Shoof

I did all the research I needed to do here, so hopefully my comments/questions will be relatively new.

I'm aware of the speaker sizes that we can go with for an upgrade. My needs are pretty simple. I am using the stock HU and simply want to get a better sound by upgrading the stock speakers on my '05 xB RS2 without having the need to add any amps or crossovers. Money is a little bit of an issue and do not want to spend a whole lot of money to do this simple upgrade. I also don't play my music ridiculously loud. I play it loud enough that I can hear it nice and crisp, especially at the highway speeds I spend most of my driving doing.
I understand that a good suggestion for the dash was to use a 4" speaker, more notably the Pioneer TS-G1040R (now discontinued) or TS-G1041R (replacement for the 1040 I believe). Few comments about that. I noticed in a few of the searches I made, one poster had to make a bracket to extend the existing bracket on the speaker to fit the stock hole to mount the speaker (see reply by "dohboy" https://www.scionlife.com/forums/vie...=speaker+sizes) Do these brackets come with the speakers for situations like this?
Another poster also suggested the same idea, although he didn't create any extra bracket to fit the mounting hole, it looks like he used a bigger screw, but doesn't explain much in the post about his mounting issues if any (see this thread https://www.scionlife.com/forums/vie...eaker++upgrade)
Other than these two different methods of upgrading the dash speakers, the next question I have is this...Before reading, understand that I know a good amount of information about cars, but not very much about audio. Now you can read on before rolling your eyes: Considering that the OE speaker seems to be nothing more than a tweeter, why would you put a bigger 2 way speaker and then adding bass blockers to eliminate all other sound other than the tweeter portion of the speakers (that is what bass blockers do, right? ) Wouldn't it make more sense to just add a tweeter for the same effect? :moreconfused: Even more so, for my needs, do I really need to put bass blockers? This questions wasn't answered in searched posts I found that gave me enough of an understanding whether I do or don't need it.

Next up is the speakers on the doors and rear of the car. I did some looking around from Crutchfield, other than the fact that they say that they have no suggestions for the dash at all, they recommend either a 5 1/4 or 6 1/2 speaker for the doors or rear.

Before getting to my next comment, another question from left field.....Does it really matter if the speaker brand matches all around or not?

I know Pioneer relatively well and like their product. I'd love to stick to it all around. For the doors, Crutchfield shows the TS-G1341R (5 1/4") or TS-G1641R (6 1/2") does not fit the door. As a matter of fact, they show no Pioneer speakers to fit the door at all. What is it that would not let it fit without destroying the arear around the stock speakers to get it to fit? I'm creative and all and will find a way to retrofit if I have to, but If there's an opportunity to fit something easier without cutting it up to crap, I'm game....

On the other hand, for the rear speakers, the 1341 or 1641 both show to be exact fits.

Last question before you all kill me...Based on my needs, would I really notice a big difference in sound between the 5 1/4" and 6 1/2" speakers?

The way I see it now, I'm considering the 1040/1041 for the dash (with or without b. blockers), the 1341's for the door and 1641's for the rear, or maybe vice versa. More confused than me yet?

Discuss...... Thanks!

Spr0ket

Something you should look into down the road would be minimalist sound deadening. That would bring up the volume of the audio and tune out the white-noise of the road. Since money is a major concern in the setup, I would recomend treading in sound deadening later on if you feel a need for more audio volume.

What you can do is fabricate a similar bracket using a simple head unit backstrap. Go to any good ma and pa stereo shop (that throws Best Buy and Circuit City out of the picture thank god) and they will probably give you the straps you need for free. Another option would be to use the same screw and a large washer to hold the speaker in place.

Since you will be running unamped, you need them. However, instead of the insanely high level recommended by some places, you can get away with 120Hz and up. With an amped setup, you can set the ranges you want for the area. So if your front stage (doors and dash) each have their own 2-channel amp, you can tweak the levels at the amp to control the tonal balance to your preferred listening environment. You add even more control with a component crossover system. Since you are sticking with the stock head unit without amps, I would recommend putting on some blockers for the dash. Check around for the levels others have done. I would give you my settings off the amps, but I have a three-way component setup.

No, buy what your ear likes. If you want to go all one brand, that's fine... but remember some brands offer better products in some areas but horrid products in others. So, pioneer may have a good tweeter selection, it doesn't mean their mid-range drivers will be on the same level.

For the doors not to fit or the rears not to fit it would have to do with space. If the protrusion above the mounting plane is larger than the space to the first obstical, then crutchfield automatically writes it off as a "no-fit" speaker. Would it be possible to make them fit? Sure there would. Either minor cutting to the plastic panels, creation of an MDF (molecular density fiber board) ring, or both. Heck, I've seen 7" free air subs mounted in the doors of the xB and 6x9s mounted in the back panel. It all depends on how install savy you are and how extreme you want to take it. For drop in fit though, I would go with what crutchfield says fits, that way you will have no headaches in the install process.

There will be a difference between 5.25" and 6.5" speakers. You have a larger piston area and more often than not a longer throw (xmax). There are many factors to take into play though, as I've seen some 5.25" speakers blow the socks off of 6.5"... but since we are talking the same brand and line of speakers for that brand, the 6.5" should be better by comparison.

And of course, when it's all said and done, post your results and what you like and dislike of the install. I'll be happy to help where I can.

Shoof

I read your reply a few times and appreciate the advice more and more every time I read it. I went today and bought the TS-G1041R speakers for the dash, as well as 200hz bass blockers. Installation was pretty simple and straight forward. I didn't get technical and start soldering the wires together or using any connectors, I simply wrapped them together and covered my tracks with some electrical tape. I know it's not the optimal thing to do, but it works for me. The sound isn't tremendously better, but you do hear a bit of a difference between stock and the way I am now.
I have to buy the door and rear speakers now, and we'll see how it all ties together. Will let you know. Thanks!

Shoof

Well, I completed the transformation, and have to say I'm pretty disappointed. I changed the door speakers and rear speakers. I did not put sound insulation, but I did put foam baffles behind each speaker to bring more of the sound into the car.
I chose a 5 1/4" Kenwood KFC-1360S for the doors, per the suggestion of Crutchfield.
For the rears, I chose the Pioneer TS-G1641R 6 1/2" speaker. It pretty much eliminated all of the somewhat deep bass that would come out of the stock speakers, making you need to add in bass by means of a sub or a tube. I can't match the better sound that came out of the stock speakers at all. If I turn up the volume to a comfortable level that would have sounded good out of the stockers, it sounds like empty bass with the new speakers. WTF did I do wrong?
Overall:

tanakasan

I have *heard* that those foam baffles kill the sound.

Also, be sure that everything is wired "in phase"...out of phase and your bass will be gone. Should NOT be worse that stock!

Shouldn't the 6-1/2's go up front?

Crutchfield good/Crutchfield bad. At least you have the 30 day return policy!

(says quietly...eD...eD...eD)

zarquonfrood

Ive never used the baffles personally, but i read some of the reviews on crutchfield, and people who had your problem said the bass was worlds better without the baffles/or by cutting holes in the baffles. I would take the baffles out and see if its any better.


also, ive heard crappy things about kenwood speakers, but no personal experience...hopefully the baffle removal fixes it. Otherwise adding a sub and using crossovers to limit the door speakers to high frequency would help too, but thats more money.

zarquonfrood

whoa tanakasan beat me to it. :D

(also shouts Elemental Designs FFS!)

^_^

tanakasan

Hi Tyler!

Shoof

What exactly are you referring to when you say "in phase"?

Crutchfield provided the correct connectors for Toyota's, so i'm pretty sure everything was connected correct.

I put in the 5 1/4" speakers in the door because that was Crutchfield's suggestion that would safely fit without too much modification

I guess I'll take the baffles out to see if they make a difference. I don't understand how that would affect the bass though. Any other suggestions?

tanakasan

In phase means that both speakers push in/out at the same time.

If one goes out while one goes in, your bass will dissapear. Be sure that the positive speaker wire goes to positive speaker terminal. Neg to neg, likewise. Could come from being miswired at the HU or speaker leads reversed at the speaker. Could be just one or many of your speakers. Double check-triple check-its important! Should not sound worse than stock.

Basically, speakers need air space behind to sound good. In addition, a lack of vibration and resonance (deadening) will help. We are asking a car door to act as a proper speaker enclosure here! Those baffles cut the air space to almost nothing.

Spr0ket

Phase is everything. Here's what you can do to test the phase of the speakers.

Set your output all the way to the front left. Listen to the sound carefully and slowly fade it to the right. If there is less bass when the fade is TDC (top dead center), then the speakers in the doors or dash (or both) are out of phase from each other. If they are out of phase, swap the positive and negative terminals for one speaker and test again. Continue testing until you find the majority of the bass is eminent when the fader is TDC. Once you have completed the front phase testing, you should do the same testing with the left front and left rear. Fade from front left to back left listening for the most optimal bass output when the fader is TDC. If you need to swap the leads on the speaker, make sure you swap the leads on the back speaker. Once this far, you can then test the back speakers for phase cancellation using the same method applied on the front. If you need to swap the phase of the back speakers, make sure you swap the right rear since you know the left rear is in phase with the front.

As for the foam baffles killing the sound, there may be a reduction in the sound by dispersing the standing waves, but it should ensure the acoustic output is cleaner. After all, we are trying to take a shoebox and turn it into the ultimate speaker cabinet (shoebox referring to car doors).

Shoof

I hear ya....So what benefit is it to have the baffles if they don't seem to do much good in this situation?

Also, as for the wiring, again, I used a wire/connector that came from Crutchfield that plugged into the speaker, and the other end a connector that went right into the the factory connection. Could it be the wiring they sent me was reversed?

Spr0ket

Before you remove the baffles, check the phase. It's not likely that Crutchfield sent you the wrong wire harness. It's possible Crutchfield sent you the only harness they have. Test the phase trick and let us know. You should have a huge difference just by fading everything to the front.

Shoof

There is a big difference shifting everything to the front. You can barely hear anything coming out of the back, most of the sound is up front.
I also want to double check and make sure that I connected the dash speakers correct, along with making sure the caps are connected to the + wire and not the -. I realized after the installation that the Red is + on the left and Green is + on the right. Did not know this before I did the install of the dash speakers. So that pretty much means I might have screwed up the dash speaker connecting, but definately not the doors or rears, because I used the wiring harness provided by crutchfield for those, while the dash was a splicing DIY'er.
Damn the speakers really sound bad. I'll try to do it tomorrow if I get some free time at work. Will let you know. Thanks!

mandos

Alright...the baffles make your speakers think they are in very small sealed enclosures. Basically killing the low end on them very nicely, or sometimes they act as aperiodic membranes...which are a huge PITA to correctly tune even for experienced folks.

The best thing to do if you want to keep those baffles in, cut the bottom 1/2 off. You'll still get protection from water(if you have that much falling through your window, you have issues), and they won't screw up the sound.

Do you have an amp on the speakers?

zarquonfrood

hey mandos, if you are using your front stage for just mids and highs, would the baffles help your sound by further eliminating low frequencies?

mandos

Honestly...I haven't had any personal experience with them...but enough people have said they = not good and I can understand why.

Realistically, it's unnecessary...and if you have that much water falling in your doors, I say fix your seals

Shoof

Well, I took out the baffles all around....The sound is definately better than with the baffles installed. The bass is back. The only difference between the stock speakers and now, is that the stockers gave you a little more of a deep sounding thump of the bass, while the new speakers have a clean "popping" sound of bass. The highs are much more clear, being that all the speakers have tweeters in them (all are 2 ways), compared to the stock speakers. Crank it up and the pop sounds like crap. I was able to crank up the stockers without serious distortion of the bass, but can't do it on the new speakers. I'm talking putting the stock radio to the volume of 45, anything more and fuhgetaboutit. With the stock setup, turning the volume up, you'd see the mirrors vibrating a bit from the bass, whereas the new setup there's barely a vibration.

Again, they are a heck of a lot more clear sounding though. So even with the baffles un-installed, bottom line, the car lost some of the deep bass I was hoping to get out of these speakers. Almost makes me say f- it and just add a sub. But I reaaaaaly don't want to take up any more storage space, in which there isn't enough to begin with. Oh well. I feel like taking them out and just re-installing the stock speakers.

One side note: I double checked the connections of the dash speakers to make sure I connected the bass blockers to the right wire (pink on the left, green on the right), I did install them correctly. They still give off some bass though, is that what it should be doing? I thought the mini caps are supposed to eliminate the bass?

tanakasan

Maybe its not less bass now, but more highs?

You now have twice as much tweeter compared to stock. I am sure that Pioneer considered the overall balance of sound from the stock comps. Also try turning off any "loudness" or bass boost.

The caps will lessen the bass, not cut it off. They provide a 6db/octave roll off at the chosen frequency. The coaxes should be able to be run full frequency-w/o the caps. There are already caps there for the tweeters. Try it carefully.

Try adding deadening or perhaps a hand full of polyfill behind the speakers?

Its a constant quest for better sound!

PaRaGoNViCtiM

You should really look into Elemental Designs eDi's. I was running a set of 6000s with no amp, and there is a huge performance difference between these and the stock speakers.