Recently the idea came to mind to possibly run a twincharge setup on the xB. My current configuration has a Greddy supercharger at 8 psi. I did notice, though, that the area taken up by the supercharger does not really overlap with the Greddy turbo since it is lacking an intercooler. The turbo mounts above the exhaust manifolf and feeds from the stock air box to the intake throttle body I believe. Both of these components remain intact with the supercharger.

I have already researched the MR2 and VW setups, so I'm really looking for any information on the xB only if anyone's tried this.

Has anyone ever tried running both? The theory behind would be the supercharger would boost quickly in the low end, spooling up the turbo faster than with the turbo alone. At high RPM, the turbo would supplement the supercharger, not needing to compress since the incoming air would already be pressurized. Now the Greddy supercharger does not have a clutch, so it could not go into free spin like the Blitz. It does, however, have a vacuum controlled bypass valve, allowing incoming air to not route through the supercharger. It would be possible to have an RPM switch and electric motor open this valve at higher RPM when the turbo starts producing more compression than the supercharger.

My guess is that the stock Greddy super and turbo wouldn't make much more power than an individual install, but would have better throttle response and top-end HP then either in a standalone. It would also make one hell of a showpiece in an engine bay. If I can find the Greddy turbo kit new or used for under 1,000 maybe I'll give it a try, but will take some measurements at the next show first to make sure it will clear. If you're in Maryland or Virginia, don't mind me poking around your engine bay with a tape measure and a camera. Might ____ my tuner off though when I bring it in if I ever decide to install both.

 

http://www.turbo-kits.com/mini_turbo_kits.html
& http://www.northamericanmotoring.com...ht=twincharger

Twincharging works but the way to go is with a Rotrex. The first link shows all the hardware for a twin kit. Way too many pieces IMHO for a good reliable system. A 30 shot, with what you have, would do the trick at the top for a whole lot less $$$$$ & time.

Did you install TC injectors yet? If so, how long did it take for the ECU to adapt? If at all. And did you have the e-manage tuned for the injectors?

 

Realistically a 25 shot would probably be my next power mod. I'm in the middle of re-configuring the interior and won't have bottle space until I'm done. I just thought it would be good for show and go if I could find a Greddy turbo cheap; if it didn't work I could always resell it.

Injectors went in well, I had to fight a little to get the old rail off but did it without pulling the valve cover or blower.

See https://www.scionlife.com/forums/vie...c6268684e35dd0 for details and the dyno sheet. Dropped a few HP when the top end got richened up but really smoothed out the A/F curve. I didn't notice the ECU remap, I only had the injectors on for a week before the retune, it should be safe for nitrous now.

 

So you had the e-manage retuned? On this car the injectors were instaled & it was way rich at the top for about 4 days, 250 miles. With the OE injectors, 5k sustained, the AF would go as high as 13 ( which is OK but high, too high for my taste ) & NOT safe for a dry shot.
Read your other post - 11.6 is fine for a 25 shot. At the top, that 25 , will feel like a lot more.......

 

umm there are no vw twin charge kits, the turbo kit for the g60 engine replaces the supercharger

 

VW twincharge is not a kit, it's an OEM setup. The engine is being used in the Golf GT in Australia and the Touran (mini-Toureg) in Europe.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=5699 Road and Track article

http://www.gizmag.com/go/4595/ Good illustrations in the image gallery

http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/OurCom...rger/index.htm Eaton's press release

Edit: pics won't link on the forum but there is an illustration of the concept with the bypass valve and clutch clearly visible, and engine bay and cutaway pics as well on the Gizmag site.

 

Wow, that would be awsome if we could get those on our 1.5L little engines.
What kind of HP/tq was that golf putting down?

 

Well, less than the GTI as it's in the middle of the Golf line-up. The main idea behind VW was to make a car that was quick off of the line AND fuel efficient, hence the clutch on the supercharger. it cuts off when the blower starts losing efficiency.

 

Any one single power adder (Supercharger, Turbo, Nitrous) for these cars is more than capable of destroying the engine and drivetrain as it is.

Twincharging these cars is like riding a horse that is riding a donkey, it's just a bad and way overkill idea. You should try and get these cars to handle any one of the power adders in a strong and reliable fashion before worrying about adding a second.

 

"Any one single power adder (Supercharger, Turbo, Nitrous) for these cars is more than capable of destroying the engine and drivetrain as it is."

With a bad tune, true. But I can destroy a N/A motor with a bad tune just as easily. In the MD / NOVA area, there are multiple F/I setups on the xB with few failures and high miles. Please let me know if you've heard of an engine failure on a Greddy, Blitz, PE, or HKS that was due to a design flaw; I am not aware of one. The Greddy S/C on my setup is strong AND reliable, with one electrical failure due to install (routed the ignition harness under the bypass valve actuator arm). The Greddy Turbo would add about 5 psi, bringing it up to about 12 psi if ran in serial. I would need to rebuild the bottom end before trying this with a set of 8.5:1 pistons and forged rods, but there is no reason to think it will destroy an engine if moderately built.

Please note that the Twincharging concept is not just to add top-end power, a bigger turbo would be better suited. The idea is to draw on the low-end power of the S/C and the top end efficiency of the turbo. if a bypass valve is utilized with a S/C clutch, there will be only a narrow RPM band where both are engaged, and max boost would only be around 8 psi. Please do not throw out generalizing statements and no data to support them. Anything, no matter how absurd, can be an assumption.

If you want to argue it is not a cost effective method of adding power, I will support you whole-hartedly, but to say it won't work or will definatively lead to failure is a fallacy.

 

Vett, I don't think the twincharger is a great thing to do to these cars, BUT if you don't try or break stuff while trying you won't learn anything.
If I can be of any help.. If you start this project, count me in.

You know the MP45 will produce way more than 12psi by itself? I'm running as much as 16lbs, on average, at WOT on my Mini. That's way too much for the internals of the 1NZ. There are 2 more pulley sizes & a 2% crank pulley that still could be added for 5 more combonations to make more boost.........

 

Yeah, I know the pulley can be downsized and the charger can produce a lot more than it is currently. With the Greddy setup, they piggyback the belt to the alternator for a two belt system. I'm having slight slippage now with a cool engine and with a smaller pulley I'm thinking it will only get worse. I did have one issue where the retaining pin came off of the tension pulley adjustment bolt, so I may be able to tighten it down more once a replacement pin is put on.

The main purpose of this project would be to have a unique F/I system for an xB, and to have it show well. The cheapest and probably easiest method would be a 20 shot of nitrous. I would like it streetable / trackable though, so anything I do would have a margin of safety. For the Eaton unit, if I can find an electronic clutch on the front end, I can add a vacuum switch on the back in to the vacuum line to engage / disengage the bypass valve when a turbo kicks in, or leave it in serial to make use of the positive displacement characteristic.

I really don't want to mess with the crank pulley since there's no key for it, don't want to stress the pin on it more than I have too. I've pulled off the aluminum crank pulley for the stock steel one to alleviate potential failure after a pin swap.

I need to scrounge up an extra 600 for a replacement motor before I do anything though, always nice to have a spare.

 

I like the 20 shot A LOT!
The stock crank pulley, with this setup, is the way to go IMHO. Who knows what the harmonics are doing to the aluminum pulley, then you ad more work for it, a blower...
The chirp from the blower belt is something you just need to get use to & it would not happen if you lived in the SW... It's a cold deal along with moisture that we get plenty of here in the NE. You don't get the chirp when there's heat under the hood..... And don't over tighten the belt. A too tight belt will do the same thing......... Rember the BPV is shut & you need some vacume to open it when you first start up in the morning.....
As of now I have my blower off the motor. Doing a mod for the sticking BPV shaft. This started happening on this SC, like yours & found the butterfly was causing a bur on the shaft bosses ( notice that the shaft moves about 1/4" when the valve is open ). Also, of note, as the rubber seals on the bearings have any debris & dry out they tend to stick also. Sil Glide does a pretty good job on the exposed side ( actuator ) seal.
Next, Last Look Customs has a billet OBX TB that should give you a little at the top. I tried to order 1 today, no luck, nobody home....
Tomorow I'll pull the drive pulley & see if the Mini pulley fits. As of now it does not look like this is a good idea since you would need a spacer to align the pulley location. It will NOT be a direct "put it on & go". On the plus side, I can make a spacer or use a split ring clamp machiened to spec. I'll know what's what tomorow if time permits.

 

I don't believe you understood what I was saying. I am well aware of how twin charging works but I do not blame you for trying to explain it since rediculous claims run rampant on this board.

I'm not even talking about cost. Take the Greddy kit for example. While there isn't much room for a smaller pulley, it could still be done, upping the boost however the smarter approach would be to replace the blower with a larger output model, say an M62, which could be modified to fit on the Greddy intake manifold. Ignoring the COST involved in doing so, the amount of air that blower could push into the 1.5L engine would be rather disgusting. You could easily run it at 20-25PSI on this engine and have the blower be in it's RPM efficiency range.

Now if the motor/trans could take it (which I highly doubt it could) and ignoring fuel delivery, etc as that would be part of the install cost, this setup would make any 8psi twin charged setup look like clown shoes.

My point being, this community is so 'young' at boosting a car that you all should focus your efforts on maxing out single power adder setups before going crazy on twins.

I don't know if that makes sense to you and frankly I don't care. I come back here from time to time just to see where you all have gotten to. I read one post on a low 14 sec 1/4mile and a few down is someone wanting to twincharge... just doesn't make much sense LOL.

Do it to do it, nobody is stoping anyone. hell, I put an M62 on an XB. First design didn't work all that well and I'm the first to admit that. Won't know if you don't try.

 

Thanks for the clarification Boogie, it did really help. Your initial post read to me as "don't run a twin charge setup, you will blow your engine". I see that wasn't your intent, rather you're saying maximize the gain from a single F/I method before adding another, and that makes sense. Unfortunately, I don't have direct access to a machine shop, so modding the charger is beyond my abilities at this time. The Greddy turbo appears to be bolt on, so no extra plumbing would need to be made outside of what's on the kit. If I have funds for this project, my goals would be to:

1) Have something unique
2) Have something functional with increased performance over the base Greddy supercharger
3) Have something somewhat cost effective

The last bullet is what's stopping me right now. I will need to buy forged rods & low compression pistons (1k), the turbo setup (1-2k), and get the whole thing retuned (250 on blue, 800 if Ultimate is needed). For the same performance, nitrous would be vastly cheaper. However, at shows there are already a few xB's with a turbo / supercharger and nitrous running, so the WOW factor is kind of missing. I have an auto (read: slushbox) so peak performance will never be attainable without a transmission swap, and I do not plan on attempting one.

Hope that clears things up, I applaud you for even trying a custom M62 setup. To my knowledge, the fastest time on the 1NZ is 14.09 ran by Blown_xA on a turbo.

 

Hope it works for you.

I would like to add, I highly doubt it would cost more to pay a shop to get a larger blower working for you than it would to buy the turbo and spend the money on the tuning. Just saying.

If you really want to be unique, build a CSC setup for it. I know you could get them factory on TC's but I don't recall seing an XB with one yet.

 

Power Enterprises makes a CSC one for the xB, runs about 3800 though, upgraded injectors and fuel pump but claims to run on the stock ECU.

http://www.powerenterpriseusa.net/ca...ges/bb/bb.html

 

Yes it does use the stock ECU & so can you, even with the 370's. I ran my car like that for the last 2 months. The OE pump is a 220 & the upgrade is a 255. PE wanted the higher reliability with the pump IMHO. Somewhere I thought I asked you if you were running the OE ECU after the TC injector upgrade...guess not.
If you haven't tried the OE it's worth a look, a long look.....

 

yeah, I remember you asking about that. No, I've never tried the OE ECU with the tC injectors. I still don't have a wide-band in and wouldn't want to run them with no indicator of A/F. injectors are tuned with eManage blue, worked excellent and if I go 20 shot on a bottle, should help on that end as well.

I've only seen the PE charger at Vivid Racing for 3800, anyone have it cheaper, the greddy was like 2200.

 

Not to worry. Just do a plug check & run your finger around the exhaust. The biggest tell is the soot on the hatch....
The PE is not inexpensive.... & the price doesn't look like it will come down any time soon.