SUBWOOFER 1-12" or 2-12"???
08-30-2006, 02:01 AM
#1
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SUBWOOFER 1-12" or 2-12"???
I've narrowed down my subwoofer search to JL w6'. I was just wondering what peoples opinion was as to 2 10" woofers or 1 12" one. Ive decided on the 500/1 amp and I have and XB. I like to listen to all kinds of music from Rage against the machine to Bob Marley, Black Sabbath, Madonna, Devo, to talk radio (NPR). I like to listen to it loud at times and normal at others.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Any advice would be appreciated.
08-30-2006, 02:38 AM
#3
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I want more bass than I have without a subwoofer. Not knowing too much about the subject. I was wondering if anyone could tell me the diffence in the sounds of the two. Is one cleaner, one louder? just an opion from someone who has heard these particular subs.
08-30-2006, 04:02 AM
#4
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Advice is free so here you go!
I build my own boxes and have played with 10 & 12” JL woofers in sealed and ported boxes. There are a lot of variables but lets keep it simple.
By your music choice you are bias toward “Rock” and not so much Hip Hop/Rap.
With that in mind I would go with the 10” subs. 2 10” subs are better than one.
Put them in sealed boxes in the middle of their air volume range.
I am not sure what you are putting them in but you cant go wrong boundary loading them off the back. That means face them toward the back of the trunk or door about 6” away.
You can also down fire them. This works best when they are under your seat. With this method you will “feel” them more.
Sealed boxes have 2 primary benefits other than giving you the sound you want.
1. They are smaller than ported boxes.
2. They can’t go sub-sonic and shake them selves apart.
The set up I described will give you that nice bass hit you hear a lot in Van Halen type music.
A bigger sub in a “loose” (built to the max air volume) or a ported box will more-so give you the sub-bass you get from hip-hop/rap.
It’s hard to describe bass sound. Listen to a few friends systems if you can.
Hope that helps!
I build my own boxes and have played with 10 & 12” JL woofers in sealed and ported boxes. There are a lot of variables but lets keep it simple.
By your music choice you are bias toward “Rock” and not so much Hip Hop/Rap.
With that in mind I would go with the 10” subs. 2 10” subs are better than one.
Put them in sealed boxes in the middle of their air volume range.
I am not sure what you are putting them in but you cant go wrong boundary loading them off the back. That means face them toward the back of the trunk or door about 6” away.
You can also down fire them. This works best when they are under your seat. With this method you will “feel” them more.
Sealed boxes have 2 primary benefits other than giving you the sound you want.
1. They are smaller than ported boxes.
2. They can’t go sub-sonic and shake them selves apart.
The set up I described will give you that nice bass hit you hear a lot in Van Halen type music.
A bigger sub in a “loose” (built to the max air volume) or a ported box will more-so give you the sub-bass you get from hip-hop/rap.
It’s hard to describe bass sound. Listen to a few friends systems if you can.
Hope that helps!
08-30-2006, 05:07 AM
#6
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I have spent a few bucks and lots of trial and error trying to find the sound I like.
I currently own a 96 Chrysler LHS (and an 05 xB). Here is a link http://p079.ezboard.com/fcaraudiotal...picID=30.topic to some older pictures of the install I did on the LHS.
The total system watts are about 2200 RMS (not peak). 3/4 of that is bass and mid bass. The large door speakers are 8" midbass. What you don’t see is a pair of 5-1/2" midranges and a pair of 6" midbasses in the package tray.
What I learned with this set up is it’s hard to get good bass from the trunk to the cabin. Boundary loading is a must in this car! Something else you don’t see in the pix is the 3 speaker sub box is on rails, it slides from it’s cubby hole against the back seat to 6” away from the back of my trunk for times when I need my trunk space.
The sub box holds 2 10” subs and one 12”. Anyone will tell you not to mix sub sizes as they will cancel each other out and you will get weak bass.
The 12” is low passed at 40hz and the 10’s are hi passed at 40hz. So the 12” hits the sub bass notes and the 10’s go up from there to about 80hz.
The 3 subs are using about 1300 watts.
In contrast to this I put 1 10” sub in my wife’s S-10 truck with about 180 watts feeding it.
It was downfiring behind the seats in a sealed box. It sounded nearly as good as my set up but you could “feel” it hitting! I later ported it and my god was it awesome!
I have an xB also. I am not 100% sure what I am going to do with the system at install time but you can damn sure bet I will be putting 10” subs under each front seat downfiring into the floor.
That’s enough yapping for me.
Any questions feel free to ask.
I currently own a 96 Chrysler LHS (and an 05 xB). Here is a link http://p079.ezboard.com/fcaraudiotal...picID=30.topic to some older pictures of the install I did on the LHS.
The total system watts are about 2200 RMS (not peak). 3/4 of that is bass and mid bass. The large door speakers are 8" midbass. What you don’t see is a pair of 5-1/2" midranges and a pair of 6" midbasses in the package tray.
What I learned with this set up is it’s hard to get good bass from the trunk to the cabin. Boundary loading is a must in this car! Something else you don’t see in the pix is the 3 speaker sub box is on rails, it slides from it’s cubby hole against the back seat to 6” away from the back of my trunk for times when I need my trunk space.
The sub box holds 2 10” subs and one 12”. Anyone will tell you not to mix sub sizes as they will cancel each other out and you will get weak bass.
The 12” is low passed at 40hz and the 10’s are hi passed at 40hz. So the 12” hits the sub bass notes and the 10’s go up from there to about 80hz.
The 3 subs are using about 1300 watts.
In contrast to this I put 1 10” sub in my wife’s S-10 truck with about 180 watts feeding it.
It was downfiring behind the seats in a sealed box. It sounded nearly as good as my set up but you could “feel” it hitting! I later ported it and my god was it awesome!
I have an xB also. I am not 100% sure what I am going to do with the system at install time but you can damn sure bet I will be putting 10” subs under each front seat downfiring into the floor.
That’s enough yapping for me.
Any questions feel free to ask.
I have 100watts on it and it's plenty. I want to get the 250/1 to push it alittle harder. Unless you are a basshead get one 12 with the 250/1.
08-30-2006, 06:19 AM
#10
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This should make things nice and easy for you:
This is always a topic of debate. "Should I go with two 10" or one 12" sub?"
Here are some facts to help you make your decision, because ultimately, no one can tell you which is better. You need to decide for yourself.
Fact: The smaller the drive the more accurate the sound reproduction will be.
If you are going for volume then go with the single 12" sub. If you are leaning towards accuracy go with the 10". With two 10" subs you will get the best of both worlds.
FACT: Bass is non directional.
This is true as long as the enclosure is designed and constructed properly. If the enclosure is sane, the direction that the woofers are firing will not make much if any difference. bass does "like" to bounce off of larger objects, and looking at the inside of an xB, you will see the bass has no choice but to bounce around in the close proximity of the smallish cabin.
FACT: Sealed enclosures have a wider frequency range reproduction, generally smaller enclosure sizes, and tends to handle more power than other types of enclosures (look at dB drag cars, all sealed enclosures). And are relatively easy to build.
The drawbacks are that sealed enclosures are less efficient than ported types and have little to no tune ability.
FACT: A ported enclosure will give you a 3 to 6 dB gain over a sealed enclosure and are very efficient.
The drawbacks, sealed enclosure are very rarely designed and built properly by the "DO It Yourselfers" and have no output below the tuning frequency.
Basically, there is no such thing as the "perfect" sub enclosure. If you were you, I would go with the two 10" subs in a solid sealed enclosure. If you build it yourself and use silicone to seal it, let the silicone and wood glue dry overnight before mounting the sub into the enclosure. The silicone fumes will eat away at the foam surround on the woofer. The glue is what is really holding the wood together. The more it can cure before you start to apply sound pressure to it, the better. Since you listen to more rock, you should notice that the newer recordings have very little bas recorded on the CD. The two subs will help compensate for this and give you a better sound.
A few thoughts on you amp choice. I think the 500/1 is an awesome amp, but the power supply might be a little hard on your alternator. Instead, think about the JL Audio A1800 instead. This is a non regulated power supply amp and will play very loud without damaging you car's charging system.
BTW
I noticed you didn’t mention anything about upper frequency reproduction. I hope you have a nice set of components and an amp to run them!
Good Luck…
This is always a topic of debate. "Should I go with two 10" or one 12" sub?"
Here are some facts to help you make your decision, because ultimately, no one can tell you which is better. You need to decide for yourself.
Fact: The smaller the drive the more accurate the sound reproduction will be.
If you are going for volume then go with the single 12" sub. If you are leaning towards accuracy go with the 10". With two 10" subs you will get the best of both worlds.
FACT: Bass is non directional.
This is true as long as the enclosure is designed and constructed properly. If the enclosure is sane, the direction that the woofers are firing will not make much if any difference. bass does "like" to bounce off of larger objects, and looking at the inside of an xB, you will see the bass has no choice but to bounce around in the close proximity of the smallish cabin.
FACT: Sealed enclosures have a wider frequency range reproduction, generally smaller enclosure sizes, and tends to handle more power than other types of enclosures (look at dB drag cars, all sealed enclosures). And are relatively easy to build.
The drawbacks are that sealed enclosures are less efficient than ported types and have little to no tune ability.
FACT: A ported enclosure will give you a 3 to 6 dB gain over a sealed enclosure and are very efficient.
The drawbacks, sealed enclosure are very rarely designed and built properly by the "DO It Yourselfers" and have no output below the tuning frequency.
Basically, there is no such thing as the "perfect" sub enclosure. If you were you, I would go with the two 10" subs in a solid sealed enclosure. If you build it yourself and use silicone to seal it, let the silicone and wood glue dry overnight before mounting the sub into the enclosure. The silicone fumes will eat away at the foam surround on the woofer. The glue is what is really holding the wood together. The more it can cure before you start to apply sound pressure to it, the better. Since you listen to more rock, you should notice that the newer recordings have very little bas recorded on the CD. The two subs will help compensate for this and give you a better sound.
A few thoughts on you amp choice. I think the 500/1 is an awesome amp, but the power supply might be a little hard on your alternator. Instead, think about the JL Audio A1800 instead. This is a non regulated power supply amp and will play very loud without damaging you car's charging system.
BTW
I noticed you didn’t mention anything about upper frequency reproduction. I hope you have a nice set of components and an amp to run them!
Good Luck…
08-30-2006, 12:44 PM
#11
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I agree with everything but this:
ported enclosures are all over the SPL scene, especially DB Drag. the top competitors and the people pumping out the loudest SPL are using ported enclosures.
I really like sealed enclosures and the sound they produce but you have to do your research when buying subwoofers to make sure the subs are designed to be put in an enclosure that you want to use and will fit in the airspace you have.
Originally Posted by KingOfAllCarAudio
(look at dB drag cars, all sealed enclosures).
I really like sealed enclosures and the sound they produce but you have to do your research when buying subwoofers to make sure the subs are designed to be put in an enclosure that you want to use and will fit in the airspace you have.
08-30-2006, 01:36 PM
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JL Audio W6v2... in my opinion, an excellent choice!! These subs are extremely accurate, clean, and clear when they are installed in a proper enclosure and backed up by a solid amp.
For your tastes in music, I would have to recommend going with two 10's in a sealed enclosure. They would have a tighter, more accurate bass response and still be plenty loud!
King did bring up a good point about your hi's. With the bass you are going to be producing, you are probably going to notice that your highs cannot keep up and seem to be drowned out by the sub(s). You may need to consider upgrading the highs and adding a decent amp to power them as well.
By itself, I don't think the 500/1 will draw enough current to do any damage to the charging system of the xB, although it is pretty weak. You may occasionally notice some slight headlight dimming at full tilt. If you do choose to go with another amp for your highs in the future, you may need to consider going to a larger alternator and battery setup to support the load.
Ah, such is the life of the audiophile!
Have fun with the JL!!
For your tastes in music, I would have to recommend going with two 10's in a sealed enclosure. They would have a tighter, more accurate bass response and still be plenty loud!
King did bring up a good point about your hi's. With the bass you are going to be producing, you are probably going to notice that your highs cannot keep up and seem to be drowned out by the sub(s). You may need to consider upgrading the highs and adding a decent amp to power them as well.
By itself, I don't think the 500/1 will draw enough current to do any damage to the charging system of the xB, although it is pretty weak. You may occasionally notice some slight headlight dimming at full tilt. If you do choose to go with another amp for your highs in the future, you may need to consider going to a larger alternator and battery setup to support the load.
Ah, such is the life of the audiophile!
Have fun with the JL!!
08-30-2006, 02:45 PM
#13
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I would Highly suggest the Ov line of subs from Elemental Designs. They're on par with the JL w6's but at a fraction of the cost... plus, for being a forum member, you get a discount off alot of their products.
CLICK HERE FOR FORUM DISCOUNTS
CLICK HERE FOR FORUM DISCOUNTS
08-30-2006, 03:17 PM
#14
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Wow great intelligent response for the topic!
I have not played with lots of setups in lots of cars but I do have to disagree with one of KingOfAllCarAudio’s facts:
FACT: Bass is non-directional.
This is true as long as the enclosure is designed and constructed properly. If the enclosure is sane, the direction that the woofers are firing will not make much if any difference.
I have played extensively with sub placement in my LHS and without a doubt they sound best boundary loaded against the back of the trunk. The boxes I build are simple sealed enclosures made to work with the subs specifications. I have tried ported boxes but the bass is too “loose” (not accurate) for my tastes.
Like I said, my box is on rails (drawer slides actually) so the box can move front to back. I have a latch that keeps it in place at the back of the trunk. On occasion the latch becomes unlatched and the box slides to the back of the seats. I can tell the difference right away, less sound and feel.
I have aimed subs up, down against the sides ECT and nothing works better than aiming them 6” off the back of the trunk in the LHS. I played a bit with the wife’s S-10 and her Grand Prix as well. The Grand Prix likes boundary loading off the back of the trunk but the S-10 liked downfiring.
For a great tech article explaining what I am talking about go here http://www.installer.com/tech/aiming.html
By the way KingOfAllCarAudio that was a great post otherwise, good job!
Hope that helps!
I have not played with lots of setups in lots of cars but I do have to disagree with one of KingOfAllCarAudio’s facts:
FACT: Bass is non-directional.
This is true as long as the enclosure is designed and constructed properly. If the enclosure is sane, the direction that the woofers are firing will not make much if any difference.
I have played extensively with sub placement in my LHS and without a doubt they sound best boundary loaded against the back of the trunk. The boxes I build are simple sealed enclosures made to work with the subs specifications. I have tried ported boxes but the bass is too “loose” (not accurate) for my tastes.
Like I said, my box is on rails (drawer slides actually) so the box can move front to back. I have a latch that keeps it in place at the back of the trunk. On occasion the latch becomes unlatched and the box slides to the back of the seats. I can tell the difference right away, less sound and feel.
I have aimed subs up, down against the sides ECT and nothing works better than aiming them 6” off the back of the trunk in the LHS. I played a bit with the wife’s S-10 and her Grand Prix as well. The Grand Prix likes boundary loading off the back of the trunk but the S-10 liked downfiring.
For a great tech article explaining what I am talking about go here http://www.installer.com/tech/aiming.html
By the way KingOfAllCarAudio that was a great post otherwise, good job!
Hope that helps!
08-30-2006, 03:27 PM
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On the contrary, if you take a closer look http://www.termpro.com/dbdrag/ , you will see quite a few more sealed enclosure competitors than ported. Simple fact is, sealed handles more power so it would only make since to use it in dB drag. A majority of the ported enclosure competitors are using two and sometimes four subs to get the 3 dB boost. Anything over that will give you phasing problems.
And considering that xB has an 80 amp alternator and requires 60 amps to operate, 20 amps is not going to cut it on a 500/1. That amp draws 60 amps at full output. The very tightly regulated power supply is designed to achieve full volume under any circumstance. This means when the voltage of the battery begins to drop and the amp can not produce transients responses, the laws of physics say, what you can’t supply in voltage, you will have to make for in amperage. This means your alternator will be attacked next. Say goodbye to your alternator. Do yourself a favor and go with the “A” series amp instead. It cost the same as the 500/1 and will produce plenty of power without sacrificing any sound quality. Plus, if you are using an amp on your highs and you should be), that amp is going to draw amperage as well.
Think about it….
And considering that xB has an 80 amp alternator and requires 60 amps to operate, 20 amps is not going to cut it on a 500/1. That amp draws 60 amps at full output. The very tightly regulated power supply is designed to achieve full volume under any circumstance. This means when the voltage of the battery begins to drop and the amp can not produce transients responses, the laws of physics say, what you can’t supply in voltage, you will have to make for in amperage. This means your alternator will be attacked next. Say goodbye to your alternator. Do yourself a favor and go with the “A” series amp instead. It cost the same as the 500/1 and will produce plenty of power without sacrificing any sound quality. Plus, if you are using an amp on your highs and you should be), that amp is going to draw amperage as well.
Think about it….
08-30-2006, 03:42 PM
#16
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I will tell you how we do it in our stores. Keep in mind that this is only for our higher paying customers because of the work involved. We design the “optimal” enclosure for whatever sub we are going to use. We install it in the vehicle with the amplifier. We run pink noise through the system with a PC RTA and get the sub frequency plot. With that we can see where the shortcoming and peaks of the enclosure are. We then rebuild the enclosure and tune it to accommodate the RTA curve for maximum performance.
No one box will sound the same in all cars. Every car has different acoustics and produces different results with sub bass.
My Audio had this problem as most German cars do because of the sealed trunk area. I removed the rear deck and rebuilt it to be the top of the enclosure. I ported the enclosure on the baffle and installed machine supports on the ceiling (hidden by the headliner) to prevent the roof from flexing and…it has won twice at IASCA National events. I will post a pic for you to see shortly….
No one box will sound the same in all cars. Every car has different acoustics and produces different results with sub bass.
My Audio had this problem as most German cars do because of the sealed trunk area. I removed the rear deck and rebuilt it to be the top of the enclosure. I ported the enclosure on the baffle and installed machine supports on the ceiling (hidden by the headliner) to prevent the roof from flexing and…it has won twice at IASCA National events. I will post a pic for you to see shortly….
08-30-2006, 04:17 PM
#17
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kingofcars! upper frequency reproduction??? UGG..I havent even thought of that..I assume that entails switching out the 4 front speakers and adding an amp. What would you suggest to go with the 2 10" w6' from the JL products? Is this going to cost the same or more than the sub setup? Jeez...my wife is going to kill me if she finds out the real cost of "just getting some new speakers honey"...
08-30-2006, 04:33 PM
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MRPC, it could cost more than your sub setup. It is all depending on what you choose to spend.
Since you are already looking at JL, they do make decent components, too. The ZR components were designed specifically to compliment the W6 and W7 woofers. The ZR's midbass drivers are designed using the same structural concepts as the W6 and W7. Of course, the ZR series are their flagship line of components, they do also have others that are not as expensive.
Elemental Designs, Focal, Boston Acoustics, Infinity... all of these manufacturers make good quality components, some of which are less expensive than others.
An amplifier to push your components is going to be necessary considering the volume you will be producing from those 10's! You will want to get something that is strong enough to drive whatever components you choose, but not something that is going to be too much for them. It all depends on what you choose, and how much you are willing to spend. Welcome to the world of high-quality car audio!
Since you are already looking at JL, they do make decent components, too. The ZR components were designed specifically to compliment the W6 and W7 woofers. The ZR's midbass drivers are designed using the same structural concepts as the W6 and W7. Of course, the ZR series are their flagship line of components, they do also have others that are not as expensive.
Elemental Designs, Focal, Boston Acoustics, Infinity... all of these manufacturers make good quality components, some of which are less expensive than others.
An amplifier to push your components is going to be necessary considering the volume you will be producing from those 10's! You will want to get something that is strong enough to drive whatever components you choose, but not something that is going to be too much for them. It all depends on what you choose, and how much you are willing to spend. Welcome to the world of high-quality car audio!
08-30-2006, 04:49 PM
#19
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I concur; I use the XR525csi in the front of my car only. I had them before the ZR were released. I think I am going to stick with them though. I am a big fan of Focal as well. To be honest, JL Audio, Focal and Dynaudio are the top pics to get. Big dollars as well. To keep within a budget, go with JL Audio VR650CSi and an A4300 to power them. Don’t worry too much about the rear speakers, they are only for rear fill and do not add to the audio reproduction of the sound. Leave your stock speakers in the rear and cross them over high enough to not distort at high volumes. This should keep you in a reasonable price range.
I feel for you on the wife deal. My Audi is in the $40K range for audio gear and install! Check back for pics.
I feel for you on the wife deal. My Audi is in the $40K range for audio gear and install! Check back for pics.
08-30-2006, 04:50 PM
#20
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I'm telling you!!!!! Elemental Designs.... (1) 13Ov.2 (12" sub), Nine.2x for the sub, eDi6500s components (better than the JL XR's), and a Nine.2 for the components. All this plus sub enclosure and wiring should be in the vicinity of $1000 (probably less) where as JL equipment of the same quality/caliber is going to be ~$2000.... this setup from ED is going to sound as good or better than the JL setup as well... Keep the wifey and your wallet a little happier and you still get rockin tunes....
just my $0.02
just my $0.02