mmcwill

I am pricing out 17 in. wheels with 205x40 tires with the TRD springs. and sway bar. I thought about getting the TRD shocks as well, but that's another $500. Does anyone know how the ride would be with the springs and standard shocks with the tires? Would it corner just as well, or would the cornering be improved enough to justify the extra bucks?

Mike

Zefoxe

Basic rule of thumb is, bigger the rim, the rougher the ride. And visa versa for tires (bigger tire = more comfort) But that comes are the cost of handling. Bigger the rim the higher the speed you can reach whereas the small the wheel the quicker you can accelerate. I prefer a 16 inch rim with a decent size sport tire to give best of both worlds. hope that helps...

SeattleGuy

I recently installed Tanabe NF210's which apparently have a comparable spring rate to TRDs. (They do sit a bit lower in the rear though.) Also installed a TRD "sway" bar. As Zefoxe said, the balance between handling and comfort is outstanding with stock 16's. Even pushing as hard as is prudent in "the real world" I can't destabilize the stock shocks or slip the stock tires. For autocrossing I'm sure you'd want larger tires (at some sacrifice in everyday comfort) - not to mention aesthetics which are a matter of personal preference.

Even if you autocross I don't think the TRD struts are going to help much: Courses are too short to require the increased cooling a decent performance shock/insert provides. TRD's don't have adjustable dampening, a key feature in true performance units. I've also heard (but do not KNOW) the damping rates are only slightly higher than stock in any case. As replacements for worn out stock units they might make sense, but I doubt if it's a wise purchase for a new car. A set of autocross tires on spare rims will gain you much more bang for the buck.

Note on the TRD "sway" bar: It is more properly a trailing beam stiffener rather than a true sway bar. While there is such a thing as a true sway bar for non-independent rear suspensions, all the TRD piece does is stiffen the compliance of the trailing beam. True sway bars allow one side of a suspension to "jack" loads to the other side. The TRD bar does not do this. While I did install one I am not certain it really does very much. I suspect most of the undeniable improvement in handling is due to the springs which lower both the center of gravity and center of (suspension) rotation. It would be cool if someone who is upgrading would thoroughly test drive their baby after installing springs but before putting on the sway bar. Would be an enlightening test and possibly a money saver as well.

smokeydog001

SeattleGuy has some valid points. I had TRDs, 15" wheels, stock shocks and a front strut bar on my xA. The whole game radically changed with the addition of the TDR rear sway bar! It greatly improved my handling. The downside was the rough ride of the TRDs. They were fine on the narrow, twistie backroads, but once on a freeway I felt like I was being dribbled down the road! It was one harsh ride. I now have a xD and am enjoying the comfort of the stock springs. However, the day will come I'll make a choice between the Tanabe NF210's and the Tanabe DF210's.

SeattleGuy

Interesting that the rear sway greatly improved handling on your xA. Does anyone else have any experience with aftermarket springs before and after a sway install (on xA's, xB's, or xD's).

Smokey I'm with you on dribbling down the road!

Note on alignment after NF210 install: Having access to a race car shop/tools, I was able to check camber, caster, and toe-in before and after install. Not as precisely as a pro laser, mind you, but close enough. As one would expect after lowering only the camber changed out of the spec range. By carefully reinstalling the front struts, both sides were the same.

Spec:
Frt -0.18° +/- 0.75° -> -0.93 max neg camber
Rr -0.95° +/- 0.5° -> -1.00 max neg camber

Actual before:
frt -0.25
r -1.00

After NF210 install:
Frt -1.25
R -1.75

This is NOT a subtle change for either handling or tire wear purposes. Turn in (as always) feels fabulous with a lot of negative camber and I haven't experienced any disconcerting failure to track straight or sudden oversteer issues. But! Inside tire wear will be pronounced to say the least.

Front camber can be brought back to spec with substitute stut bolts from the dealer but rear camber is not adjustable by factory methods. Folks should keep this in mind (along with various clearance issues) when lowering. There is a hidden cost unless you wish to dismount and remount tires side to side now and again. And, of course, the lower you go, the more negative camber becomes.

Haven't decided whether to pull front camber back to spec

smokeydog001

It IS a tradeoff, but while the stock ride is comfortable, it handles like a stagecoach! I just can't feel the road with my tires. it may be the new electronic steering. I don't know, but a stock Honda Fit handles a lot better.

SeattleGuy

Yeah the electric power steering takes some getting used to. I've come to not mind it so much when pushing things and actually love it for everyday, but must admit steering feel is definitely not BMW caliber (or price)!

I know what you mean about the stagecoach feel (and looks) of the stock xD. I'm very pleased with the NF 210's in both those regards. Also, while it's a little bit stiffer in daily driving I wouldn't characterize the ride as noticeably "harsh." It does hammer outright potholes harder, but not too bad. Suspect you'd probably find the huge payoff to be worth the relatively small trade-off. Not sure that would be the case with DF's though. Substantially stiffer and lower with all that implies. But only you know your tastes/needs.

I do have a couple hours behind the wheel in a Fit Sport. I really liked it but ultimately got the xD cause it has a bit more motor without being a gas hog. I'd say the handling of a conservatively modified xD is roughly comparable to the Fit Sport, but my experience in the Honda is obviously limited. Honda's steering feel right off the lot was better though. Liked the clutch out of first gear better too. But, like with relationships, one must make choices!

mmcwill

Well, since I'm just going for aesthetics anyway, I'll install the TRD lowering springs and keep the shocks as stock with 17in rims and tires to keep the ride from being too harsh.

Thanks for the comments.

SeattleGuy

You're welcome. You probably know this, but when shopping tires try to keep od close to factory tires (25.2") else your speedo/odo will be off. Also watch the offset on wheels. There's some great info on this site. See Zoltiz posts for example.

ChelsDS

Hrm I think the better tire size is 225/45 if you want 17 tires. Thats what I'm aiming to get zoltiz does have some very helpful posts up about tires+wheel questions you might have.

mmcwill

Wheelsnext.com (an excellent site for newbies, such as myself) has matched wheel/tire sets for the xD. They recommend the 215/45 in a 17. As far as using the stock shocks with the TRD springs, the TRD catalog says they can be used with them, so the rates arent' apparently so bad they'd wear the shock out early.

crawlgsx

I don't think that is true on the struts/shocks. I have a 2008 Black xD with nothing else but the struts/shocks done and it was night and day between before and after. I had the car for a week prior to going back to have the struts/shocks upgraded. I did not do springs. Before the upgrade the car had a LOT of body roll and afterwards it was diminished quite a bit.

SeattleGuy

I stand by my statement. The original issue was whether to buy TRD struts in addition to a set of TRD lowering springs. The poster wanted a lower look. It's a reasonable question because if the lowering springs have a lot higher spring rate stock units might provide insufficient dampening. As it turns out the modest increase in spring rate on TRD's and NF210's is managed just fine by stock dampeners. (Even Toyota says their lowering springs will work with stock shocks). The only exception might be if one wants to autocross and probably not even then as I discussed. (Serious racing is different. Real performance dampeners are mandatory. One would not choose TRD's.)

Most of the folks posting on this board have gone this route because they want a lower look and/or improved handling without breaking the bank - often mostly the former. A spring swap achieves both goals by lowering both the center of gravity of the car and the roll center of the suspension. This is how virtually all road racing chassis' are designed. Believe me, my car does not roll at all and handles way better all around simply because of the improved suspension geometry. The trade-offs of lowering are a slightly harder ride and increased inside tire wear depending on how low you go and how stiff the springs are.

However, if a person does not want to lower the car but wishes to diminish a rolley feel, a tighter set of dampeners alone might help by slowing down transient suspension reactions (in this case roll rate) at initial turn in. This may be what you are experiencing with struts alone. It has been my experience with previous cars - and I've been modding and racing for a very long time - that stiffer shocks alone mostly provide a perceptual benefit.

crawlgsx

I too have been modding and racing for a long time. Drag and Auto-X. I don't disagree with most of what you are saying, just that in your first post it sounded like you were basically saying the shocks/struts would not make a difference. I am saying it will.

To quote Road Race Engineering: "The purpose of the shock is to control the spring energy. Get more spring & you need more shock. If you are on a budget and can't afford both, get shocks only for better handling. If your only purpose is to get all the chicks & look cool with a lousy ride, get springs only."

SeattleGuy

I like it! A good healthy discussion!

crawlgsx

Definitely!

xDrug

So, how do you like the ride on your TRD's ? I assume you have them installed. Did you find a good deal on the installation in Luavull ? ))
I'm thinking about taking them off. It's my wife's car and even though she doesn't know I replaced the springs she's noticed the much harsher ride. I think 17's and the sway should stabilize the roll enough...
Very interested in your opinion.

PHATBLK

So what do you think about adding TRD shocks and struts to a stiff spring like the DF?

Does the increased damping help or hinder the road feel found in a stiffer spring?

xravexboix

Simply put:

Springs: Controls ride height, keeps tire on road

Higher Spring Rate = Decreased Body Roll, but if too stiff the tire will break traction easily. Best practices would find a moderately stiff spring that will ensure reduced body roll but still keeps the tire touching the road.

Lower Spring Rate - Body Roll is felt. Easy flexibility allows the tire to remain in contact w/ the road easily.

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Struts/Shocks: Reduces oscillation

Higher Dampening: Better (faster) weight transfer and quickly stops oscillation from springs, helps reduce body roll

Lower Dampening: Slower weight transfer, oscillations continue longer, body roll increased

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You have to find a shock that compliments the spring rate. If one is overkill and one is stock, it won't work =P That's why coilovers are a sound investment. You can get a set that is paired properly with some adjustability for your particular use. Most shocks in the market are designed to work with the most common spring rates out there, so you should be fine in most cases. And, of course, there is no perfect spring rate or shock damping rate. It all depends on the exact operation the vehicle will be used in.

JDMJim

I lik ethe ride of of TRD shocks and springs. not sure if there are different grades. mine say Sportivo on them. but it's fine. I like it. it's not as bouncy as some of you guys think it should be. but you should always expect a slightly stiffer ride. I mean, would you still upgrade your car if we said the car will be bouncy? it's like asking if the Mercedes will be a quieter ride if you bought it...