NYCxB

Been here a long while, just about month after I got my xB.

Noticed at the top of the board their are 3 models. None of which resemble what Scion was once about. While I wasn't a fan of the xA, it was quirky enough to be out of any category, obviously the xB was unable to be truly categorized, but now you have a smart car/ fiat, a slow version of the new fr-s and a pontiac solstice/ saturn sky replacement.

Not meaning to be harsh, but why bother having this nameplate for 3 vehicles that really stand for nothing, and don't move the needle of unexpected.

Maybe it is time to shutter the nameplate and just add toyota to these models and call it a day.

Reactor

The new tC is not bad. But yeah...

CMJAnew

Which one is the Pontiac Solstice / Saturn Sky replacement?

criminaltc

Really dude? The FRS. If you know what a Solstice and Sky look like, then you'd know he's referring to the FRS. Clearly the tC and iQ don't fit the bill. Wow.

^^^And yeah, it's called change big guy, Scion is moving in a different direction. They are constantly bringing in new talent and getting rid of old. Three models have already been here and already gone and went in 8 years. It's a funky line-up but who cares, they still have the tC. That's all that matters. Scion is tC and xB. They shouldn't have gotten rid of the xB but they did for clearly thought out reasons. They don't pick ideas out of hats up in corporate, these are things that projections show will work for ideas they have.

TurboMonkey36

I'd say the FR-S is closer to an S2000 or RX-8 than a Solstice or Sky, or even yet, a 240sx. The FR-S is what Scion is about. Simple affordable and the style, can't miss that. I think the iQ is closer to a wider better looking xA, more room for tall/big people and luggage. The tC is like a gen 1 tC and gen 2 xB fused together lol, look at the styling and 1 tone interior with a bit more power and some torque and available 6 speed. I think there are more imporvements than anything and also think Toyota wise to take it to Subaru for engineering the FR-S. It looks like (my point of view) Ford is raising the bar and GM has put Toyota in a head to head world sales challenge, so Toyota had to step up if they want to be on top again.

I'm excited about the FR-S and am really liking the attention it's had so far.

Jon

Had Scion continued doing what they were doing, the brand would have probably died. xA and xD sales were never great. The xB1 defined the brand and the image it created was totally undermined by the xB2. Why they didn't bring over the current bB I don't know. The tC2 just isn't enough of an improvement over the tC1. It's the same kind of "refresh" that happens to the Camry every 2 years.

With the FR-S, at least now there's a respectable sports car in the line up. I never understood why they'd fund drift teams converting tCs to RWD but just wouldn't make a RWD car to begin with.

The iQ is now the quirky car. Not that Smart sales are so high that Toyota needs a market share. It seems they brought it over just for the hell of it, which I think is cool since not a lot of people go looking to buy a car that small.

Reactor

Not sure about all aspects of it but one of the main ones is collision safety. That was also one of the main reasons xB1 had such short run in the US.

CMJAnew

Really Dude? The Solstice and Skye are roadsters. I didn't realize the FR-S's top was removable. My Bad.

Mouse

^^ I've gotta agree with you on a lot of that... Even though I'm more of a fan of the 1st gen tC (not b/c that's what I currently have..just my own honest opinion.)
Definitely agreed with the first part there.... the 2nd gen tC design just didn't seem like quite enough of a step forward to maintain forward momentum in the market. Especially since they stayed with the 1st gen tC platform/design for as long as they did, which was more than double the average lifecycle in the auto industry.
agreed with your other points made too.

TurboMonkey36

Don't think Toyota would allow any decision just for the hell of it lol, they made the xA first, just that the iQ is super side and tall plus the egg shape. I think the tC 2 and tC 1 are quite different, sure it uses the same plastform, but it's a totally different engine. It'll cost you close to what matters nearly double to buy a tC2 engine brand new over a tC1 just becuase of the dual VVt-i setup. It also achieves slightly higher mpgs both ends for either manual or auto. It is heavier, but feels more sport like and the way you sit in the cockpit helps as with the new gauges and dash. After saying all that, I still wouldn't get one lol. Also prefer the gen 1 over gen 2.

I'd say funding the drift team is not for me to say why or how, but I think it may be due to marketing and that it's much cheaper than engineering a new car that isn't projected to sell so great. I read the media stories on why the FR-S was created due to Toyoda versus board of Toyota (the way I interpreted it) saying he wanted at least one RWD sports car in the line, and the board said okay, they'll allow one, but no high powered models because they already have Lexus and the LFA.

I read somewheres about the bB and crash safety ratings. I understand I guess because our speeds are higher in the US versus Japan and the older and newer generations are concerned more with safety now than previous and something about interior room. If it''s not sporty, small cars don't last long or are upsized in the US. Mini, Beetle, xA-xD-iQ, rx-7-rx-8 applies to both lol.

Jon

The iQ is a lot smaller than the xA. Almost to the point of being a 2 seater. The rear hatch space is non-existent with the seats up. The two cars are not the same, the iQ did not evolve from the xA.

The 2AR-FE is very similar to the 2AZ-FE. I wouldn't claim a total redesign from scratch. Dual VVT-i is cool, but nothing monumental. If they had put VVTL-i on it then there would be something to talk about. It's like my analogy about the Camry, just minor improvements were made.

The interior was improved, but I would have liked that same effort put into other things like aesthetics and performance. Even though the 1G S/C was pretty bad, here was a perfect opportunity to rectify that but they chose not to. 240-250hp with a S/C would have been great.

Yeah but they were marketing a car doing something it cannot do off the showroom floor. They didn't even use the stock engines until what last year?

That goes back to my other point. If small cars don't last long, why bother bringing the iQ over? It definitely wasn't because they expected a huge amount of revenue. It's not for mpg either. A TDI Jetta will do 6mpg better on the highway and it has 4 doors and a trunk.

Tomas

Very doubtful...

The xB Classic had a short run because Scion's original promise was for models to have a three year run then move on. (They also re-built the factory that built the xA/xB to building a current JDM vehicle, moving bB production to a Daihatsu factory.)

The rest of the world got the new bB/Materia/COO/Dex, and in response to US buyers saying the wanted a larger, heavier, more powerful replacement, we got a Corolla Rumion station wagon instead of the World City car, the bB Urban Utility Vehicle.



The current bB/Materia/COO/Dex has front and side airbags, anti-incursion bracing in doors, roof braced to withstand rollovers, front and rear crush zones, etc. It is a "world car" already available in either left or right hand drive, and would need only minor changes to meet US requirements. It is easily as stout as - or stouter than - the Scion iQ...

It is also a much safer vehicle than the original xB Classic (which itself is actually not bad at all on safety).

Reactor

I didn't know that QNC bB has side airbags. But not having it on Gen1 xB was a part of the issue that put that car to rest.
3 year model run theory: what about xA or tC then?

Tomas

Yeah, the current one has the full set of airbags...



The xA (Ist) and xB (bB) were both discontinued at the same time, end of 2006, out of the same factory, replaced by the new model of each (the xD is the new Ist) in all markets EXCEPT the US where we got the Corolla Rumion (xB2), instead.

The tC was where Scion broke their promises for the second time*, and at the end of 2007 when it was time to discontinue the tC, it was selling so well that they extended it.

Tom


* First time was when the called the Corolla Rumion "xB" when they slipped us a ringer. The promise was originally not to carry models past three years AND not to re-use model names for the new models. The Ist was called the xA, the new Ist was called the xD. HOWEVER, the "xB" name had become so tied to the "Scion" name, and was so iconic and representative of the brand that they decided to break that promise and call the new soccer mom wagon "xB" to try to pick up some of that popularity and recognition. Didn't work, people weren't fooled.

NYCxB

Gotta disagree there "guy." The direction is design and marketing correction and attempting to recapture the aging demo they originally grabbed.

The average Scion buyer was originally targeted at 25-34, but the average buyer turned out to be 39 (2007) which was still very good and the lowest in the industry for a brand (but it had very little products for sale).

Scion sales nose dived with the introduction of the xB2 and tC sales have plummeted. tC sales have gone from a high of 79K units in 2006 to a low of 15K units sold in 2010.

Even with the xB2 discontinued, it sold more than the tC with over 20K units vs. 15K units sold in 2010.

Across the board this is a dying nameplate as it has gone from selling over 170K units (all nameplates -2006) to under 40K units.

Their first misstep was crowdsourcing of the xB2. Huge mistake as the xB became the flagship of the brand name Scion, not the tC, which other auto companies could easily duplicate (cheap racer).

So, from a marketing standpoint, they are left with no choice but to chase their old demo, hoping they will buy an FR-S at $26K+ as the tC at best is now an also ran to this latest model. So is Scion a speed brand? A subcompact brand? What does the brand stand for?

End of the day, Toyota will not be able to achieve what they did originally with Scion and it has become a useless nameplate.

GM has shed, the last 12 years, Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Hummer, Saturn, etc. Chrysler has lost Plymouth
Ford has dropped Mercury, sold Jaguar, Land Rover, Aston Martin & Volvo.

So, in my experienced opinion, Scion no longer has a branding story nor soul that can explain its existence.

Tomas

Sadly I think your conclusion is in many ways correct, NYCxB.

The original guys with the "Scion Vision" were replaced by ordinary "Toyota Folk" at HQ, and they either lost the vision, or more likely never had it.

The only way Scion can survive as a viable marque is for Toyota to let it get back to the roots it started from instead of just the cheap side of Toyota.

NYCxB

The FR-S looks good, but if by sharing the vehicle with its true developer (Subaru), is the new definition of Scion, then you are right.(Subaru, main developer of this vehicle is selling the same thing here as the BRZ). This new model falls into the $25-35K range of consideration. Not affordable when you consider the other model considerations.

That range includes the Mustang, Camaro, Audi A3, A4, Lexus IS 350, etc.

No question they will sell a few of these, but I don't expect the FR-S to redefine Scion, just create more confusion of what Scion is.

Scion has lost its market to Hyundai, Kia, VW, etc.

As for GM vs. Toyota, there is more politics there as the Obama administration ensured that GM won the pr and political by Obama's office investigating the Prius into negative PR, add in the factory closures due to the Tsumani and the fact that Toyota is still head to head with GM, means they are a strong company. GM on the other hand just delayed their further falling apart with tax payer assistance and a cloud of nonsense from Obama & co.

Not going to assess all companies, but FIAT's ownership (practically free thanks to you and me, the US taxpayer) of Chrysler, will be the biggest challenger to Toyota, Ford, etc. than GM. GM will be back in bankruptcy in the next 4 years as they never addressed the reason they were cash strapped.

NYCxB

The Last Pontiac...

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/05/au...tice.html?_r=1

CMJAnew

My Double Bad-Bad

TurboMonkey36

Safety is one of the reasons the xB 1 had a short run. Toyota wouldn't cut sales to keep their 3 year promise, they would keep selling if anything was selling greatly as Tomas states.

The current brand the iQ represents the smaller car while FR-S represents the sporty car (that should've been done the first time), and the tC now represents a cool fwd with style (xB 2) in my eyes. Don't think they killed what they represented, they are in a business and I think they are still trying to appeal to young buyers wanting to be different and adding modifications to their vehicles in hoping that those mods are of Scion origination. To me, Scion is the answer to appealing or regaining younger buyers for Toyota, as one of the reasons why cars like the Supra, MR2, and Celica have died. They know that younger generation in the US will appeal to being different (want2besquare or something ads), so it's not about oh sport compact, RWD, or anything of that nature. Scion was just an idea which scope is made by many minds and passed or cleared by fewer minds (Toyoda/Board). The FR-S I agree, not exactly new, but an old, reminisce of what was once had and so said to want back from Toyota. Ferrari was once a sports car, but now you can see for yourself they are widing their scope as well. Still sports car, but different levels of Ferrari if you know what I mean. I'm sure there is love when making every Scion, but don't forget, they are trying to expand and appeal.

On GM, they are doing well, don't care if they had it easy or not. Their flagship is the Corvette period. Ford's is the Mustang. Do they sell the most? No, but they are sure badass vehicles just like the tC was to Scion and was the flagship car until now maybe the FR-S.

(I see the FR-S standing out in the Scion community and that's probably what Scion wants, to bring back their customers with something that stands out)

I think the Solstice is influenced by the S2000 and Miata, hence turbo and non turbo models. I think it's a good car though.