Skyraider

I realize I'm a newb to the xB but something concerns me. It seems that alot of money is thrown at all types of mods which is part of the allure of our cars. I won't ever say a mod is worth it or not. (I'm heavy into home audio and spent money on dubious upgrades for full disclosure)

Anyway, I've done many searches here on various topics and I find it surprising that many folks are willing to throw dollars at springs, coil overs, sway bars and the like without optimizing the rotating pieces of the suspension before adding mods.

We have plain old rubber bushings in the front and rear suspension which flex and keep most people safe on the road. I've learned over the past three decades that if one would mod/upgrade the OEM rubbers (Not condoms) on the suspension, the addition of all of the above mentioned mods would be of perhaps limited improvement. I may be wrong on this point, but there has to be a baseline of all suspension components moving in the right direction at the right time.

My other play car, a 1976 Triumph TR6 has all types of mods availalable for it. I choose not to do them until I had all suspension pieces moving on Delrin bushings to remove all/most flex. Then the addition of springs and doodads made sense.

I think an upgrade path needs to be thought out to save money and put that money where it will do the best good.

Gordon

pyroman131

The primary reason for the sway bars is not for stiffening the body from flex: the reason they are installed is to virtually eliminate body roll. The fringe benefit is receiving a stiffer body.

If you would like to attempt this bushings mod (of which I have no experience with), I'd like to see what you can come up with. Since you've been working in cars and have your other project car, you might want to consider getting specs of the bushings for the xB, run by a junkyard, and investigate and see what you can come up with.

azfabguy

Well if they made a delrin bushing set i would buy it. But i don't have the time to stand in front of the lathe to make them. Companies such as prothane and energy suspension don't make parts for the xb2

Skyraider

Pyro sparked a bit of "why not" and have been thinking about making my own bushings. I can see why none of the biggies make much for the xB.

I don't want to jack the thread so I may start another documenting my pursuit of delrin/nylatron bushings.

Gordon

azfabguy

I would be interested in a set

pyroman131

^ I'm always intrigued by new ideas to try, especially because I have no experience messing with bushings. I'd like to see what you can come up with in the future.

azfabguy

We use to make delrin bushings for custom chevy truck control arms but now the local offroad shop has them for less that we could make them for. So we modified our design to use the other bushings

crix098

Hi, first post here. That's an interesting point, Skyraider. I'm new to car modifications so I'm not actually sure what the impact of changing out the bushings for harder material would be. You seem to imply that this change would be good for performance yet bad for safety? Well, I'll keep an eye out for any work or other thoughts you have on this.

Back on topic...

Yeah, the front hotchkis sway bar looks like a pita to install but it could be a fun learning experience. Though I would think that my Box would gain the most by adding the rear sway and front strut tower brace.

The 2nd gen TRD bar is attractive because of those ball joint connections. Maybe its just a bunch of TRD marketing, but their claims that the ball joints allow for proper camber and wheel motion during turning strikes a chord in my MechE insides. I can believe that allowing a couple degrees rotation would be important.

So, I haven't made my mind which way to go yet, but I've been trying to do some more aggressive turning lately so I'll have a better before&after sense.

crix098

Follow up to my own post because I can't decide between the TRD and the Hotchskis. Do you guys think the TRD ball linkages are important?

Here are some images of the differences, TRD in red, Hotchskis with greenish circle showing the different connection approach.

(don't know how to make the pics appear inline without uploading them somewhere)

xseveredveganx

I wouldn't imagine the rear swaybar endlinks would matter that much. TRD stopped producing their first bar and reintroduced it with this model. The other release kept braking at the mount, so it was redesigned.
For the record, I've been running my Hotchkis sways for the past 4 years without a single issue.

crix098

Apparently all I needed was one more good review to convince me to go with the Hotchkis front and rear sway bars. Tirerack actually had them for $260 (which is weird because they are like $320 everywhere else).

ORDERED!

Skyraider

crix I'm not an engineer, but I've always thought that the designers/engineers if they had their way, would want all moving pieces to follow a certain plane with no variations. However, they are forced into substituting a material with a bit of give for the average consumer. Ride quality and removing a precise steering geometry which could get some people into trouble on the twisties are a couple thoughts that come to mind.

I have some very hard bushings in another car which I totally trust since I race and drive it on the street. The ride is very severe but precise. It just comes down to trade off to the individual.

You mention your a Mech E. Perhaps we can exchange ideas either on or off line. I have some ideas that would/could benefit many owners here if I had a real pro to shoot holes in my ideas.

Gordon

pyroman131

That's a sweet deal! I want to wait 'til I get paid again to order them!

Is that the best price you have found for those?

crix098

Yup, by far. I wonder if it's a mistake. At $260 they are only, I forget, about $30 more than the TRD rear (only) sway bar. Plus these are hollow tube, lighter, stronger, and you get a front sway bar as well. Also, I'm thinking people are less likely to mess with your car when there's no flashy red powder coated parts showing.

crix098

Yeah, those bushing sounds a little rough for a daily car.

I'm not an automotive engineer but I would be happy to help you think about some ideas. PM me. Though if there is a place for it on the forums an open discussion might elicit more input from people with real world car experience, rather than theory / physics. Either way.

crix098

Update:

Received the Hotchkis sway bars (processing by TireRack and standard ups ground shipping is superfast to SoCal apparently), installed rear bar in about an hour cuz I'm a newb, haha. Didn't have a platform to elevate the rear but there's quite a bit of space back there. Not so for the front sway bar.

The performance difference is immediately noticeable! Did some aggressive turns and the car really goes where you point it. I wasn't really sure what body-roll was but now I am quite clear on what it's NOT.

I realized as I was putting the bar on that I will most likely have to uninstall when I install the NF210s. There's a good amount of compression between the shock bolts axis and the portion of the bar that runs under the U-beam. Once I undo the shock bolts to release the stock springs I may not be able to get the sway bar shock mount holes to line up with the shock holes, due to the compressive force I mentioned.

If that's the case and the nuts supporting the bar under the U-beam need to be removed they may need to be replaced because they are nylon lock nuts. I don't want this thing gradually loosening up. Not sure if home depot nylon nuts are appropriate... We'll see what happens.

azfabguy

Ace or true value hardware sells grade 8 hardware

crix098

"grade 8" Good to know.

xseveredveganx

If you don't want to detach the lower bolt, then take off the upper shock nut. It should be easier and it'll do the same thing. Fishing it back into the appropriate hole may be a minor feat, but not too difficult if you have a jack, the car's on jackstands, and you know a little yoga. Put the car on jackstands, place the jack under the axle, position yourself in the wheel well so you can guide the shock, then use you leg to pump the jack. Get everything where you need it to be, and throw the nuts on top.
Should work well!

GDubya

Yes! Whether you go Hotchkis or TRD, you'll be very happy with the reduced roll. Hotchkis claims to be 50% stiffer than OEM front but most of your roll on FWD is from the rear. I'd be curious to know the actual weight difference because the hollow Hotchkis is larger diameter and uses forged ends also. Add lowering springs (TRDs are stiffer but slightly higher) and a strut tower brace to stiffen the front end when traversing bumps and you'll corner like she was on rails.

$260 for the Hotchkis kit looks like the deal at TireRack if their shipping stays under $30 but, interestingly, it shows red vs Hotchkis' anthracite color spec. But you really don't see the bars that much when lowered. Not like everything else is stock, eh...

crix098,
You know the rules: pics or it didn't happen...