Less Weight = More Power. How to lose the lbs.
08-26-2006, 12:38 AM
#41
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There's always this route instead if you want a real monster http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IOpuGVoyCk&NR
08-26-2006, 06:08 AM
#42
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Lizard, you really need to do some research before you write your posts man, your facts are very wrong. The Xb is $14,500. With the amount of $ needed to mod to 160-180 hp is no more than $4,000 total. Thats $18,500. The celica isnt being considered cuz even the gts only puts 135 hp to the ground 160 to crank n wouldnt even come close, also its way heavier (..and btw the celica is way more expensive also stock). The others, mini ($20k plus), wrx ($25k plus), mustang gt ($30k plus), gti ($20k plus) and thats all STOCK. Do you understand? Its a matter of mathematics. Ok, add $4,000 to those prices, the exact amount added to the Xb like you said in your post, and you just end up with may more in price, you make no sense man, LOL. Im not putting you out on purpose dog, just make some sense if you are going into a debate, im pulling my hair out due to your misunderstanding of the point here. THE $18,500 160-180 HP XB WILL BEAT EVERY ONE OF THOSE CARS LISTED ABOVE IN THEIR STOCK FORM. AND IT IS $18,500 (COMPLETELY MODDED) COMPARED TO THERE STOCK PRICES. WAAAY CHEAPER STILL, AS WELL AS FASTER. Yes, you could put the same amount into those cars and they then would be faster than the Xb, but they would also be THAT MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE. Is this that hard to understand? Im sorry fellas, i know how these posts get out of control, i just couldnt get over this one, so you get my apology in advance.
08-26-2006, 03:42 PM
#43
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I think lizard might have been bent out of shape from the reference to the Z06 (and might be somewhat jaded from racing bikes etc...)
I only mentioned the Vette to show that I have indeed driven very fast cars. I'd rather have a fully sorted xB because it is a better compromise between performance and practicality (with price also a consideration of the practicality side.)
Another point I'd like to make. Flat out performance numbers are not really a factor on the street. The only place 199mph top speed matters is on the track, and possibly someone's needy ego. And while it's fun to get to 100mph in less than 9 seconds (as I did that day w/the Z06 I must admit) that kind of power gets people in trouble in the real world.
But here's the point. What makes the xB so great is the same thing that makes Triumphs and Miatas great- they have performance levels that can be actually explored and pushed in daily driving, which makes them entertaining to drive everyday. As much as I love supercars I think the daily commute would feel like being in a cage, always being reminded of it's unused potential. Unless I lived in Germany or in Montana somwhere, it would get kinda depressing after a while.
So anyway, my real-world dream car is a WRX sti wagon, but right now for half the price I'll keep working on the xB.
I only mentioned the Vette to show that I have indeed driven very fast cars. I'd rather have a fully sorted xB because it is a better compromise between performance and practicality (with price also a consideration of the practicality side.)
Another point I'd like to make. Flat out performance numbers are not really a factor on the street. The only place 199mph top speed matters is on the track, and possibly someone's needy ego. And while it's fun to get to 100mph in less than 9 seconds (as I did that day w/the Z06 I must admit) that kind of power gets people in trouble in the real world.
But here's the point. What makes the xB so great is the same thing that makes Triumphs and Miatas great- they have performance levels that can be actually explored and pushed in daily driving, which makes them entertaining to drive everyday. As much as I love supercars I think the daily commute would feel like being in a cage, always being reminded of it's unused potential. Unless I lived in Germany or in Montana somwhere, it would get kinda depressing after a while.
So anyway, my real-world dream car is a WRX sti wagon, but right now for half the price I'll keep working on the xB.
08-26-2006, 03:48 PM
#44
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I have adjusted the wheel weight to include rotational mass (3lbs per 1lb). This brings my total weight loss to around 250 lbs without losing much practically (besides backseats). Coupled with a perrin crank pulley, your engine would be lead to believe that your auto weighs 350 lbs less.
2340 - 350 = 1990lbs
Divided by 111hp (stock hp + cai + intake + header) = 17.9 lbs per hp. While maintaining reliablity, low cost, and practically!
I want to thank everyone for there AWESOME comments so far, i agree this is one of the best posts on how to maximize the performance of our little cars! They CAN be quick.
2340 - 350 = 1990lbs
Divided by 111hp (stock hp + cai + intake + header) = 17.9 lbs per hp. While maintaining reliablity, low cost, and practically!
I want to thank everyone for there AWESOME comments so far, i agree this is one of the best posts on how to maximize the performance of our little cars! They CAN be quick.
08-26-2006, 03:52 PM
#45
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Originally Posted by jones75254
Lizard, you really need to do some research before you write your posts man, your facts are very wrong. The Xb is $14,500. With the amount of $ needed to mod to 160-180 hp is no more than $4,000 total. Thats $18,500. The celica isnt being considered cuz even the gts only puts 135 hp to the ground 160 to crank n wouldnt even come close, also its way heavier (..and btw the celica is way more expensive also stock). The others, mini ($20k plus), wrx ($25k plus), mustang gt ($30k plus), gti ($20k plus) and thats all STOCK. Do you understand? Its a matter of mathematics. Ok, add $4,000 to those prices, the exact amount added to the Xb like you said in your post, and you just end up with may more in price, you make no sense man, LOL. Im not putting you out on purpose dog, just make some sense if you are going into a debate, im pulling my hair out due to your misunderstanding of the point here. THE $18,500 160-180 HP XB WILL BEAT EVERY ONE OF THOSE CARS LISTED ABOVE IN THEIR STOCK FORM. AND IT IS $18,500 (COMPLETELY MODDED) COMPARED TO THERE STOCK PRICES. WAAAY CHEAPER STILL, AS WELL AS FASTER. Yes, you could put the same amount into those cars and they then would be faster than the Xb, but they would also be THAT MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE. Is this that hard to understand? Im sorry fellas, i know how these posts get out of control, i just couldnt get over this one, so you get my apology in advance.
08-26-2006, 03:55 PM
#46
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Originally Posted by designed24
I have adjusted the wheel weight to include rotational mass (3lbs per 1lb). This brings my total weight loss to around 250 lbs without losing much practically (besides backseats). Coupled with a perrin crank pulley, your engine would be lead to believe that your auto weighs 350 lbs less.
2340 - 350 = 1990lbs
Divided by 111hp (stock hp + cai + intake + header) = 17.9 lbs per hp. While maintaining reliablity, low cost, and practically!
I want to thank everyone for there AWESOME comments so far, i agree this is one of the best posts on how to maximize the performance of our little cars! They CAN be quick.
2340 - 350 = 1990lbs
Divided by 111hp (stock hp + cai + intake + header) = 17.9 lbs per hp. While maintaining reliablity, low cost, and practically!
I want to thank everyone for there AWESOME comments so far, i agree this is one of the best posts on how to maximize the performance of our little cars! They CAN be quick.
08-26-2006, 04:06 PM
#47
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If you added a S/C or Turbo and managed to get 150hp out of our cars your ratio would then be approximately 13.2lbs per horsepower.
This would allow you to hang out with the big boys...
2006 WRX (13.9lbs per hp) <--- possible kill
2006 Mini (21.9lbs per hp) <--- absolute kill
2006 Mini S (15.9lbs per hp) <--- kill
2007 GTI automatic (15.7 lbs per hp) <--- kill
2007 GTI manual (15.5 lbs per hp) <--- kill
2006 Civic Si (14.6lbs per hp) <--- kill
I think the numbers speak for themselves.
I understand that this figures are accounted only for the stock vehicles, but so what!
Oh, not to mention we would BURN a stock tC or a slightly modded one.
Cheer up xA's and xB's. We can be fast, if your smart and do it right!
This would allow you to hang out with the big boys...
2006 WRX (13.9lbs per hp) <--- possible kill
2006 Mini (21.9lbs per hp) <--- absolute kill
2006 Mini S (15.9lbs per hp) <--- kill
2007 GTI automatic (15.7 lbs per hp) <--- kill
2007 GTI manual (15.5 lbs per hp) <--- kill
2006 Civic Si (14.6lbs per hp) <--- kill
I think the numbers speak for themselves.
I understand that this figures are accounted only for the stock vehicles, but so what!
Oh, not to mention we would BURN a stock tC or a slightly modded one.
Cheer up xA's and xB's. We can be fast, if your smart and do it right!
08-26-2006, 04:14 PM
#48
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Obvisouly it would be wise to beef up your suspension because with that kind of weight 2 power ratio it would be unsafe on our stock suspension. Plus those cars would out handling you...
springs, rear sway, and front strut should be sufficient to tighten things up, Cost would be around 350-500 bucks, no biggy.
springs, rear sway, and front strut should be sufficient to tighten things up, Cost would be around 350-500 bucks, no biggy.
08-26-2006, 10:24 PM
#50
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I totally agree re: handling and all that. In a track setting, even with the fully modded/turbo Xb, those other cars (gti, mini, si,wrx) would hand it to us. In straight speed the Xb CAN, with total $ spent on mods being LESS than any of those cars, be faster than those cars...in a straight line. Even that to me is amazing. But, getting the Xb to that stage of course is time/$ consuming and is very risky. But it can be done and it CAN be done by any ordinary shmoe with some time/$ on his/her hands. The cars are wonderous people, we have proven that the Xb can be more than just a show piece or a grocery getter, and that diversity sets it apart and makes it appeal to all types of people.
08-27-2006, 04:53 AM
#52
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i have something to add... but it kinda contradicts this whole thread. i saywhy go through all that work? the scions will still be slow. we didnt not buy our scions to race or haul but every where we go.. if i was going for speed i woulda kept my 5.0 these are economy car, we are supposed to just look good while we cruise it, and get some killer gas milage... but that just my .02
08-27-2006, 05:55 AM
#53
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Why does there have to be so many posts to contradict the point of the original post?
It doesn't matter if cutting weight will make it faster than another car as long as the person doing it enjoys doing it and enjoys the result. Any improvement is good. Why do you have to degrade what some are trying to do? We all have our own opinions but this post isn't an opinion poll. This is an information and sharing post.
It doesn't matter if cutting weight will make it faster than another car as long as the person doing it enjoys doing it and enjoys the result. Any improvement is good. Why do you have to degrade what some are trying to do? We all have our own opinions but this post isn't an opinion poll. This is an information and sharing post.
08-27-2006, 06:02 AM
#54
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Originally Posted by chadfo
Why does there have to be so many posts to contradict the point of the original post?
It doesn't matter if cutting weight will make it faster than another car as long as the person doing it enjoys doing it and enjoys the result. Any improvement is good. Why do you have to degrade what some are trying to do? We all have our own opinions but this post isn't an opinion poll. This is an information and sharing post.
It doesn't matter if cutting weight will make it faster than another car as long as the person doing it enjoys doing it and enjoys the result. Any improvement is good. Why do you have to degrade what some are trying to do? We all have our own opinions but this post isn't an opinion poll. This is an information and sharing post.
08-27-2006, 07:06 AM
#55
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Re: Less Weight = More Power. How to lose the lbs.
Originally Posted by designed24
Scion xA (manual) = 2340 lbs
Scion xB (manual) = 2395 lbs
Horsepower: 103
Scion xA ratio: 22.7 lbs per horsepower.
Scion xB ratio: 23.25 lbs per horsepower.
The general agreement among SL members is that Cold air intake + Headers + Axle back roughly developes 7-10 hp in our cars.
xB and xA with CAI/header/exhaust horsepower: 111
Scion xA ratio: 21.1 lbs per horsepower.
Scion xB ratio: 21.6 lbs per horsepower.
This is approximately a 7.5% increase in horsepower.
Besides adding a pulley, there is not many more worthwhile performance options while staying non turbo, non superchargered (n/a).
The only way to get some improvements is the shed the weight. I think 150-200 lbs is a good goal.
Scion xA (manual) = 2340 lbs - 200lbs = 2140
Scion xB (manual) = 2395 lbs - 200lbs = 2195
Scion xA ratio: 19.3 lbs per horsepower.
Scion xB ratio: 19.7 lbs per horsepower.
200 lbs makes 10hp. Simply proved by if 2340 (stock weight) divided by 113 (stock hp + 10 horsepower) equals 20.7 hp per lb. 2140 divided by 103 equals 20.7 lbs per hp. Its that same thing.
This is a 9.3% increase in horsepower and a 17.6% increase in horsepower over stock!
Cool, but how the hell are we gonna get 200 lbs off our egg or box?
Please note that weight reduction can go as far as you want to take it at the expense of comfort, convenience, and $.
It is important for YOU the driver to figure out how far you want to take it.
Just because it is listed above does not mean I recomend it.
Red top battery <--- i gotta check but I think you can lose 20-30 lbs on this one.
leight weight wheels <-- i have 15" falken hanabis with 195/50 falken ziex total weight 27 lbs each. about 7 lbs lighter than stock. 7x4 = 28lbs. 28 x 3 (rotational mass 1lb equals 3lbs of dead weight) = 84lbs !
remove back seat + spare tire <--- back seat is heavy!! I think it is around 60lbs and spare is approxe 20lb. total weigth reduced 80lbs.
random junk you have in your car <-- i bet you get find a misc 10lb laying around
get your lazy butt on a diet <--- 10lbs.
*ADDED*
Carbon Fiber Hood + Hatch <---- waiting for numbers.
Drive on half a tank or less 6 gallons x 4.5 = 27lbs reduced.
Drain window washer fluid <--- 2-3 lbs.
Total weight reduced : approximately 250 lbs! BEYOND our goal!
----
Just to give you an idea of other cars horsepower per lb ratio:
Scion tC (auto) = 18.45
Mazda 3 i = 18
07 Mitsubitshi Eclipse = 20.2
Ford F150 V8 king ranch = 23.5
Camry 2.4liter = 21
VW Rabbit (4dr) = 19.4
base Nissan Sentra = 20.8
----
Also, Perrin claims that their 1.2lb pulley is equal to a weight reduction of 100lbs. I have not installed this mods so I can not comment on this. Althought I have heard it does free up some power as claimed.
Scion xA with CAI/header/exhaust = 111hp. Goal wieght of 2140lbs + Perrin pulley = 2040
Giving a new ratio of 18.3lbs per horsepower... which is better than that of the tC (as shown above)
Scion xB (manual) = 2395 lbs
Horsepower: 103
Scion xA ratio: 22.7 lbs per horsepower.
Scion xB ratio: 23.25 lbs per horsepower.
The general agreement among SL members is that Cold air intake + Headers + Axle back roughly developes 7-10 hp in our cars.
xB and xA with CAI/header/exhaust horsepower: 111
Scion xA ratio: 21.1 lbs per horsepower.
Scion xB ratio: 21.6 lbs per horsepower.
This is approximately a 7.5% increase in horsepower.
Besides adding a pulley, there is not many more worthwhile performance options while staying non turbo, non superchargered (n/a).
The only way to get some improvements is the shed the weight. I think 150-200 lbs is a good goal.
Scion xA (manual) = 2340 lbs - 200lbs = 2140
Scion xB (manual) = 2395 lbs - 200lbs = 2195
Scion xA ratio: 19.3 lbs per horsepower.
Scion xB ratio: 19.7 lbs per horsepower.
200 lbs makes 10hp. Simply proved by if 2340 (stock weight) divided by 113 (stock hp + 10 horsepower) equals 20.7 hp per lb. 2140 divided by 103 equals 20.7 lbs per hp. Its that same thing.
This is a 9.3% increase in horsepower and a 17.6% increase in horsepower over stock!
Cool, but how the hell are we gonna get 200 lbs off our egg or box?
Please note that weight reduction can go as far as you want to take it at the expense of comfort, convenience, and $.
It is important for YOU the driver to figure out how far you want to take it.
Just because it is listed above does not mean I recomend it.
Red top battery <--- i gotta check but I think you can lose 20-30 lbs on this one.
leight weight wheels <-- i have 15" falken hanabis with 195/50 falken ziex total weight 27 lbs each. about 7 lbs lighter than stock. 7x4 = 28lbs. 28 x 3 (rotational mass 1lb equals 3lbs of dead weight) = 84lbs !
remove back seat + spare tire <--- back seat is heavy!! I think it is around 60lbs and spare is approxe 20lb. total weigth reduced 80lbs.
random junk you have in your car <-- i bet you get find a misc 10lb laying around
get your lazy butt on a diet <--- 10lbs.
*ADDED*
Carbon Fiber Hood + Hatch <---- waiting for numbers.
Drive on half a tank or less 6 gallons x 4.5 = 27lbs reduced.
Drain window washer fluid <--- 2-3 lbs.
Total weight reduced : approximately 250 lbs! BEYOND our goal!
----
Just to give you an idea of other cars horsepower per lb ratio:
Scion tC (auto) = 18.45
Mazda 3 i = 18
07 Mitsubitshi Eclipse = 20.2
Ford F150 V8 king ranch = 23.5
Camry 2.4liter = 21
VW Rabbit (4dr) = 19.4
base Nissan Sentra = 20.8
----
Also, Perrin claims that their 1.2lb pulley is equal to a weight reduction of 100lbs. I have not installed this mods so I can not comment on this. Althought I have heard it does free up some power as claimed.
Scion xA with CAI/header/exhaust = 111hp. Goal wieght of 2140lbs + Perrin pulley = 2040
Giving a new ratio of 18.3lbs per horsepower... which is better than that of the tC (as shown above)
With a c/f hood you'll save 10lbs or so with most c/f hoods, up to probably 15lbs.
08-27-2006, 04:19 PM
#56
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Re: Back to effective weight reduction.
Originally Posted by Graeme
I put on new Enkei RPF1s today. 15 X 7 Aluminum wheel weighs 9#. Stock steelie weights 17.5#. Saves 8.5# per corner--34# total. Using a common coversion, for discussion only, that one pound of rotating weight saved equals about three pounds of chassis weight, my wheel change is the equivalent of removing about 102# of vehicle weight.
For the wheel only, it calculates to a 51% reduction of moment of inertia.
For the wheel only, it calculates to a 51% reduction of moment of inertia.
It's all kinda endless.
08-27-2006, 04:30 PM
#57
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Originally Posted by jones75254
Lizard, you really need to do some research before you write your posts man, your facts are very wrong. The Xb is $14,500. With the amount of $ needed to mod to 160-180 hp is no more than $4,000 total. Thats $18,500. The celica isnt being considered cuz even the gts only puts 135 hp to the ground 160 to crank n wouldnt even come close, also its way heavier (..and btw the celica is way more expensive also stock). The others, mini ($20k plus), wrx ($25k plus), mustang gt ($30k plus), gti ($20k plus) and thats all STOCK. Do you understand? Its a matter of mathematics. Ok, add $4,000 to those prices, the exact amount added to the Xb like you said in your post, and you just end up with may more in price, you make no sense man, LOL. Im not putting you out on purpose dog, just make some sense if you are going into a debate, im pulling my hair out due to your misunderstanding of the point here. THE $18,500 160-180 HP XB WILL BEAT EVERY ONE OF THOSE CARS LISTED ABOVE IN THEIR STOCK FORM. AND IT IS $18,500 (COMPLETELY MODDED) COMPARED TO THERE STOCK PRICES. WAAAY CHEAPER STILL, AS WELL AS FASTER. Yes, you could put the same amount into those cars and they then would be faster than the Xb, but they would also be THAT MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE. Is this that hard to understand? Im sorry fellas, i know how these posts get out of control, i just couldnt get over this one, so you get my apology in advance.
Basically, I'll take a stock Mini S or WRX or Celica and with one of those other $20k - $25k cars and go better in a more efficient manner (Heavier or not) and still wax the XB.
Here's why. $4k to cover motor, $1k for wheels and tires, and at least another $1k in stuff like frame braces, sway bars, etc., and finally, another bit of money to cover exhaust, intake, etc. to compliment that motor work.
We'll go cheap and do $7k in total and the car is still only at 160 to POSSIBLY 170 w/o major internal stuff to the motor. At $15k for our cars plus $7k in bolt-ons, you're in that $22k range just to compete. Get my drift? Again, these cars no matter how passionate you are in your mind about them, they still are not world beaters.
A WRX in stock form is pretty much going to beat a modded out XB. If you don't realize that, you aren't getting what I am saying...
08-27-2006, 04:36 PM
#58
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Originally Posted by Boxer_Rebellion
I think lizard might have been bent out of shape from the reference to the Z06 (and might be somewhat jaded from racing bikes etc...)
I only mentioned the Vette to show that I have indeed driven very fast cars. I'd rather have a fully sorted xB because it is a better compromise between performance and practicality (with price also a consideration of the practicality side.)
Another point I'd like to make. Flat out performance numbers are not really a factor on the street. The only place 199mph top speed matters is on the track, and possibly someone's needy ego. And while it's fun to get to 100mph in less than 9 seconds (as I did that day w/the Z06 I must admit) that kind of power gets people in trouble in the real world.
But here's the point. What makes the xB so great is the same thing that makes Triumphs and Miatas great- they have performance levels that can be actually explored and pushed in daily driving, which makes them entertaining to drive everyday. As much as I love supercars I think the daily commute would feel like being in a cage, always being reminded of it's unused potential. Unless I lived in Germany or in Montana somwhere, it would get kinda depressing after a while.
So anyway, my real-world dream car is a WRX sti wagon, but right now for half the price I'll keep working on the xB.
I only mentioned the Vette to show that I have indeed driven very fast cars. I'd rather have a fully sorted xB because it is a better compromise between performance and practicality (with price also a consideration of the practicality side.)
Another point I'd like to make. Flat out performance numbers are not really a factor on the street. The only place 199mph top speed matters is on the track, and possibly someone's needy ego. And while it's fun to get to 100mph in less than 9 seconds (as I did that day w/the Z06 I must admit) that kind of power gets people in trouble in the real world.
But here's the point. What makes the xB so great is the same thing that makes Triumphs and Miatas great- they have performance levels that can be actually explored and pushed in daily driving, which makes them entertaining to drive everyday. As much as I love supercars I think the daily commute would feel like being in a cage, always being reminded of it's unused potential. Unless I lived in Germany or in Montana somwhere, it would get kinda depressing after a while.
So anyway, my real-world dream car is a WRX sti wagon, but right now for half the price I'll keep working on the xB.
The issue with you and the vette are pretty simple. I think you and I are really on the same page believe it or not. I agree 100% for the money and for the fact of what these cars really are, they are a great bang for the buck.
However, our conversation included track scenerios and that is where we sorta lost everyone. Track is MUCH different than street. Agreed. However, performance is performance. A 180 hp XB isn't a car that can be used 100% of it's potential any easier than a Z06. There isn't many on here, I presume who can even drive a 180 hp XB with top skill. Many people think they can, few can deliver...
Point you make is understandable and I agree with you on the compromise ideal. However, based on performance, an XB has a ways to go...
08-27-2006, 04:42 PM
#59
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Originally Posted by designed24
If you added a S/C or Turbo and managed to get 150hp out of our cars your ratio would then be approximately 13.2lbs per horsepower.
This would allow you to hang out with the big boys...
2006 WRX (13.9lbs per hp) <--- possible kill
2006 Mini (21.9lbs per hp) <--- absolute kill
2006 Mini S (15.9lbs per hp) <--- kill
2007 GTI automatic (15.7 lbs per hp) <--- kill
2007 GTI manual (15.5 lbs per hp) <--- kill
2006 Civic Si (14.6lbs per hp) <--- kill
I think the numbers speak for themselves.
I understand that this figures are accounted only for the stock vehicles, but so what!
Oh, not to mention we would BURN a stock tC or a slightly modded one.
Cheer up xA's and xB's. We can be fast, if your smart and do it right!
This would allow you to hang out with the big boys...
2006 WRX (13.9lbs per hp) <--- possible kill
2006 Mini (21.9lbs per hp) <--- absolute kill
2006 Mini S (15.9lbs per hp) <--- kill
2007 GTI automatic (15.7 lbs per hp) <--- kill
2007 GTI manual (15.5 lbs per hp) <--- kill
2006 Civic Si (14.6lbs per hp) <--- kill
I think the numbers speak for themselves.
I understand that this figures are accounted only for the stock vehicles, but so what!
Oh, not to mention we would BURN a stock tC or a slightly modded one.
Cheer up xA's and xB's. We can be fast, if your smart and do it right!
A WRX will kill an XB in handling... A GTi will, a Civic Si will, a MiniS will, etc. Point above statement I made is pointing towards that. Hp/lb is a great math equation if you can make things equal. However, w/o touching a WRX, GTi, Mini S, etc., you have cars with really good suspension when considering they are stock. All the cars listed are based on a formula that accents their sport heritage. The XB isn't designed under that mentality. Just the dollars needed to get the suspension near theirs (Coil overs) is almost a $1k tab. So, like I stated, adding $3k to that motor bill is basically being generous.
An XB with 180 hp in stock trim and nothing else is a great lesson in hp per pound ratios, but if that little box is stock outside motorwork, that advantage in power to weight means squat.
08-27-2006, 04:43 PM
#60
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Originally Posted by must_tang50
i have something to add... but it kinda contradicts this whole thread. i saywhy go through all that work? the scions will still be slow. we didnt not buy our scions to race or haul but every where we go.. if i was going for speed i woulda kept my 5.0 these are economy car, we are supposed to just look good while we cruise it, and get some killer gas milage... but that just my .02