SuperChargers vs. turbo
10-25-2007, 07:00 PM
#1
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Scionetics
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Location: peoria az
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SuperChargers vs. turbo
i need help! i have a XB with Automatic transmission stock Engine with cold airintake , catback and i want 2 get a turbo or a SuperChargers that would be the best for power and to keep my stock Engine safe??
10-25-2007, 07:24 PM
#2
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I am sure you are going to get a lot of info and a lot of opinions,, but I would say that you can make more power with a turbo (all depending on size) than with a supercharger. I feel that the supercharger is "safer",, but all depends on the amount of boost. More boost,, more HP,, and more danger to the engine. Either run with a moderate boost would probably be relatively safe. Hopefully you will get some responses from folks who have actually done one or the other.
10-25-2007, 11:07 PM
#5
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i have had both. The turbo has been awsome for power, and reliability.
I got rid of the supercharger because it was nothing but a headache. Too many issues with the supcharger setup on the xA's and xB's. Of course there will be posts following this one with ones that have superchargers that say to get the supercharger... i would too if i made a $3000 investment, but it is a mistake (and i made it too).
Go Turbo or u'll regret it down the road.
I got rid of the supercharger because it was nothing but a headache. Too many issues with the supcharger setup on the xA's and xB's. Of course there will be posts following this one with ones that have superchargers that say to get the supercharger... i would too if i made a $3000 investment, but it is a mistake (and i made it too).
Go Turbo or u'll regret it down the road.
10-25-2007, 11:28 PM
#7
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Originally Posted by hotbox05
what s/c kit did you have ? a s/c kit is much less of a headache as it cannot boost spike.
Im so tempted to go away from my TuRD S/C and go turbo.
BTW for the turbo for an xA or xB you may want to look at turbo toyotas.
10-25-2007, 11:37 PM
#8
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the only problem with ALL boost is cali hates us. and the only companies making smog legal kits are greddy , and procharger/ats. but the only cars with legal kits are honduhs and nissan's
and yes the s/cs have more internal parts but they as a whole kit are much easier to take on and off than a turbo kit. at least on an xB they have been for me.
and since i'm in cali I have to/would have to take the s/c or turbo on and off for smog tests and when the hood gets popped and I get to visit the good ol state ref.
and yes the s/cs have more internal parts but they as a whole kit are much easier to take on and off than a turbo kit. at least on an xB they have been for me.
and since i'm in cali I have to/would have to take the s/c or turbo on and off for smog tests and when the hood gets popped and I get to visit the good ol state ref.
10-26-2007, 06:15 PM
#10
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Scikotics
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This debate has been going on since SL went online. It really comes down to what failure modes you're better at diagnosing and fixing, and if you want to expand your system at a later time.
The greddy supercharger is not expandable, so you're pretty much stuck with about 114 wheel horsepower, or 30% improvement. My personal reliability problems with it have mostly been self-created. With the supercharger, you will want to replace the crank pulley roll pin with a solid 1/8" steel rod. The only design errors I've encountered are the retaining clip for the tensioner adjustment screw came off and the bypass valve got stuck open. The tensioner screw slipping caused me to have to overtorque the tensioner pulley nut to hold it in place. I eventually sheared the bolt and am having a new bolt and screw machined. There is a work-around using off-the shelf bolts from Lowe's, it just doesn't look as nice. The stuck bypass valve was making it so I got no boost, so engine damage was not really possible, and was fixed by using machine oil on the lever arm where it enters the throttle body and exercising the valve with the engine off.
The main problem on the supercharger though is belt slippage, I'm convinced you can never make it not slip on startup in cold weather. Once the engine warms up, the slippage goes away and it isn't an issue in the summer. The only way the supercharger can really damage your engine is if the crank pin shears and causes the crank pulley to stop turning or if the bypass valve sticks closed. The crank pulley in free spin won't affect your timing but it will cut off the water pump and alternator. The bypass valve sticking closed may cause a lean condition, not sure if it would be enough for detonation.
If you really want to go the supercharger route, the PE model has the highest output, but will hurt your fuel economy more than the Blitz and Greddy.
Blown_xa had a bad experience with the S/C but I wouldn't let that sway you on it's reliability. Can't say how many of his problems were design errors or from manufacturing. I believe he was also running nitrous at the time, which does lend another level of complexity to achieve a proper tune. I believe PTuning installed it so you can probably rule out install error though.
I would probably buy a turbo if I had to do it again. At the time, Greddy didn't make an intercooler add-on for theirs and I didn't want to run a turbo without one. I also didn't have the cash for a Turbotoyota and wasn't too keen on cutting out the crash bar. The final reason I didn't originally go with it was having to tap into the engine oil and possibly the water as well depending on setup. BTW, I got my S/C for about 2,200, so the 1k price difference was a big factor.
The greddy supercharger is not expandable, so you're pretty much stuck with about 114 wheel horsepower, or 30% improvement. My personal reliability problems with it have mostly been self-created. With the supercharger, you will want to replace the crank pulley roll pin with a solid 1/8" steel rod. The only design errors I've encountered are the retaining clip for the tensioner adjustment screw came off and the bypass valve got stuck open. The tensioner screw slipping caused me to have to overtorque the tensioner pulley nut to hold it in place. I eventually sheared the bolt and am having a new bolt and screw machined. There is a work-around using off-the shelf bolts from Lowe's, it just doesn't look as nice. The stuck bypass valve was making it so I got no boost, so engine damage was not really possible, and was fixed by using machine oil on the lever arm where it enters the throttle body and exercising the valve with the engine off.
The main problem on the supercharger though is belt slippage, I'm convinced you can never make it not slip on startup in cold weather. Once the engine warms up, the slippage goes away and it isn't an issue in the summer. The only way the supercharger can really damage your engine is if the crank pin shears and causes the crank pulley to stop turning or if the bypass valve sticks closed. The crank pulley in free spin won't affect your timing but it will cut off the water pump and alternator. The bypass valve sticking closed may cause a lean condition, not sure if it would be enough for detonation.
If you really want to go the supercharger route, the PE model has the highest output, but will hurt your fuel economy more than the Blitz and Greddy.
Blown_xa had a bad experience with the S/C but I wouldn't let that sway you on it's reliability. Can't say how many of his problems were design errors or from manufacturing. I believe he was also running nitrous at the time, which does lend another level of complexity to achieve a proper tune. I believe PTuning installed it so you can probably rule out install error though.
I would probably buy a turbo if I had to do it again. At the time, Greddy didn't make an intercooler add-on for theirs and I didn't want to run a turbo without one. I also didn't have the cash for a Turbotoyota and wasn't too keen on cutting out the crash bar. The final reason I didn't originally go with it was having to tap into the engine oil and possibly the water as well depending on setup. BTW, I got my S/C for about 2,200, so the 1k price difference was a big factor.
10-27-2007, 05:10 AM
#11
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Originally Posted by hotbox05
what s/c kit did you have ? a s/c kit is much less of a headache as it cannot boost spike.
10-29-2007, 03:27 AM
#12
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I personally would go with the supercharger just make sure you change out the pin thats on the crank pulley cuz that is sure the shear off... but other then that I dont see much a off a headache if you get the greddy supercharger. If you want the most hp you can get then get a turbo.... but thats my .02c
10-30-2007, 02:45 PM
#13
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it's not the design of the superchargers that made headaches for me, it was the design of the car & engine. the main belt is a 4pk, very narrow and it WILL slip unless tended to once a week... meaning retension and spray with belt dressing. The supercharger puts A LOT of stress on the belts, the belt will stretch over time and you have to adjust tension accordingly. Greddy did a better job with their kit because it utilized a 6pk belt that goes from the charger to the alternator, but the main belt will still slip. If you do get it to not slip... then that's when u start shearing crank pulley pins because the strain is tranfred to the crank more. I am the one that came up with the idea of using the drill bit, over a year ago. It does work but will chew up an aluminum pulley fast, so stick with the steel oem one. The ultimate thing would be to get ALL of the pullies on the motor (waterpump, ac, crank, alternator, supercharger and idler ) custom made in a 6pk width. Along with that get the end of the crankshaft machined like the tC ( keyed end) and custom crank pulley made to fit, that way the setup is much more efficiant. Also get an auto adjusting belt tensionor so the belt tension stays consistant as temperature changesn and belt stretchs.
10-31-2007, 10:53 PM
#15
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Originally Posted by blown_xa
it's not the design of the superchargers that made headaches for me, it was the design of the car & engine. the main belt is a 4pk, very narrow and it WILL slip unless tended to once a week... meaning retension and spray with belt dressing. The supercharger puts A LOT of stress on the belts, the belt will stretch over time and you have to adjust tension accordingly. Greddy did a better job with their kit because it utilized a 6pk belt that goes from the charger to the alternator, but the main belt will still slip. If you do get it to not slip... then that's when u start shearing crank pulley pins because the strain is tranfred to the crank more. I am the one that came up with the idea of using the drill bit, over a year ago. It does work but will chew up an aluminum pulley fast, so stick with the steel oem one. The ultimate thing would be to get ALL of the pullies on the motor (waterpump, ac, crank, alternator, supercharger and idler ) custom made in a 6pk width. Along with that get the end of the crankshaft machined like the tC ( keyed end) and custom crank pulley made to fit, that way the setup is much more efficiant. Also get an auto adjusting belt tensionor so the belt tension stays consistant as temperature changesn and belt stretchs.
11-01-2007, 10:07 AM
#16
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Japan
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I have an Auto BB and I am turboing too. I have discovered something cool. Here there is a company that makes a electronic control for the BB Automatic transmission. Essentially the it sits between the ECU and the engine and intercepts the signal from the engine/trans and the sends signal to the tranny to control shift points under various conditions. This will help a lot when turboing an Auto.
11-01-2007, 08:22 PM
#18
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there is no site that I know of. It is only available here in Japan.
I found out by chance, as I was talking to one of the guys at the shop about dropping in the turbo and he suggested getting the shifter control unit. It is programmable. I will try to get a pic and scan it if I can.
I found out by chance, as I was talking to one of the guys at the shop about dropping in the turbo and he suggested getting the shifter control unit. It is programmable. I will try to get a pic and scan it if I can.
12-10-2007, 09:12 PM
#20
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If it was available here............ I'd have 1. And they do work.
There should be a way to make this mod at the transmission.
Vett this is a project for you. There is no way you will ever see the benifet of the SC the way the manual car does. Trust me, I own 2 05s, 1 standard, 1 auto. My x partner has an 06 auto with a Greddy SC. My standard has the SC . With the softest tires I own, at a roll, I can blow the tires off in 1st. If you could shift the auto, without the lag, the auto car has the potential to be a much quicker car & it has the gearing for better fuel econmy = better DD.
fluxingnation, if you can get a picture up for us to look at, that would be a start & thanks for the info.
There should be a way to make this mod at the transmission.
Vett this is a project for you. There is no way you will ever see the benifet of the SC the way the manual car does. Trust me, I own 2 05s, 1 standard, 1 auto. My x partner has an 06 auto with a Greddy SC. My standard has the SC . With the softest tires I own, at a roll, I can blow the tires off in 1st. If you could shift the auto, without the lag, the auto car has the potential to be a much quicker car & it has the gearing for better fuel econmy = better DD.
fluxingnation, if you can get a picture up for us to look at, that would be a start & thanks for the info.