Okay, i come again with another issue...

I lowered my ride back in the summer of 09 with the Eibach Sportline kit and kept my stock shocks (looks killer). Of course my alignment was off in the front and rear. My tire shop corrected the front and I had them install the Ingalls shim kit for the 08 xB to bring the rear back into spec.

At the same time I bought new Fuzion ZRIs 235/35/R19 to put on my TRD 19" wheels. After 5000 miles, i went to have the tires rotated and the tire shop told me that the rear wheels were "chopped" on the inside 6" of the tread. I felt them myself and they had a wavy feel to them.

They put it back on the alignment rack for me and verified that the rear was still in spec.

Camber: L -1.6 R -1.5 (-1.9 to -0.9 range)
Toe: L 0.17 R 0.19 (-0.04 to 0.2)
Cross Toe: 0.36 (-.07 to 0.4)

I asked them what was going on and they said that the springs in lowering kits are much stiffer and with a light rear end, my tires are bouncing on the road when I go over bumps (the front tires are wearing fine). They said wear like that happens when the shocks are going bad and my uni-directional tread is more susceptible to that kind of wear. I asked them if they thought that was what was causing the wear and they said they weren't sure. They advised me to not rotate the tires because I would feel it in the steering wheel and advised me to keep wearing them down.

I've searched around on here and have only seen one or two posts of people saying that they kept stock shocks with the Eibach Sportlines. i tried to call Eibach by the way to ask them what they thought and I got an answering machine when transferred to their R&D department.

Ideas? I don't want to need 2 new tires every 10K when I paid to have the shim kit installed.

 

I had Sprints which are lower than the Eibachs and now the sportlines both coupled with the stock dampers and I have had no alignment issues requiring shims. I am running Falken ZE912's on 18" Falken wheels. You could have blown rear dampers... It wouldnt be outrageous to replace the factory ones with the TRD's and see if it helps correct the problem, maybe do all four corners? What brand of tire are you running, could just be crappy compound coupled with bad roads and worn dampers. How many miles on the factory stuff? Okay re-read OP, no offense, please don't take this the wrong way but Fuzion tires aren't the best tire brand and could be contributing to the problem.

FWIW - The bottom line, we're taking chances by running factory dampers with aftermarket springs because the range of travel and damping sweet spot on the factory damper is in a place outside the operating range of the spring we're using which will cause premature failure of the valving and seals. If the OEM struts are high mileage and have been used with the Eibachs, they are probably bad now.

 

How is this possible when lowering drastically changes the geometry of the car. Due to the single rear axle, lowering causes any negative chamber to become negative toe which usually pushes it out of spec.

Yeah that's where I'm headed.

How do you know this? They were rated pretty high on Tire Rack

I have 42k on my xB total and 20K have been since I lowered it.

 

Not sure where I have it right now but i'll look for my last print out from when I put the Eibachs on. I was within spec without adding shims or camber bolts. the Sportlines albeit low, are not nearly as aggressive as the Sprints were. The Sprints should have pushed me into a bad place but for some reason didn't. Then again, the guy I go to is a Honda tuner also and does a lot of the Scions in the area including all of the cars on air for the most part and knows what is acceptable.

I did a lot of forum hopping when I was looking for tires and the Fuzion's fell into the Nexxen and Sunny category from what I read. I'm in no way saying they suck, just saying they aren't as proven as say Khumo or Federal. That could, along with possible worn dampers be causing your headache. A different tread compound might have been more forgiving.

Definitely post up what you find out on your end because I plan on running the Eibachs from here on out and you've had them on a lot longer so it will be interesting to see how they hold up on your xb.

 

Some tires don't work well with certain setups. Try a different tire and see what happens. I have seen tire on factory setups cause cupping issues. Fusions are not the greatest tires out there and are known to cup. But with a heavy drop and factory struts, I can guarantee you that the struts aren't cushioning the ride cause excessive bounce in the wheels.

 

I have been lowered for a little over 3 years now and have never gotten a wheel alignment. I also have friends with Sprint Springs and Tein S-Techs and no wheel alignment's and have not had any tire wear problems.

 

Figures, I paid for the shim kit and its in spec and I am getting tire wear. This type of thing always happens to me. What kind of tires/shocks should I look to get?

 

Try rolling without the shim kit, maybe they aligned it "out" of spec? Some alignment shops actually make the alignment worse. Not saying that this is the solution, just a speculation.

 

Yeah this is a good thought except I got the shim kit installed about a year after the lowering cause I burned through 4 toyo tires on the rear. I was hoping the shim kit would solve my issue but as you can see from this thread, it didn't.

 

Im on 18x8.5 wheels with Falken Ziex ZE912's size 215-45-18 with a slight stretch and i love them! Im on stock shocks for the past 3 years and some months and when the day comes to change them out im gonna go with TRD'S.

 

FWIW... I am on sportlines with stock strut/shock combo for a yr now and I travel roughly 300 miles a week for work...I never bothered with the ingalls camber kit or shims, I have had both 17" and 18" rims on the car...I am currently on my steelies for the winter...did my alignment about 3 months after lowering the car...got it done at the dealer...
I take it every 5k miles to them for an oil change...I have not had an alignment or tire issues brought to my attention....all I can say sometimes spending the extra money on the extra items are not even worth it.... when I aligned the car 3 months after it was dropped to my surprise it was not too outta spec in the 1st place.....

I really hope you find a solution to this man that sucks..oh and I have been on Fuzion tires and I hate them!!!!


Edit:

Tire cupping can also be caused by a bad wheel, wheel bearing, or improperly mounted hub rings..or even the missing of hub rings....not necessarily suspension...just saying

 

There you have it... ^^^ Pretty much the same thing from everyone.

I don't buy the concept of needing the shim kit after seeing so many Gen 1's and Gen 2's on deep drops without them and still coming within factory spec...

That was an add on sale, guaranteed. I think some different tires and maybe just new rear shocks would probably take care of this issue along with removing the shims and maybe finding a different alignment shop.

It's just my opinion, take it for what it's worth. Hope you get it figured out because replacing 19" tires is expensive and it sucks dealing with quirky little issues like this constantly.

 

Well, one of my first mods to my 2008 was Eibach Prokit springs (much milder than Sportline). I had a alignment the following day and these were the results:

LF camber 0.0 degree (spec -.9 to +.6) RF camber -.4 degree
LF toe -.09 degree (spec -.09 to +.09) RF toe -.07 degree

LR camber -1.4 degree (spec -1.9 to -.9) RR camber -1.7 degree
LR toe .38 degree (spec 0.0 to .33) RR toe .13 degree

Cross camber 0.3 degree (spec -.8 to +.8 )
Total toe .51 degree (spec 0.00 to 0.67)

So, if you have a lower drop than mine (Eibach Prokit), you almost certainly have a toe problem which'll accelerate your front tire wear. You probably are also borderline at best on your front camber, as well as out of camber for the rears. Basically, the idea is that an alignment is a whole lot cheaper than replacing the tires. Between having the toe out and the camber out, it's probably worse to have the toe out, it accelerates edge wear.

 

I guess in my mind when it comes down to the brass tacks of what we're discussing, we all have to make a certain concession mentally when we choose to lower a car. Tires will wear abnormally regardless of alignment because of the altered geometry. Without completely redesigning the suspension to lower the geometry naturally, we'll always be dealing with trade off. Everyone has a thresh hold of what is acceptable, for me wear isn't as big of a deal because I barely drive this car, if it was a daily, my attitude would be different. I probably wouldn't be on Sportlines either...

As far as alignment, I do believe in it and do it every time I change something, I've gone from stock to Sprint to Air to stock to Eibach in the short life of this car. I have gotten alignments every time, tires are holding up fine. I attribute that as much to the type of tire I chose more so than the alignments. I like the way directional tires look, but haven't had good luck with them regarding wear in the past. That's why I went with the 912's over the other styles that Falken produces or Khumo which is another reasonably priced brand that makes nice tires.

Hope the OP checks back in when he figures out what the deal is because I'm very curious about the cause.

 

This is really frustrating me because after I dropped mine, I got the alignment checked at the dealership and then at an independent tire shop. Both confirmed that my rear toe and chamber were out of spec:

Toe: L 0.31 R0.38 (-.04 to .2)
Cross Camber: 0.7 (-0.5 to 0.5)
Total Toe: 0.69 (-0.07 to 0.40)

Subsequently, my old Toyo tires got chopped so bad on the inside corners that I started seeing the belts after only 5000K. Both places blamed the out of spec toe. I asked the dealership and they wanted to put my car on a collision rack and bend my rear axle to put it in spec. I called Scion of America and talked to their R&D about it and they recommended the shim kit. I read around on this forum and saw others talking about the shim kit. So I bought the kit and took it to the tire shop for installation. Now, after new Fuzion tires and 5000K my rear wheels are still chopping. I hear you on the shocks and I will most likely do that but why have others A.) lowered and still been inspec B.) been able to roll on stock shocks with no issues

 

The only easy way out is not an easy one: return to stock height. *Cue horror music

 

Nice...have you been talking to my wife?

 

This is not cupping, its chopping. The inside corner is getting wavy. Every website I have looked at says tire chopping is due to worn suspension (ie shocks operating outside of their design parameters). I wish I could remember where I read keeping stock shocks with the Sportlines was okay. But now that I think about it, the rear drop is like 2.1 inches so to expect the shocks to function normally when that compressed seems like a stretch.

For everyone that has said they either didn't need any alignment or their shocks were okay with the Sportlines, I would just say count yourself lucky because this really sucks.

 

I agree entirely. Any serious drop demands appropriate shock absorbers. That was one of the attractions to me for my mild drop, I could keep my barely used OE shocks, though even so, it isn't clear what life I can expect. I installed Prokit springs on my Eclipse as well, but first talked to KYB to make sure the fairly new shocks would be OK.

 

Thanks for the correction!
Yeah man this really sucks man I feel for you and can only imagine your frustration.... Hey Lemme ask you this you are on sportlines with 19" wheels correct? how much does each wheel weigh and how much weight is back there on a daily basis?

I mean I am no suspension guru but just wondering if the weight of the 19"s along with whatever weight you have back there ( i.e. System, etc) can be playing a factor as to why all your specs are in line but you still having these drastic wear issues... I mean think about it like this, have you ever seen those plastic picnic tables that begin to buckle with all the weight on it... I think the rear of a car would do the same no? (except for being plastic lol)

Kinda start looking like this after a while and although your specs are in line your rear with weight of the body,wheels on the hub assembly and cargo items it would begin to look like this:

/-----\

just trying to brainstorm and come to a reasonable explanation... I am baffled man I have put 17k on my sportlines and put my stock rubber through two full winters and I am still doing ok....