scion1616

this is the kinda of crap that gives air a bad name. i have fbss and have been on air for over a year with my xb and put 20000 miles on my suspension without having the first problem.

and common sense tells you if the left and right side bags are connected then the air is giong to flow from side to side no matter what you may think. (by the way this is my first rodeo ethier)

RTon20s

Very excellent posts from Spider and Lance. Scion1616 as well.

I won't go into some long diatribe here. Instead I'll make one simple point, and leave it at that.

You can do things right, or you can take short cuts. It is your choice.

scion1616

smartest thing i have heard on here yet.

sciondrgn

My s10 ran on 4 SMC valves FB only / Nitrogen with Air Back up and Fully Copper Ran hardlined And I never had an issue with driving even under hard conering.

With a Good Combination of Shocks and Struts you will notice a huge difference. We mounted two rear shocks in frame of the s10 front and rear and it rode very smooth and handled great and I could still lay the frame out and drag the blocks off of it

If your going out and AutoXing your xb with air ride then more power to you but I bet most if not everyone ive met with air ride doesnt drive there vehicle like that..

Here is the basic statement

With a 4 Valve setup there is transfer of air from side to side which will lower handling abilities.. True!

With an 8 valve setup there is no xfer of air which aids in better handling. True!

As far as taking shortcuts becuase you want to use 4 valves versus 8..

Look at majority of the old school hot rods on air. Alot of them Ive seen use 4 valves or even 2 2way valves, some manual some electric. and I know several people around town that uses 4 without a problem.

Besides go look at any place who sells air ride kits.. They Sell F,B and F,B,S,S Kits.

So the statement that using 4 is not the correct way to do air ride is simply your opinion and mindset and although I respect your opinions, the way you want to run air ride may not be the way others want to run theres and a comment like that is unnessacary.

scion1616

i never disagree that u can run front to back just fine. but i know that fbss will not hurt your car or truck because that is all i have had with no problems.

sciondrgn

And I never said you disagreed.

But you did agree with RT on his statement that 4 valves is incorrect way to do things which that statement alone is misleading to others who may want air ride.

Ive had both 4 valve setups and 8 valve setups with no problems..

but the scion being as fragile as it is compared to other cars Im starting to See the doors come out of alignment with running S2S. Now most everyday its just get in and drive and I only use S2S on occasion but the setup Im running is extremly fast for an xb and its causing issues with the body as well as the doors.

I plan on putting some Speed Reducers on my Dump valvees to slow it down in order to minimize the stress when I do S2S.


Back top my topic I was wanting to know if anyone running 8 valves and uses S2S has noticed any body flex or mis alignment because of it.

The issue on topic was never about Air Xfer until RT brought it up

RTon20s

I am going to play nice and refrain from making comments about the fact that you are an S-10 owner.

Can you tell me though what the suspension design was on your S-10? I don't mean to be rude or anything, but that would tell me a lot about what you really know about suspension.

And to be honest, the fact that you used "copper hard line" does not help your cause. Anyone who knows anything about materials, or pneumatic suspension can tell you not to use copper hard line. Stainless steel hard line is fine, but not copper. Copper work hardens and will fail over time. I would sooner run plastic DOT "synflex" than switch to copper just to be "hardlined."

And yes, you are right, you will find a lot of hot rods running "2 way" (FB) suspension set ups. You will also find that these cars aren't really driven. And of course you will find suppliers selling both FB and FBSS kits. Why? Because for the most part, buyers are cheap! Especially tightwad, "I can do it for less" mini truckers.

If you want to hear about the '48 Chevy my brother just got into the custom shop he works at let me know. The original bag job was done by a "Hot Rod Shop" using all Air Ride Technology parts. The whole car has to be redone because of how horrible the install was!

Like I said before, it all boils down to a quality installation.

sciondrgn

I am going to play nice and refrain from making comments about the fact that you are an S-10 owner.

stfu I liked my s10


Can you tell me though what the suspension design was on your S-10? I don't mean to be rude or anything, but that would tell me a lot about what you really know about suspension.

I used a cantelever / relo shocks front and back / tank/compressor mounted under bed / nitrogen in truck bed / two switch set up / 4 smc valves 1/2 in hard lined all around / Firestone Bags

And to be honest, the fact that you used "copper hard line" does not help your cause. Anyone who knows anything about materials, or pneumatic suspension can tell you not to use copper hard line. Stainless steel hard line is fine, but not copper. Copper work hardens and will fail over time. I would sooner run plastic DOT "synflex" than switch to copper just to be "hardlined."

Agains Boils down to install.. I didnt install the hard line. I later changed it out to Flex tubing when I took the nitrogen off. Its easier to work with and alot less hassle

And yes, you are right, you will find a lot of hot rods running "2 way" (FB) suspension set ups. You will also find that these cars aren't really driven. And of course you will find suppliers selling both FB and FBSS kits. Why? Because for the most part, buyers are cheap! Especially tightwad, "I can do it for less" mini truckers.

I know alot of that do drive every week. But thats a mute point.. If its ok for them then its ok for us. Just you saying its the Cheap way out is what im getting at. Its not the cheap way out its a matter of prefrence

If you want to hear about the '48 Chevy my brother just got into the custom shop he works at let me know. The original bag job was done by a "Hot Rod Shop" using all Air Ride Technology parts. The whole car has to be redone because of how horrible the install was!

Sorry he went through that. Sadly Alot of people dont know what there doing when it comes to air ride.

Like I said before, it all boils down to a quality installation.

No one is discussing installation.. We are talking about 4 valves versus 8.. Installed properly both set ups will give you a good reliable ride. You said 4 valves is a "cheap way out" and your changing the subject to quality of install..

We already know the difference between running 4 or 8 valves and regardless of which way the person wants to run it one is not a cheap way of doing things its just a matter of preference.

Basically what your saying about the install contradicts what you said about taking the cheap way out.. As long as its done right 4 of 8 valves.

end of story.[/b]

wombat

I am just discussing this subject, because all I hear on this board and thread is F/B is horrible and should never be done on a daily driven xB. Well, thats an opinion and its not reliable information for people/noobs coming to threads searching for air bag information.

The point I'm trying to make is that F/B is doable and safe in an xB under "typical" driving conditions, as well as "spirited" driving. F/B/S/S is better but is not MANDATORY. You can go other ways.
For someone wanting to slam their xB 4 valves is fine. For an easy system to bleed and problem solve, 4 valves is fine. For daily driving 4 valves are fine. Thats all.

As for struts and forces applied to them I thought I explained myself enough. Oh well.
I give up. My opinion has been heard.

If I want to go play in the twisties Ill go get a car thats made for it. Not an xB.

sciondrgn

AMEN!

RTon20s

It really isn't the "end of story" just because you say so. 2 Way, F/B, or 4 valve set up (however you would like to refer to it) is nothing less than a cut corner. Will it work? Sure. Is it the right way to do things? No.

And I'll be honest. The very first time I bagged the front of my Dakota I only ran two valves for the front end. And the day after I finished I drove the thing from California to Iowa hauling a U-Haul trailer. And you know what? It didn't fail. I never lost control and drove off a cliff.

Would I do it again? Nope, never. Why did I do it then? I needed to cut some corners. Time was short, as was money. Beyond that, my town was dry. I couldn't have gotten two more valves if I wanted to. I took short cuts then, and I'll never do it on a suspension install again. Some people don't care. Especially on other people's vehicles.

And I never did change my subject. There is really only one reason not to run a full 4 path system (8 valves). That reason is being cheap. Performance is greatly decreased, regardless of the "2 PSI" change someone mentioned in this thread. The fact that pneumatic suspension is dynamic only compounds the issue of weight transfer. And a good installer will ALWAYS discuss this with their client. So all of the points flow together seamlessly. It is all one in the same... cutting corners.

On the other two issues...

The '48 Chevy was not my brother's car. It is some local guy who had his air suspension installed at a "hot rod shop." My brother works at a custom shop and they are working out a plan to fix the previous installation.

The last issue being my question about your S-10 suspension. The one question I have left is really more a matter of clarification. You called your suspension "cantilever." Did you truly have a cantilever suspension design? If so what type of location system (link) did you use? Or was what you had the more typical 2 link? With the bags mounted on the trailing arms for additional leverage and more lift?

onelowbb

you would think that after all the post on s10forum telling the diffrence between "cantilever" and just a lever set up thay would use the right names for there set up like on my body droped dime i had a triagulated 4 link with the bags on the lower bars and that is a type of lever setup

sciondrgn

Bags Were mounted behind the wheels on the inside of the frame, connecting bars when lifted by the bags would push up from the axle lifting the frame



And Oneloww I wouldnt know about the s10forum I never joined

onelowbb

so did you have a 6 link and sorry i assomed that you would have only becuse you are on here i thought you may have been on an s10 sight as well

sciondrgn

naw i visited the forum once or twice but never signed up.. I didnt have the s10 very long. I got bored with it rather quickly.

hamads

i got 8 valves and i never will go back to 4 valves. i know its a little more money and work but if you ever gotta haul around all your friends and some heavy peeps decide to sit on one side, you can always adjust your psi to compensate ur load. i hardly go side to side too though

sciondrgn

Thanks for the input hamads

RTon20s

Maybe I am just slow... but I am still not sure what your rear suspension design was.

Did you have one trailing arm on each side that attached to your stock front leaf spring hanger? And the bags were mounted on that?

If so, that is called a 2 link and is probably one of the WORST suspension "designs" ever conceived by hack job "customizers." No offense to you or your truck.

crayonBOX

i read alot of this thread, and then got lost in some bickering ( i think; no pointing fingers though, good points all around)

back to the original question, and then ill follow up with everyone else:

i run an easystreet all around:
8 valve
10switch/4 switch (interchangable)
viair 380c w/a 5gal.
and synflex hosing (1/2", 3/8" valves)

i park my car side to side occasionaly, and have done so at shows, infact i've 'danced' my car fb/s/s at shows w/ luckily no problem.

i agree w/brianxb, ive noticed a difference in how the doors close when lifted/dropped/on angle. other than that though, no real issues ive noticed.

maybe the dampening of the 9way struts up front make me feel like im bouncing when i slow/decelerate like a big rig (similar air ride reaction i guess) i have them set at the least dampening right now, it allows for a smooth up and down.

other topics hit on:
side to side air transfer: ive noticed, (i run dual needle gauges) with my 8 valve setup, on a corner, psi may raise in a side by 10psi or more (freeway onramps) if youdidnt have a "block" between the bags, the air would transfer, maybe not enough to cause issue, but imagine (for those who have side to side) on an onramp curving to the right, dumping air from the driver's side, (improper banking)
again, if you're used to it, no problem.

someone said something to the effect of, "having the valves would serve as a block so no air would transfer" - not true. if you have enough load in one side, the air will transfter back to the tank (if the bag pressure overcomes the tank pressure) and that side will go lower. All valves have a tendancy to leak a little.

sciondrgn - hit me up with that nitrogen information, i might endeavor to do some high psi work (maybe not nitrogen high, but ill pm you)

one thing's for sure, it's better to have 8 valves and not use em, than have 4 and want to do an adjustment that you cant unless you had 8.

i made a 4 switch box that controls independent per wheel, and it's semi useful. but my daily switches are front/rear/all.

im open to q's if need b.

~tesh

www.fotki.com/scionnighthd
www.fotki.com/jugnu03
www.fotki.com/crayonboxin

sciondrgn

Its a reverse Cantilever essentialy a reverse 4 link with a cantilever lifting for the frame. it was all custom built.

No offense RT but jus quit. seriously. Every post you make is hating on someone else's way of doing things and just about every other post you keep reminding us how long youve been dealing with air suspension.. I personally dont care. Ive made my points, im through bickering with someone who has to think there right all the time .