Request for Confirmation and Assistance...
05-11-2011, 02:39 AM
#1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 5
Request for Confirmation and Assistance...
Hi there; I've been on the forum for a period of time but have been silent and covert. Absolutely excellent support site and a tremendously useful group[!]. I need some advice and confirmation.
I just purchased a 2011 TC; Black [202], 6spd manual trans-axle. I'm wanting to update the tire and rim package but hoping to keep the [unsprung] weight and rotational mass to an absolute minimum. Can someone assist me with this setup [and yes - I did some research on the site as well
] and confirm if there are any issues or concerns:
Front: 18 x 7.5, 48 offset [tire: 225/45/18 - stock] - rolling diameter 25.9
Rear: 18 x 9, 35 offset [tire: 255/40/18 - not stock] - rolling diameter 26
Now - I'm certain everyone is asking the question of why I am so severely staggering the front and rear. Well, I am compensating for a mistake.
My wife [as wonderful as she is] bought me a set of RPF1s [silver] as a gift. However, she purchased four rims [18 x 7.5] with a 48 offset. Hey - she tried, and that's what really counts. Now the fronts aren't too bad, but the rears are set too far inside the wheel well.
So - I thought about a 10mm spacer in the rear, or simply keeping the front 18x7.5, 48 offset - and purchasing two new rims at 18x9, 38 offset for the rear of the vehicle. So; three questions:
1] Will a 18x9, 35 offset [tire: 255/40/18] work in the rear - Or, is there an alternate rim and tire configuration I should investigate?
2] Is it a better choice to use a [10mm] spacer in the rear and simply augment the offset inorganically [or go with the 18x9]?
3] There is a very minor difference in the rotational diameter of the tire - would this be an issue to the Traction Control?
Thanks again for a wonderful community.
Regards,
LOW_ETS
I just purchased a 2011 TC; Black [202], 6spd manual trans-axle. I'm wanting to update the tire and rim package but hoping to keep the [unsprung] weight and rotational mass to an absolute minimum. Can someone assist me with this setup [and yes - I did some research on the site as well
] and confirm if there are any issues or concerns:Front: 18 x 7.5, 48 offset [tire: 225/45/18 - stock] - rolling diameter 25.9
Rear: 18 x 9, 35 offset [tire: 255/40/18 - not stock] - rolling diameter 26
Now - I'm certain everyone is asking the question of why I am so severely staggering the front and rear. Well, I am compensating for a mistake.
My wife [as wonderful as she is] bought me a set of RPF1s [silver] as a gift. However, she purchased four rims [18 x 7.5] with a 48 offset. Hey - she tried, and that's what really counts.
Now the fronts aren't too bad, but the rears are set too far inside the wheel well. So - I thought about a 10mm spacer in the rear, or simply keeping the front 18x7.5, 48 offset - and purchasing two new rims at 18x9, 38 offset for the rear of the vehicle. So; three questions:
1] Will a 18x9, 35 offset [tire: 255/40/18] work in the rear - Or, is there an alternate rim and tire configuration I should investigate?
2] Is it a better choice to use a [10mm] spacer in the rear and simply augment the offset inorganically [or go with the 18x9]?
3] There is a very minor difference in the rotational diameter of the tire - would this be an issue to the Traction Control?
Thanks again for a wonderful community.
Regards,
LOW_ETS
Last edited by low_ets; 05-11-2011 at 03:01 AM.
05-11-2011, 03:32 AM
#2
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,075
Start over…return the wheels. Whatever wheel you buy, you want a +39-mm offset. The further you go from the +39-mm, the worse your suspension geometry will get…and potentially your handling. My wheels have a +40-mm offset. Do not stagger the wheels on a FWD car. All cars are designed with under steer. By putting larger wheels on the back, you will make it even worse.
Spacers are a last resort also…don’t use them if at all possible.
You’ve got the wrong stuff and adding more wrong stuff will not make it right. There is an adage here…two wrongs don’t make a right.
Spacers are a last resort also…don’t use them if at all possible.
You’ve got the wrong stuff and adding more wrong stuff will not make it right. There is an adage here…two wrongs don’t make a right.
05-11-2011, 05:11 AM
#4
It sounds like you're just trying to use the 7.5" width RPF1s because they were a gift. I'd get the same wheels with a wider width since the RPF1s 7.5" only come in the 48 offset. You have plenty of room in the wheel wells.
If you want to keep 7.5" width (to stay in a specific racing class for example), then go with spacers and longer lugs. The RPF1s are nice wheels.
If you want to keep 7.5" width (to stay in a specific racing class for example), then go with spacers and longer lugs. The RPF1s are nice wheels.
05-11-2011, 10:45 AM
#5
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 779
Good choice in wheels! She has good taste...
The wheels CAN work, but should they? No. If you can return them still, I'd pickup the 18x9 +35 offset as that should work very well at giving you a strong stance and good fitment.
Contrary to what has been said in this thread already, offset simply refers to the distance from the center of the wheel. If you are running a wheel that is wider than factory, your required offset could be drastically different than what came stock. That's OK. Offset wont affect your suspension geometry, width and offset will. BUT, will it affect your handling, drivability, or make the car unsafe? NO. Far from it! Its just used for properly fitting wheels.
So, back to your current wheels. If you do plan on keeping them, to achieve even the same look as factory is right now, you would need to correct the offset back to stock, since the new wheels are actually stock width. Since stock is +39 and those wheels are +48, you would need a 9mm spacer. As those don't exist, you could easily use a 10-15mm and get the same/better results.
If you do go this route, I suggest H&R Spacers as they include the studs and are completely hubcentric. There is no application for the 2011 tC yet, but the specs are the same for, lets say, a 2009 Lexus IS250 which H&R does have an application for.
Hope this helps!
The wheels CAN work, but should they? No. If you can return them still, I'd pickup the 18x9 +35 offset as that should work very well at giving you a strong stance and good fitment.
Contrary to what has been said in this thread already, offset simply refers to the distance from the center of the wheel. If you are running a wheel that is wider than factory, your required offset could be drastically different than what came stock. That's OK. Offset wont affect your suspension geometry, width and offset will. BUT, will it affect your handling, drivability, or make the car unsafe? NO. Far from it! Its just used for properly fitting wheels.
So, back to your current wheels. If you do plan on keeping them, to achieve even the same look as factory is right now, you would need to correct the offset back to stock, since the new wheels are actually stock width. Since stock is +39 and those wheels are +48, you would need a 9mm spacer. As those don't exist, you could easily use a 10-15mm and get the same/better results.
If you do go this route, I suggest H&R Spacers as they include the studs and are completely hubcentric. There is no application for the 2011 tC yet, but the specs are the same for, lets say, a 2009 Lexus IS250 which H&R does have an application for.
Hope this helps!
05-11-2011, 12:41 PM
#6
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,075
Contrary to what has been said in this thread already, offset simply refers to the distance from the center of the wheel. If you are running a wheel that is wider than factory, your required offset could be drastically different than what came stock. That's OK. Offset wont affect your suspension geometry, width and offset will. BUT, will it affect your handling, drivability, or make the car unsafe? NO. Far from it! Its just used for properly fitting wheels.
One of the most important measurements on the wheel is the offset. When the car manufacturers when from the two conical wheel bearings in the front wheels and went to the single double row wheel bearing packet. The distance between the two races (riding surfaces of the ***** or rollers) became very small. Now it became VERY important for the centerline of your disc brake and the centerline of your wheel to ride right in the middle between those two wheel bearing races. In the olden days, you had 3 or 4 inches to play with…now there is about an inch! Any variation in the location of the wheel, transfers the load by a percentage of that distance. If you move the wheel out by 0.10” (this is less than 1/8”) on that 4 inches, that is only 2.5% of the load transferred. Now on the new bearing packets, that percentage becomes 10%. When you start adding just 1-g of loading on a 3000-lbs car, you start talking some serious loading. Now add in your 10-mm spacer and you have transferred ALL of your load. 100% of your load will be on that one race and 0% on the other.
Don’t f+++ing do it. 1stOne is not an engineer, and does not know what he is talking about.
Now we have to go into the geometry of the suspension…this just compounds (multiplies) the aforementioned scenario. Do you guys want all the engineering mumbo jumbo? I can and will justify what I’ve said
The offset of the wheel is the single most important dimension on that wheel…heed my words and keep it as close to stock (+39-mm) as F(easibly) possible.
05-11-2011, 01:05 PM
#7
Junior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 10
This guy is NOT an engineer and is somewhat less than stupid when it comes to understanding engineering concepts.
One of the most important measurements on the wheel is the offset. When the car manufacturers when from the two conical wheel bearings in the front wheels and went to the single double row wheel bearing packet. The distance between the two races (riding surfaces of the ***** or rollers) became very small. Now it became VERY important for the centerline of your disc brake and the centerline of your wheel to ride right in the middle between those two wheel bearing races. In the olden days, you had 3 or 4 inches to play with…now there is about an inch! Any variation in the location of the wheel, transfers the load by a percentage of that distance. If you move the wheel out by 0.10” (this is less than 1/8”) on that 4 inches, that is only 2.5% of the load transferred. Now on the new bearing packets, that percentage becomes 10%. When you start adding just 1-g of loading on a 3000-lbs car, you start talking some serious loading. Now add in your 10-mm spacer and you have transferred ALL of your load. 100% of your load will be on that one race and 0% on the other.
Don’t f+++ing do it. 1stOne is not an engineer, and does not know what he is talking about.
Now we have to go into the geometry of the suspension…this just compounds (multiplies) the aforementioned scenario. Do you guys want all the engineering mumbo jumbo? I can and will justify what I’ve said
The offset of the wheel is the single most important dimension on that wheel…heed my words and keep it as close to stock (+39-mm) as F(easibly) possible.
One of the most important measurements on the wheel is the offset. When the car manufacturers when from the two conical wheel bearings in the front wheels and went to the single double row wheel bearing packet. The distance between the two races (riding surfaces of the ***** or rollers) became very small. Now it became VERY important for the centerline of your disc brake and the centerline of your wheel to ride right in the middle between those two wheel bearing races. In the olden days, you had 3 or 4 inches to play with…now there is about an inch! Any variation in the location of the wheel, transfers the load by a percentage of that distance. If you move the wheel out by 0.10” (this is less than 1/8”) on that 4 inches, that is only 2.5% of the load transferred. Now on the new bearing packets, that percentage becomes 10%. When you start adding just 1-g of loading on a 3000-lbs car, you start talking some serious loading. Now add in your 10-mm spacer and you have transferred ALL of your load. 100% of your load will be on that one race and 0% on the other.
Don’t f+++ing do it. 1stOne is not an engineer, and does not know what he is talking about.
Now we have to go into the geometry of the suspension…this just compounds (multiplies) the aforementioned scenario. Do you guys want all the engineering mumbo jumbo? I can and will justify what I’ve said
The offset of the wheel is the single most important dimension on that wheel…heed my words and keep it as close to stock (+39-mm) as F(easibly) possible.
I thought wider tires would improve stability but lower cornering speed and that there was a sweet spot in between, am I wrong?
Thank you for your time
05-11-2011, 02:13 PM
#8
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,075
If you are going to track your car, I understand that there is a wider selection of tires in 18” than in 19”. Check the rules first…and use the widest wheel the rules allow you. I’ve got 9” wide wheels on my car. They fit with the correct offset. It looks like you can get a 9.5” to fit, but I am very hesitant to say that a 10” will fit on the rear. Go check out my profile and look into my garage there. I have pictures there on how a 19 X 9 wheel with a +40-mm offset looks on the car with 255/35ZR19 tires. You will get an ideal of how “flush” the wheels look.
Stock offset is +39-mm…so you will be OK with an offset of +38-mm to +40-mm. Mine are +40-mm.
A forged wheel will be lighter than a cast wheel…look for forged wheels if at all possible. If they don’t say that they are forged, they are not! Forging is more expensive than casting…so, you do get what you pay for in this case. My wheels (19X9) are forged and weigh 22.7-lbs. The stock wheels (18X7.5) weigh 26.7-lbs. and the TRD wheels (19X8.0) weigh 24.1-lbs.
Make sure the rolling diameter of your tire is the same as the OEM tire. This is important for your suspension geometry…and your speedo readings. Michelin gives you revolutions per mile…OEM is just over 800 rev/mi. Over 90% of the weight of the tire is in the tread. So, if your diameter is the same (and you are trying real hard to keep it that way), only the width of the tire will add weigh to your unsprung weigh. My wider 19” wheel/tire combination is several pounds lighter than the OEM 18” wheel/tire.
Stock offset is +39-mm…so you will be OK with an offset of +38-mm to +40-mm. Mine are +40-mm.
A forged wheel will be lighter than a cast wheel…look for forged wheels if at all possible. If they don’t say that they are forged, they are not! Forging is more expensive than casting…so, you do get what you pay for in this case. My wheels (19X9) are forged and weigh 22.7-lbs. The stock wheels (18X7.5) weigh 26.7-lbs. and the TRD wheels (19X8.0) weigh 24.1-lbs.
Make sure the rolling diameter of your tire is the same as the OEM tire. This is important for your suspension geometry…and your speedo readings. Michelin gives you revolutions per mile…OEM is just over 800 rev/mi. Over 90% of the weight of the tire is in the tread. So, if your diameter is the same (and you are trying real hard to keep it that way), only the width of the tire will add weigh to your unsprung weigh. My wider 19” wheel/tire combination is several pounds lighter than the OEM 18” wheel/tire.
Last edited by 2tCornot2tC; 05-11-2011 at 02:15 PM. Reason: replaced smiley face for the 8) so I changed it to 8.0)
05-11-2011, 02:18 PM
#9
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Join Date: Aug 2010
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While your right I'm not an engineer....I do work with 12 of them that help design the parts you enjoy installing on your car so much.
Do as you wish. I only track my car and have it tested as it sits (with an offset different than stock! OMG WTF BBQ!)
I like my comments and stand by them.
05-11-2011, 02:57 PM
#10
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First of all, you don’t have to sir me (mister)…we are very informal here. But thank you anyway.
As an engineer, I am a consultant…I give advice to people that hire me. You get it here for free. But, like you, I have also found that people choose to ignore engineering advice…either they do not understand what they have been advised or flat out choose to ignore the advice. You can’t imagine the joy I have in saying, “I told you so!” Even though you say you work with engineers, it does not sound like you take their advice. Or you are asking them the wrong questions. Or you think that looks (again your own interpretation of good looks) are more important than performance. To me, performance looks great!
As an engineer, I am a consultant…I give advice to people that hire me. You get it here for free. But, like you, I have also found that people choose to ignore engineering advice…either they do not understand what they have been advised or flat out choose to ignore the advice. You can’t imagine the joy I have in saying, “I told you so!” Even though you say you work with engineers, it does not sound like you take their advice. Or you are asking them the wrong questions. Or you think that looks (again your own interpretation of good looks) are more important than performance. To me, performance looks great!
05-11-2011, 03:05 PM
#11
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 34
It looks to me like the importance of wheel offset has been over-stated and under-stated in this thread. The reality is that load on the bearings is directly affected by the distance from the wheels centre line to where it is mounted. That being said, slight variance from the stock specifications will not likely cause a catastrophic failure of the wheel bearings. If the factory wheel offset is +39mm, would I recommend running a +20mm offset, or a +55mm offset? No. Would I worry about installing a wheel with an offset of +35mm or +45mm? Nope.
Bearings in the wheel hub are designed to accept load perpendicularly (the weight of the car pushing straight down), and as 2tCornot2tC mentioned it is ideal to have the load split evenly between the two bearing sets. This is true, but this load split changes when you go around a corner, so right away these bearings have to be designed to be robust enough to take load on an angle as well as perpendicularly. In the end, driving solely on the factory wheels or wheels with the same offset might mean that you can drive 150,000kms before bearing failure, while driving on a wheel with a slightly different offset might mean you only get 145,000kms out of the wheel bearings…
All in all, there are several factors on which you as a consumer need to make an educated decision. Do you want to maximize the life of your bearings? Are you willing to sacrifice some lifespan of a part that is going to wear out at some point any way, if it increases the vehicle’s visual appeal to yourself? In 1stOne’s case, he selected a different offset than factory because he wanted to maximize the width of the wheel he could fit without having to modify the fenders or worry about clearance to the suspension. His priority was fitting in some sticky-___ tires to take to the track. For him, I would wager he would probably wear out bearings faster than someone who doesn’t track their car even if he had maintained the factory wheel offset.
Bearings in the wheel hub are designed to accept load perpendicularly (the weight of the car pushing straight down), and as 2tCornot2tC mentioned it is ideal to have the load split evenly between the two bearing sets. This is true, but this load split changes when you go around a corner, so right away these bearings have to be designed to be robust enough to take load on an angle as well as perpendicularly. In the end, driving solely on the factory wheels or wheels with the same offset might mean that you can drive 150,000kms before bearing failure, while driving on a wheel with a slightly different offset might mean you only get 145,000kms out of the wheel bearings…
All in all, there are several factors on which you as a consumer need to make an educated decision. Do you want to maximize the life of your bearings? Are you willing to sacrifice some lifespan of a part that is going to wear out at some point any way, if it increases the vehicle’s visual appeal to yourself? In 1stOne’s case, he selected a different offset than factory because he wanted to maximize the width of the wheel he could fit without having to modify the fenders or worry about clearance to the suspension. His priority was fitting in some sticky-___ tires to take to the track. For him, I would wager he would probably wear out bearings faster than someone who doesn’t track their car even if he had maintained the factory wheel offset.
05-11-2011, 03:28 PM
#12
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 10
I was hoping to get a set of O.Z. Ultraleggera but on tire rack when I select those they come up with these values:
Offset: 48mm
Backspacing: 6.37"
Rec. Tire Size:225/45-18
So that offset is way off what I'd want (as close to 39mm as possible) and they recommend 225/45 but would 255/35 be ok?
Offset: 48mm
Backspacing: 6.37"
Rec. Tire Size:225/45-18
So that offset is way off what I'd want (as close to 39mm as possible) and they recommend 225/45 but would 255/35 be ok?
05-11-2011, 03:29 PM
#13
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Welcome Colin (colHolm)…You’ve been a member for a month and this is your first post! What a great entrance.
How are you with suspension design? Do we want to carry this discussion to all of the affects to the suspension geometry (and therefore the handling characteristics) will do if the location of the centerline of the wheel or the diameter of the wheel is changed?
How are you with suspension design? Do we want to carry this discussion to all of the affects to the suspension geometry (and therefore the handling characteristics) will do if the location of the centerline of the wheel or the diameter of the wheel is changed?
05-11-2011, 03:38 PM
#14
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I was hoping to get a set of O.Z. Ultraleggera but on tire rack when I select those they come up with these values:
Offset: 48mm
Backspacing: 6.37"
Rec. Tire Size:225/45-18
So that offset is way off what I'd want (as close to 39mm as possible) and they recommend 225/45 but would 255/35 be ok?
Offset: 48mm
Backspacing: 6.37"
Rec. Tire Size:225/45-18
So that offset is way off what I'd want (as close to 39mm as possible) and they recommend 225/45 but would 255/35 be ok?
05-11-2011, 03:39 PM
#15
Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 34
Thanks for the welcome! I've just been creeping around the site. I joined in preparation for my purchase of the Scion FR-S next year :D
I've got to admit, I have no experience in suspension design. I'm not an engineer either. I like to think I have a decent understanding of the basic concepts though... but I could be wrong. I fear if we carry this discussion into the nitty gritty of all the interaction and correlation of suspension components, I would probably find myself in over my head.
What knowledge I have I have gained from reading, discussions and my own trial and error experience.
@nekio
A good rule of thumb is you can usually go +/- 10mm in section width of a tire from the recommended size
I've got to admit, I have no experience in suspension design. I'm not an engineer either. I like to think I have a decent understanding of the basic concepts though... but I could be wrong. I fear if we carry this discussion into the nitty gritty of all the interaction and correlation of suspension components, I would probably find myself in over my head.
What knowledge I have I have gained from reading, discussions and my own trial and error experience.
@nekio
A good rule of thumb is you can usually go +/- 10mm in section width of a tire from the recommended size
05-11-2011, 04:15 PM
#16
Junior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 10
My bad I didn't express myself correctly, take 2:
All the Alleggerita and Ultraleggera (light weight OZ) are listed as 48 offset on tire rick.
Why would they do those models in only 1 typed of offset?
Is 48 the norm?
Am I simply clueless and I can get those with the offset I need?!
Again, thanks for answering my questions.
All the Alleggerita and Ultraleggera (light weight OZ) are listed as 48 offset on tire rick.
Why would they do those models in only 1 typed of offset?
Is 48 the norm?
Am I simply clueless and I can get those with the offset I need?!
Again, thanks for answering my questions.
05-11-2011, 04:36 PM
#18
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Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 5
Appreciate the collateral and thoughtful information; understanding of course that the wrong offset was purchased [with positive intentions but perhaps mis-information], I may _not_be able to return the wheels. I will of course attempt to address this with the vendor but I suspect this might require a delicate conversation and transaction.
I am left therefore with some [albeit limited] options;
1] Sell the wheels to an alternate user [and purchase a subsequent set],
2] Leverage the use of a spacer [varied and intense opinions as above-noted], Or
3] Simply continue using the current RPF1s
Now - one point of simplification; If I do in fact leverage a 10mm spacer on a 48+ offset, is this not closer to the 39+ offset from the manufacturer [with some tolerance and variation in the spacer itself]? And therefore, is the discussion and complexity around [lateral and proximal] load transfer to the bearings a relatively minor complication?
Regards,
Low_ETs
I am left therefore with some [albeit limited] options;
1] Sell the wheels to an alternate user [and purchase a subsequent set],
2] Leverage the use of a spacer [varied and intense opinions as above-noted], Or
3] Simply continue using the current RPF1s
Now - one point of simplification; If I do in fact leverage a 10mm spacer on a 48+ offset, is this not closer to the 39+ offset from the manufacturer [with some tolerance and variation in the spacer itself]? And therefore, is the discussion and complexity around [lateral and proximal] load transfer to the bearings a relatively minor complication?
Regards,
Low_ETs
05-11-2011, 04:37 PM
#19
Banned
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,075
My bad I didn't express myself correctly, take 2:
All the Alleggerita and Ultraleggera (light weight OZ) are listed as 48 offset on tire rick.
Why would they do those models in only 1 typed of offset?
Is 48 the norm?
Am I simply clueless and I can get those with the offset I need?!
Again, thanks for answering my questions.
All the Alleggerita and Ultraleggera (light weight OZ) are listed as 48 offset on tire rick.
Why would they do those models in only 1 typed of offset?
Is 48 the norm?
Am I simply clueless and I can get those with the offset I need?!
Again, thanks for answering my questions.
05-11-2011, 04:48 PM
#20
Banned
SL Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,075
Appreciate the collateral and thoughtful information; understanding of course that the wrong offset was purchased [with positive intentions but perhaps mis-information], I may _not_be able to return the wheels. I will of course attempt to address this with the vendor but I suspect this might require a delicate conversation and transaction.
I am left therefore with some [albeit limited] options;
1] Sell the wheels to an alternate user [and purchase a subsequent set],
2] Leverage the use of a spacer [varied and intense opinions as above-noted], Or
3] Simply continue using the current RPF1s
Now - one point of simplification; If I do in fact leverage a 10mm spacer on a 48+ offset, is this not closer to the 39+ offset from the manufacturer [with some tolerance and variation in the spacer itself]? And therefore, is the discussion and complexity around [lateral and proximal] load transfer to the bearings a relatively minor complication?
Regards,
Low_ETs
I am left therefore with some [albeit limited] options;
1] Sell the wheels to an alternate user [and purchase a subsequent set],
2] Leverage the use of a spacer [varied and intense opinions as above-noted], Or
3] Simply continue using the current RPF1s
Now - one point of simplification; If I do in fact leverage a 10mm spacer on a 48+ offset, is this not closer to the 39+ offset from the manufacturer [with some tolerance and variation in the spacer itself]? And therefore, is the discussion and complexity around [lateral and proximal] load transfer to the bearings a relatively minor complication?
Regards,
Low_ETs
My guess is that you will be better off taking the hit for the restocking fee on the wrong wheels and then get the right wheels, than to screw around with all that other stuff to try and make it work. Just from the money alone!