too low for a big drop. In addition the stechs and htechs also drop the car so far that the suspension geometry is thrown out of whack. This means regardless of the spring rates, it would not handle nearly as well as it could simply because it is dropped to far for the suspension design. If you just want to lower it a bunch, that is fine, just know that the handling potential is low (and very likely worse than stock for many reasons) People "feel" like it handles better simply because the CG is lower, but it is simply not the case.
Sounds like you are in it just to tool around town and make it look good, so the above may not be a concern for you.
Sounds like you are in it just to tool around town and make it look good, so the above may not be a concern for you.
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Scinergy
Team ScioNRG
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,569
From: 5280
1st one... you are not understanding how dampers and springs work together.
Of course you need different dampers when you change spring rates. But that does NOT equal comparable ride quality, period. You change damper valving (or more often dampers as a whole) to accomodate a higher suspension frequency on the vehicle. While this will prevent repetitive bounce cycles when you hit a bump, this does not make the ride any softer. That is impossible, since the springs dictate how hard the ride will feel. A 500lb/in non-progressive spring will be a 500lb/in spring no matter what damper you run. So matched with the proper damper, that setup WILL be substantially harsher than a 200lb/in spring. A damper can make the setup feel harsher, but not softer, than the spring dictates.
Now, if you compare different dampers on the same setup, then some can feel better than others. For example, if high speed valving is set up correctly in relation to med and low speed valving, it can feel better over harsh bumps that a different damper. But still, you are talking differences in dampers for a given spring setup. That setup will still not be as compliant as a lower spring rate will be.
The facts above are why so many spring companies make really low springs with really low spring rates. They are attempting to keep the ride soft so all the kids wont cry that their ride is rougher. Handling is what is given up for this.
Of course you need different dampers when you change spring rates. But that does NOT equal comparable ride quality, period. You change damper valving (or more often dampers as a whole) to accomodate a higher suspension frequency on the vehicle. While this will prevent repetitive bounce cycles when you hit a bump, this does not make the ride any softer. That is impossible, since the springs dictate how hard the ride will feel. A 500lb/in non-progressive spring will be a 500lb/in spring no matter what damper you run. So matched with the proper damper, that setup WILL be substantially harsher than a 200lb/in spring. A damper can make the setup feel harsher, but not softer, than the spring dictates.
Now, if you compare different dampers on the same setup, then some can feel better than others. For example, if high speed valving is set up correctly in relation to med and low speed valving, it can feel better over harsh bumps that a different damper. But still, you are talking differences in dampers for a given spring setup. That setup will still not be as compliant as a lower spring rate will be.
The facts above are why so many spring companies make really low springs with really low spring rates. They are attempting to keep the ride soft so all the kids wont cry that their ride is rougher. Handling is what is given up for this.
^^^ For the other peeps in this thread... you might want to re-read what this guy right here had to say. There are some of us here on SL that have a lot of experience... and generally of that group, we all have our areas of expertise. Mine happens to be in building early model restorations and street-rods, and a lot of early and late model Porsches.
In this thread, and others on here especially with import cars... if you have a question about suspension geometry, he knows what he's talking about.
One of the many perks of being part of the SL community... getting valuable information for free.
Senior Member
SL Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 779
From: Canada
1st one... you are not understanding how dampers and springs work together.
Of course you need different dampers when you change spring rates. But that does NOT equal comparable ride quality, period. You change damper valving (or more often dampers as a whole) to accomodate a higher suspension frequency on the vehicle. While this will prevent repetitive bounce cycles when you hit a bump, this does not make the ride any softer. That is impossible, since the springs dictate how hard the ride will feel. A 500lb/in non-progressive spring will be a 500lb/in spring no matter what damper you run. So matched with the proper damper, that setup WILL be substantially harsher than a 200lb/in spring. A damper can make the setup feel harsher, but not softer, than the spring dictates.
Now, if you compare different dampers on the same setup, then some can feel better than others. For example, if high speed valving is set up correctly in relation to med and low speed valving, it can feel better over harsh bumps that a different damper. But still, you are talking differences in dampers for a given spring setup. That setup will still not be as compliant as a lower spring rate will be.
The facts above are why so many spring companies make really low springs with really low spring rates. They are attempting to keep the ride soft so all the kids wont cry that their ride is rougher. Handling is what is given up for this.
Of course you need different dampers when you change spring rates. But that does NOT equal comparable ride quality, period. You change damper valving (or more often dampers as a whole) to accomodate a higher suspension frequency on the vehicle. While this will prevent repetitive bounce cycles when you hit a bump, this does not make the ride any softer. That is impossible, since the springs dictate how hard the ride will feel. A 500lb/in non-progressive spring will be a 500lb/in spring no matter what damper you run. So matched with the proper damper, that setup WILL be substantially harsher than a 200lb/in spring. A damper can make the setup feel harsher, but not softer, than the spring dictates.
Now, if you compare different dampers on the same setup, then some can feel better than others. For example, if high speed valving is set up correctly in relation to med and low speed valving, it can feel better over harsh bumps that a different damper. But still, you are talking differences in dampers for a given spring setup. That setup will still not be as compliant as a lower spring rate will be.
The facts above are why so many spring companies make really low springs with really low spring rates. They are attempting to keep the ride soft so all the kids wont cry that their ride is rougher. Handling is what is given up for this.
The point I was trying to get across was that it's a system and should be treated as such. If you re-read, I stated it's comparable, not soft. I never said it would ride like its on air...
The only time spring rates will become excessively noticeable even with a good damper is when the rate itself is higher then the energy the car exerts on the spring during normal to aggressive driving. Often, aftermarket spring rates are selected for a car based on increasing stock values by a set percentage. So, to keep things simple, Tein might just take stock and ad 10-20% based on the "feel" they want to give consumers or based on the drop they are providing. With only a 10-20% increase in rate, if you were to change dampers to something capable of handling that rate, you would likely not notice very much if any change in the ride of the vehicle.
But, if your car stock is say 100lbs/in and you put springs that are 800-1000lbs/in, the car is going to ride rough. But again, it depends on what the car exerts on the spring during the driving dynamic.
In short, without knowing all the forces acting on the car during every aspect of movement, you wont be able to exactly say it will or will not ride rougher. You'll just be assuming.
Just so this doesn't turn into a bash fest, I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just stating that you can't say whether or not it will be worse without doing the supporting math behind it. In this case, if he were to select off the shelf components and say, Tokico blues, you'd likely notice no difference from stock...maybe a hair firmer (5%?). It wouldn't be jaw breaking though, so to say it rides rougher is an opinion only the owner can give.
Senior Member
Scikotics
SL Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 9,731
From: Minneapolis, MN
A firmer spring on the same car will ride rougher. That is a given. How much you "notice it" depends on the increase in rates. There is no math that needs to be done to show that. You are sitting on much stiffer springs. Go jump on a feather bed and then jump on a piece of thick, hard rubber. Same difference.
Stock 1st gen springs were somewhere in the 140lb/250lb range F/R from what I recall. Tein SS-P's for example are 390/559. It is a huge increase in ride harshness regardless of where the dampers are set. Dampers only affect how fast weight is transferred, not how much weight is transferred or how far the spring will compress over a given bump. You can over damp, and make it feel much harsher over bumps, or under damp and feel it bounce like a ball. But if you pick the right damper for the spring, and are running stiffer springs.. you will have a harsher ride that will be noticed. As I talked about earlier, if the high speed valving is set just right, you can tune out some of the abrupt bump harshness, but only a bit. And since no one in this thread is even talking about finding double adjustable, let alone quadruple adjustable dampers, you get what comes out of the box.
You are right, tein only increases stiffness a small amount on their lowering springs (not their coilovers). And that is very poor design. If you lower a car 2 inches, yet only increase rates by a small amount, you have one horribly designed system. It will seem compliant, which is what a lot of people care about primarilly besides looks. However, you have not reduced the travel the suspension will see by nearly enough for the drop. When you hit really big bumps, or corner hard, you are riding on the bump stops, which equal VERY high spring rates.
So like I said, to drop PROPERLY, spring rates should increase by a decent amount for the drop chosen. In that case, ride quality will diminish substantially. I can tell you that moving from TRD springs to SS-P coilovers is very noticeable change in ride quality.. not a small one.
So like I said, lowering springs that do not ride much stiffer than stock are only that way because they are giving up a lot of handling performance to do so. Tein h techs drop about 2 inches, yet only increase rates to 185/300 or so. So they are throwing away a lot of handling just to try to keep ride compliance.
I will say that at least the tein drop springs keep the ratio between the front and rear rates somewhat close to account for the difference in motion ratio and the distribution of vehicle weight, but they are way too low and too soft as well. If you want to drop the car low and dont care much at all if it handles well, then the are ok I guess. But that is up to what the driver wants to do with the car.
Stock 1st gen springs were somewhere in the 140lb/250lb range F/R from what I recall. Tein SS-P's for example are 390/559. It is a huge increase in ride harshness regardless of where the dampers are set. Dampers only affect how fast weight is transferred, not how much weight is transferred or how far the spring will compress over a given bump. You can over damp, and make it feel much harsher over bumps, or under damp and feel it bounce like a ball. But if you pick the right damper for the spring, and are running stiffer springs.. you will have a harsher ride that will be noticed. As I talked about earlier, if the high speed valving is set just right, you can tune out some of the abrupt bump harshness, but only a bit. And since no one in this thread is even talking about finding double adjustable, let alone quadruple adjustable dampers, you get what comes out of the box.
You are right, tein only increases stiffness a small amount on their lowering springs (not their coilovers). And that is very poor design. If you lower a car 2 inches, yet only increase rates by a small amount, you have one horribly designed system. It will seem compliant, which is what a lot of people care about primarilly besides looks. However, you have not reduced the travel the suspension will see by nearly enough for the drop. When you hit really big bumps, or corner hard, you are riding on the bump stops, which equal VERY high spring rates.
So like I said, to drop PROPERLY, spring rates should increase by a decent amount for the drop chosen. In that case, ride quality will diminish substantially. I can tell you that moving from TRD springs to SS-P coilovers is very noticeable change in ride quality.. not a small one.
So like I said, lowering springs that do not ride much stiffer than stock are only that way because they are giving up a lot of handling performance to do so. Tein h techs drop about 2 inches, yet only increase rates to 185/300 or so. So they are throwing away a lot of handling just to try to keep ride compliance.
I will say that at least the tein drop springs keep the ratio between the front and rear rates somewhat close to account for the difference in motion ratio and the distribution of vehicle weight, but they are way too low and too soft as well. If you want to drop the car low and dont care much at all if it handles well, then the are ok I guess. But that is up to what the driver wants to do with the car.
Senior Member
Scikotics
SL Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 9,731
From: Minneapolis, MN
And no, I dont see this as a bash fest. Just a conversation that at least has more real tech info in it now than most suspension threads on here tend to 
We both agree for the most part on how the system works.. but I do disagree on how much you notice the change, even with the right dampers. I can set my coilovers super soft or really hard. No matter what, it is a ton harsher than stock or even the trd springs Then add the pillowball mounts up front and it just adds to that... but is worth it for what I am trying to get out of the car.
We both agree for the most part on how the system works.. but I do disagree on how much you notice the change, even with the right dampers. I can set my coilovers super soft or really hard. No matter what, it is a ton harsher than stock or even the trd springs Then add the pillowball mounts up front and it just adds to that... but is worth it for what I am trying to get out of the car.
Thread Starter
Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37
From: Deming, NM
ok this is getting way way to crazy for what i am looking for. you guys have taught me way far more than what i have asked for and i am very greatfull.
like for real this is awesome and i have never gotten this much knowledge from just a simple question. buthere this is what i am looking for..... i like the name tein, i don't have cash to throw here and there but if i have to throw cash on a $1400 tein spring and shock kit i will... yes i understand i would just be paying mostly for the name but i wanna make this a show and not so much go car. what i WANT is a one inch drop.... i don't want to sacrifice much ride quality..... i don't want to be taking hardcore turns to compete at 1 g force... just some thing to handle a little better than stock... but won't sacrifice the ride quality that me and my lady have when we take the car out on a friday night cruise, know what i mean ?
like for real this is awesome and i have never gotten this much knowledge from just a simple question. buthere this is what i am looking for..... i like the name tein, i don't have cash to throw here and there but if i have to throw cash on a $1400 tein spring and shock kit i will... yes i understand i would just be paying mostly for the name but i wanna make this a show and not so much go car. what i WANT is a one inch drop.... i don't want to sacrifice much ride quality..... i don't want to be taking hardcore turns to compete at 1 g force... just some thing to handle a little better than stock... but won't sacrifice the ride quality that me and my lady have when we take the car out on a friday night cruise, know what i mean ?
Senior Member
Scikotics
SL Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 9,731
From: Minneapolis, MN
You should definitely get TRD springs then. I am not sure the specs on the 2g tc springs available, but the TRD springs on the 1st gen are probably the best balance between handling and ride quality. For the first gen they lower 1.3 inches approximately, which is well within the bounds of an optimal drop for handling purposes on the 1st gen tC. So they look good, they handle well but arent so aggressive that they ride rough. Plus, you can run them on stock struts. I ran mine from 15,000 miles until I went to SS-P's at about 60,000 miles without issue. So for a couple hundred bucks, depending on where you shop (TRD sparks had the first gens for about $150), you get pretty much what you are looking for. Their springs are made by Eibach and are good quality. TRD sparks is one of the better places to buy trd stuff since they have good prices. They dont have springs listed for the 2011 yet, but you could call to find out.
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SL Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 406
From: Hollister, CA
ok this is getting way way to crazy for what i am looking for. you guys have taught me way far more than what i have asked for and i am very greatfull.
like for real this is awesome and i have never gotten this much knowledge from just a simple question. buthere this is what i am looking for..... i like the name tein, i don't have cash to throw here and there but if i have to throw cash on a $1400 tein spring and shock kit i will... yes i understand i would just be paying mostly for the name but i wanna make this a show and not so much go car. what i WANT is a one inch drop.... i don't want to sacrifice much ride quality..... i don't want to be taking hardcore turns to compete at 1 g force... just some thing to handle a little better than stock... but won't sacrifice the ride quality that me and my lady have when we take the car out on a friday night cruise, know what i mean ?
like for real this is awesome and i have never gotten this much knowledge from just a simple question. buthere this is what i am looking for..... i like the name tein, i don't have cash to throw here and there but if i have to throw cash on a $1400 tein spring and shock kit i will... yes i understand i would just be paying mostly for the name but i wanna make this a show and not so much go car. what i WANT is a one inch drop.... i don't want to sacrifice much ride quality..... i don't want to be taking hardcore turns to compete at 1 g force... just some thing to handle a little better than stock... but won't sacrifice the ride quality that me and my lady have when we take the car out on a friday night cruise, know what i mean ?
Senior Member
SL Member
Scinergy
Scion Evolution
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 604
Well, just to help out with options, here is a list of available springs I have found.
http://www.fastscions.com/scion-tc2-...g-springs.aspx
H & R springs
http://www.racingsolution.com/scion/...category_id=82
Eibach springs
http://www.ptuning.com/html/search-r...i&cmbYear=2011
Tein springs
I ordered a set of Tein springs from ptuning. Got 5% off for being a scionlife member (discount code ptscionlife). Plus it was free shipping. I haven't seen a sale for the TRD springs yet and don't know the pricing, but hope the other info helps.
http://www.fastscions.com/scion-tc2-...g-springs.aspx
H & R springs
http://www.racingsolution.com/scion/...category_id=82
Eibach springs
http://www.ptuning.com/html/search-r...i&cmbYear=2011
Tein springs
I ordered a set of Tein springs from ptuning. Got 5% off for being a scionlife member (discount code ptscionlife). Plus it was free shipping. I haven't seen a sale for the TRD springs yet and don't know the pricing, but hope the other info helps.
Senior Member
SL Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 406
From: Hollister, CA
Well, just to help out with options, here is a list of available springs I have found.
http://www.fastscions.com/scion-tc2-...g-springs.aspx
H & R springs
http://www.racingsolution.com/scion/...category_id=82
Eibach springs
http://www.ptuning.com/html/search-r...i&cmbYear=2011
Tein springs
I ordered a set of Tein springs from ptuning. Got 5% off for being a scionlife member (discount code ptscionlife). Plus it was free shipping. I haven't seen a sale for the TRD springs yet and don't know the pricing, but hope the other info helps.
http://www.fastscions.com/scion-tc2-...g-springs.aspx
H & R springs
http://www.racingsolution.com/scion/...category_id=82
Eibach springs
http://www.ptuning.com/html/search-r...i&cmbYear=2011
Tein springs
I ordered a set of Tein springs from ptuning. Got 5% off for being a scionlife member (discount code ptscionlife). Plus it was free shipping. I haven't seen a sale for the TRD springs yet and don't know the pricing, but hope the other info helps.
Senior Member
SL Member
Scinergy
Scion Evolution
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 604
The springs I ordered are not available yet. Tein is still in the process of making them and they are not expected to be here until the end of December, possible early January. I will take pics and post after the install.
Senior Member
SL Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 406
From: Hollister, CA