facing foward or facing backward.....advantages to both, disadvantages to both? if anyone can help me out with that. i figure that facing foward would get more air, but create more drag, but then i don' t see how any air gets in if it's facing backwards...

excerpt from a website

The only way to solve the problem of hot under-hood air is to get air from somewhere else. The solution is what is called a true cold air induction system, but is commonly called "Ram Air" (Pontiac invented that name). There are two common techniques used by these systems. The first is to draw air from the outside either through holes in the hood, or through openings in the grille into air ducts that channel the air through the air filter and into the carburetor. In almost all cases, the carb is sealed off from getting any air from under the hood. In fact, you can easily stall the engine by covering the holes on the hood or grille that feed the carb because the carb does not receive air from any other means. Oftentimes, the hood vents will actually be scoops or are raised from the rest of the hood, to capture air as it flows over the hood. Performance can be increased if these scoops are at least 1" above the surface of the hood, because the air flows faster than right at the hood's surface. Thus, the air flowing over the hood is "ramed" into the scoops, through the air ducts, and into the engine. While most scoops either point upwards or forward, Chevrolet pioneer their "Cowl Induction" system which featured a backward facing scoop right at the base of the windshield. This scoop actually received air that was forced backwards after hitting the windshield

Good point's DJ you cover most of what I was going to say. :) A Forward facing scoop will give you the most ram effect. A rearward facing one will keep more dirt and water out of the engine compartment than the foward one. now to truley get a bonus from forcing air in other than just getting cooler air then you really have to be moving. So chances are with a xB you will never see any advantage to a fwd facing scoop. A rear one will give you some cold air though. Another alternitive is one I haven't seen in years. That is loovers. It wont give you the same effect as a scoop but it will help reduce underhood tempetures and provides good cover for the engine. They also can be stamped into the hood in patterns and look really trick. That and an old school paint job like scallops plus some babay moons would be real trick. 8)

thanks for the info guys. how big is the negative effect that the scoops carry? is the benefit worth the drag it causes?

I don't think it'll have much negative effect. It's already a brick...

i think the only REAL negative will be the flack you'll recieve from all the boneheads out there. stuff like....
"that's not a racecar, so why do you got a scoop", "you're a ricer", and other various insults like those. :roll:

I think when you are asking about a rear-facing scoop, you mean something like I have on my other car. It looks like this:

http://gallery.s2ki.com/imagecatalog/imageview/47687/1

The above article describes "cowl induction" which is the only way a rear-facing scoop is going to work to bring cool air into the engine compatrment.

What I have, and I think what you are asking about, is not a rear-facing scoop. It is a vent for removing hot air, not for bringing in cool air.

Cool air flows in through the grille and radiator and flows up and out of the vent, pulling hot air out. When the car is stopped, I can see the waves of hot air rising out through the vent.

The lip on the vent provides a small amount of downforce to the front end.

The downside to the open vent (or a traditional scoop) is that water pours right into the engine compartment when it rains, so placement of the vent and evaluation of the under-hood electricals is important.

-Pete http://forums.s2ki.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif

Foward facing scoops (think Subaru Impreza WRX/STi) does brings air into the engine bay, but it all doesn't go into your engine, most of the air has to go somewhere? Where? It hits the firewall and goes under your car, causing a lift and possible hydroplaining in the rain.

Rear facing scoops like the one on the S2000 pictures above doesnt pull air into the engine bay, but rather creates a path for the air to leave the engine bay, therefore the air comes in through the grill, and goes out the scoop rather than under the car. You can also get more downforce from this set up.

For the Scion's you might want a reverse scoop like on the S2000 above, you will get more downforce and your engine will stay much cooler. If you get the foward facing scoop youre gonna hydroplane easier.

Good info! This one should be made a "sticky post".

woohoo, this is what i was hoping for...good info, thanks guys.

You're welcome, glad to know I helped!

okay, so if hot air is coming out of the hood, does that fog up your windshield at all?

Physics lesson time. Bling-bling folks tune out now...

There is a wonderful physics formula that describes the relationship between height, speed, and pressure. I won't bore you with details, but it basically says that when relative air speed is high, air pressure is low, and when relative air speed is low, air pressure is high.

When your car is sailing along through the air, the relative speed of the air on the outside of the car is high, so if you simply put a hole in the hood air will tend to be pushed out of the hole into the airflow by the greater pressure of the stationary air inside the engine bay.

However, if you come up with a way of stopping the airflow over the hood, the air, in stopping will increase in pressure, making it more likely to find its way into the engine bay.

A forward-facing hood scoop does this task in the obvious way. It creates a barrier that stops the air from moving over the hood, resulting in increased pressure.

You can be a bit sneaky about it and do it with a rear-facing scoop, if you put the inlet of the scoop near the bottom of the windshield. The windshield provides the barrier that stops (partially) the airflow near its base. It's no accident that the air intake for the interior is at the base of the windshield!

A rear-facing scoop near the front of the hood won't work for getting air into the engine bay, but sometimes you see them there for the purpose of getting air out of the bay, or, more likely, just for looks.

There is an _excellent_ intake location on the xB that isn't much discussed. The upper "grille" isn't a grill at all, but a solid panel. It also happens that it is a near-vertical surface, so there is a high stagnation pressure at that location. If you put an air intake in the upper "grille" it will work better than any forward or aft facing scoop you can put on the hood.

In any case, don't expect big pressures from air scoops. The much-touted "Ram Air" scoops of the '60s were good for a couple of horsepower on engines that normally made 300 horses. They were mostly for show, not for go.

George

Granted you open the "upper grill" then you get air into the engine bay. Where then, does the air go once it has entered your engine bay? Under the car, causing lift.

Thats why I am getting a reverse hood scoop when I get my CF Hood, and I'll then fabricate a "upper grill" to let air in through the grill and out the rear scoop. I've been planning this since I got the car back in January.

BTW It doesnt matter if air is soming in or out of a rear facing scoop. As long as the air is circulating and isn't going under the car, causing the very much unneeded lift.

Here's a couple of quad vent hoods for grand prixs. They both have 4 openings. Two in the front for ram air and two in back for heat removal. All the air that gets rammed in goes to the air box. None is diverted to the firewall and under the car like previuosly stated.

http://www.pfyc.com/store/graphics/new/gp1002.jpg
http://www.pfyc.com/store/graphics/new/gp1001.jpg

In any case, don't expect big pressures from air scoops. The much-touted "Ram Air" scoops of the '60s were good for a couple of horsepower on engines that normally made 300 horses. They were mostly for show, not for go.

Yeah, even John Delorean himself said the ram air scoops that he put on the Pontiac GTO's were just for show and that there position on the hood made them virtually useless above a certain speed which was also a pretty low speed because of the airflows angle over the hood was too high to hit the scoops.

I am not so sure a scoop would look right on a scion. But thats just my opinion. I like the idea of using the upper grill. I checked it out, its just a plastic panel, Im sure you could drill some small inconspicuous holes in it at certain intervals to get more air under the hood. I dont know how well it would work, but its just an idea.

Foward facing scoops (think Subaru Impreza WRX/STi) does brings air into the engine bay, but it all doesn't go into your engine, most of the air has to go somewhere? Where? It hits the firewall and goes under your car, causing a lift and possible hydroplaining in the rain.

You weren't serious with this statement, were you? There's no way a 300lbs+ car would be "lifted" by the pressure going into a hood scoop the size of the one on a WRX. MAYBE if the scoop was as big as the entire hood and you were able to go fast enough.

No. This is a false statement. Omit the hood scoop issue and just look at the front grill of most cars & trucks. If this statement was true, all large-grilled vehicles would hydroplane.

Anyway, you can use scoops to feed CAIs. I did this on my '83 RX7. Worked well.

Enjoy!

Foward facing scoops (think Subaru Impreza WRX/STi) does brings air into the engine bay, but it all doesn't go into your engine, most of the air has to go somewhere? Where? It hits the firewall and goes under your car, causing a lift and possible hydroplaining in the rain.

Rear facing scoops like the one on the S2000 pictures above doesnt pull air into the engine bay, but rather creates a path for the air to leave the engine bay, therefore the air comes in through the grill, and goes out the scoop rather than under the car. You can also get more downforce from this set up.

For the Scion's you might want a reverse scoop like on the S2000 above, you will get more downforce and your engine will stay much cooler. If you get the foward facing scoop youre gonna hydroplane easier.

I think this post may be the dumbest thing I have ever heard in my entire life.

I have had 3 Subarus with Forward Facing scoops... you're not going to get force under the car equal to a Harrier Jet, you are not going to get ANY "lift" from a forward facing scoop.

My god that gave me a good laugh

I've heard your not supposed to get water in your wrx scoop when you wash it, is that true?

I've heard your not supposed to get water in your wrx scoop when you wash it, is that true?

Well what happens when it rains? The car doesn't blow up does it? :roll:

I've heard your not supposed to get water in your wrx scoop when you wash it, is that true?

Well what happens when it rains? The car doesn't blow up does it? :roll:


That's what that "Rain Drain" pump is for. They all come with them. It pumps the water out the back like a boat when the engine bay starts to take on water.

I've heard your not supposed to get water in your wrx scoop when you wash it, is that true?

Well what happens when it rains? The car doesn't blow up does it? :roll:


That's what that "Rain Drain" pump is for. They all come with them. It pumps the water out the back like a boat when the engine bay starts to take on water.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, There is no "Rain Drain" on my car! Water just flows over the intercooler and gravity takes over or it evaporates.

You are in denial! :lol:

Where do you think the STi gets the water for the IntArk00ler from??!!1 You have to wait for it to rain or until you wash the car to fill up the sprayer tank. :lol:

(just kidding!!!)

Foward facing scoops (think Subaru Impreza WRX/STi) does brings air into the engine bay, but it all doesn't go into your engine, most of the air has to go somewhere? Where? It hits the firewall and goes under your car, causing a lift and possible hydroplaining in the rain.


lol, listen to what ketchup and BrysImpreza say. There is absolutely no way that air from a hood scoop will create enough lift to cause hydroplaning. Please, for the sake of car enthusiasts everywhere, take a physics class and think before you post.

Hell, for the sake of your dignity, take a physics class and think before you post. I found this post when it was linked in another car forum where everyone was making fun of what you said.

Foward facing scoops (think Subaru Impreza WRX/STi) does brings air into the engine bay, but it all doesn't go into your engine, most of the air has to go somewhere? Where? It hits the firewall and goes under your car, causing a lift and possible hydroplaining in the rain.

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v297/mlsaint78/smart.jpg




So, in theory, if you set up the spoiler on the back so that it too created lift, you could make the car fly. :shock:


"Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads"
-Doc

Foward facing scoops (think Subaru Impreza WRX/STi) does brings air into the engine bay, but it all doesn't go into your engine, most of the air has to go somewhere? Where? It hits the firewall and goes under your car, causing a lift and possible hydroplaining in the rain.

Rear facing scoops like the one on the S2000 pictures above doesnt pull air into the engine bay, but rather creates a path for the air to leave the engine bay, therefore the air comes in through the grill, and goes out the scoop rather than under the car. You can also get more downforce from this set up.

For the Scion's you might want a reverse scoop like on the S2000 above, you will get more downforce and your engine will stay much cooler. If you get the foward facing scoop youre gonna hydroplane easier.

..............are you stoned?

teh OT laughs at you... all of you...and for the love of god, did your cars come with or without training wheels???


chris

Foward facing scoops (think Subaru Impreza WRX/STi) does brings air into the engine bay, but it all doesn't go into your engine, most of the air has to go somewhere? Where? It hits the firewall and goes under your car, causing a lift and possible hydroplaining in the rain.

You weren't serious with this statement, were you? There's no way a 300lbs+ car would be "lifted" by the pressure going into a hood scoop the size of the one on a WRX. MAYBE if the scoop was as big as the entire hood and you were able to go fast enough.

No. This is a false statement. Omit the hood scoop issue and just look at the front grill of most cars & trucks. If this statement was true, all large-grilled vehicles would hydroplane.

Anyway, you can use scoops to feed CAIs. I did this on my '83 RX7. Worked well.

Enjoy!

I'm not saying the car will be lifted. I was saying it could induce hydroplaning on a already light weight car that has no low center of gravity like a horizontially opposed engined Subaru. The xB weights 2400 Lbs, how much does your all wheeldrive car weigh?

Foward facing scoops (think Subaru Impreza WRX/STi) does brings air into the engine bay, but it all doesn't go into your engine, most of the air has to go somewhere? Where? It hits the firewall and goes under your car, causing a lift and possible hydroplaining in the rain.

Rear facing scoops like the one on the S2000 pictures above doesnt pull air into the engine bay, but rather creates a path for the air to leave the engine bay, therefore the air comes in through the grill, and goes out the scoop rather than under the car. You can also get more downforce from this set up.

For the Scion's you might want a reverse scoop like on the S2000 above, you will get more downforce and your engine will stay much cooler. If you get the foward facing scoop youre gonna hydroplane easier.

I think this post may be the dumbest thing I have ever heard in my entire life.

I have had 3 Subarus with Forward Facing scoops... you're not going to get force under the car equal to a Harrier Jet, you are not going to get ANY "lift" from a forward facing scoop.

My god that gave me a good laugh

Check the curb weight of your Subaru and compare it to a Scion xB. BTW doesnt the Subarus have a horizontially opposed engine thus giving it a much lower center of gravity. Oh yeah, theyre also all wheel drive doesnt that equal much more weight? So if a car weights a lot less it couldn't it be affected by wind? And also aerodynamics? You swear a box on wheels is going to be just as stable as a Subaru when they're both goin on the freeway at 110 MPH, I'm game to test out my stupid idea of a rear facing hood scoop with any Scion with a foward facing scoop in the rain.

Foward facing scoops (think Subaru Impreza WRX/STi) does brings air into the engine bay, but it all doesn't go into your engine, most of the air has to go somewhere? Where? It hits the firewall and goes under your car, causing a lift and possible hydroplaining in the rain.


lol, listen to what ketchup and BrysImpreza say. There is absolutely no way that air from a hood scoop will create enough lift to cause hydroplaning. Please, for the sake of car enthusiasts everywhere, take a physics class and think before you post.

Hell, for the sake of your dignity, take a physics class and think before you post. I found this post when it was linked in another car forum where everyone was making fun of what you said.

Umm... I took Honors/AP Physics in High School and I managed to ace it. No I didn't go a a stupid school. I DO NOT CLAIM TO KNOW IT ALL, IF YOU THINK IM WRONG DONT CALL ME AN IDIOT. EXPLAIN IT TO ME HOW I MAY BE WRONG. I think you are forgetting that were talking about a light as hell box on wheels and they could use as much stability as possible dont you think? I mean Subes got all wheel drive, and hell of a lot more weight to plant its already wider than a scion wheelbase to the ground. just my 2 cents.

teh OT laughs at you... all of you...and for the love of god, did your cars come with or without training wheels???


chris

Is this really the most clever thing you could come up with?

Get whatever ____ing hood you want. I was trying to give what advice I thought could help. I figured a box on wheels can't afford any more possible instability when your're going fast. I didn't say you will get more lift definitely, I said its possible to get more lift, and hydroplane easier.

You're comparing a Scion which weighs 2400 LBS, to a Subaru which weighs a ____ load more. Its like comparing comaring Evander Holifield to your 10 year old little brother. A Scion is much taller, lighter and doesnt have a wide stance. And It lacks a horizontially opposed engine to boot, so stock for stock which car would you feel safer in when youre going lets say 75MPH in the rain? Now how about 100 MPh? how about taking turns, in the rain, which one would you want to be in? I know what it feels like to hydroplane in a light weight car. I know what it feels like to have my rear end loose grip in the rain. The question is do you? It will scare the ____ out of you the first time it happens, just as it did to me. I am not some kid who knows jack, I've known how to drive for years, and nothing can prepare you for when you loose control of your car in the rain, and I'm not talking about drifting im talking about unexpected loss of control.

You question weather or not I have any inteligence. I question if you're an ___! So what if I'm totaly wrong? You have no right to make fun of me for being incorrect, espicially when I have atleast some theory to back up my claim. If you believe I am wrong then point my mistake and explain to me why/how I am wrong. BUT NEVER POKE FUN AT SOMEONE FOR SIMPLY BEING WRONG.

Foward facing scoops (think Subaru Impreza WRX/STi) does brings air into the engine bay, but it all doesn't go into your engine, most of the air has to go somewhere? Where? It hits the firewall and goes under your car, causing a lift and possible hydroplaining in the rain.

You weren't serious with this statement, were you? There's no way a 300lbs+ car would be "lifted" by the pressure going into a hood scoop the size of the one on a WRX. MAYBE if the scoop was as big as the entire hood and you were able to go fast enough.

No. This is a false statement. Omit the hood scoop issue and just look at the front grill of most cars & trucks. If this statement was true, all large-grilled vehicles would hydroplane.

Anyway, you can use scoops to feed CAIs. I did this on my '83 RX7. Worked well.

Enjoy!

I'm not saying the car will be lifted. I was saying it could induce hydroplaning on a already light weight car that has no low center of gravity like a horizontially opposed engined Subaru. The xB weights 2400 Lbs, how much does your all wheeldrive car weigh?


Kevin,
I think even w/ a 2400 lb car (Xb) would have a very difficult time getting any type of lift from a small forward-facing scoop. The front surface that is open for the grill for engine bay cooling would be putting more air flow under the car than a small scoop would. The best way to minimize air flow under the car would be to seal off the bottom area of the engine bay and then provide vents on the topt (hood) that equal the grill's open area.

This would make the air flow go from grill-->under car to grill-->over car. This would give a lot of down-force.

Granted the foward scoop wont cause enough lift, but it will help make matters worse if/when the situation arises. Theres a considerable amount of plastic under the car to do what youre talking about, but still air can go under. Thats why I was saying a reverse scoop along with an open upper grill would work. Air comes in the grill and out the reverse scoop. If you had a ram air scoop and an open grill youre gonna get a lot of air into the engine bay am I right? Isn't is possible to have too much air in the engine bay?

That's what I noticed a lot of drifters at D1 had on their car. Like Immamura's APEXi RX-7, he even V-mounted his intercooler so air comes in the bumper, through the radiator, through the intercooler and out the reverse scoop. It just seems more practical to me, to have a reverse scoop. When air comes through the upper grill and through the reverse scoop the air will come in and will go out the scoop, and will travel over the car instead of under. As little as it is I figure that Scions could use as much downforce as possible.

not to add fuel to the fire but.....

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=596544&highlight=scion

Really now. I cant beleive im hearing this from someone who claims to be a car enthusiast.

NO, a hood scoop will not provide ANY noticable lift to a car! Go out and pull up on a hoodscoop, and see what happens. Im willing to bet that the hood scoop will rip off or deform before the suspension moves any considerable amount. The WRX STI is a 3200 pound car. Even your 2400 pound scion wouldnt feel any effect from a little hood scoop.

High school physics had ____ ____ all to do with aerodynamics. I know that my high school physics didnt cover it. If you are that worried bout hydroplaning then get a good set of tires, and think logically before you type

where the hell have i been for all of this!

damn! i gotta remember from now on to not put my hand out the window when it's raining.. i might cause a side updraft on the left side of my car and it might ROLL!!!

seriously people.. to create LIFT, you'd see your suspension LIFT at speed. i think there's enough force slamming into that gigantic ugly ____ing nose you have to keep you at low enough of a speed as it is.

do you know how much downforce a WING creates? yes, a huge freakin aluminum wing..

at most, 50 lbs..

now take that surface area and try to translate it into a fractional cross section of aNY size of hood scoop you may encounter (remember, the air slamming into your bumper and fugly ___ grille will be pushed straight upwards, blocking most airflow you think would be hitting your hood)

let's say you have half the area.. (ain't gonna happen) so that's 25 lbs of upforce..

the difference between carrying your groceries..

but wait, there's more...

that 25lbs of "upforce" no longer has a nice 45degree angle to act apon.. your wing is a nice smooth angled surface for the air to hit, right?

now you're forcing 1/8th the air allowed to act on your aluminum wing into .. and it's blowing through a tiny slit and into a large area..

picture this.. c'mon people, use common sense..

if i were to take an air hose.. and a 55 gallon drum with the top cut off.. and i were to stand the barrel upside down..

then poke a hole in the bottom (now top) of the barrel and stick an air hose in it and turn it on..

what happens?

does the barrel float?

no, the miniscule amount of air pushed into the barrel by the hose is dissipated around the edges of the barrel, and NOTHING happens..

now, sit on the barrel.. does the barrel float now?

no.. it blows bubbles on the edges.

and that's on a sealed surface..

now, put the barrel on a pallet, and weigh it. it weighs let's say 80 lbs with the pallet..

turn on the air while the barrel is sitting on the pallet.. what does it weigh? less?

learn some freakin basic common sense, THEN post..

makes me want to sell my scion.. and someone wanted to make this a STICKY thread?

OMFG

Wow I can not believe how many hot headed people are ont his board. I am not saying bB384 is right or that he is wrong, but I will say that what he is saying is meant to prevent some type of accident that may happen once, possibly twice, but that could have been prevented. What I will also say is that his alternative suggestion, air flow through the lower grill with a rear facing scoop for venting, makes much more sense on a car that isn't going to have a tremendous ammount of flow over the hood anyway. Why jump his bones for trying to help a few people out. Before you start flaming him stop and think about how much more useful his suggestion about how the scoop should be set up is than the forward facing one and quit worrying about whether or not he is right about lifting the car.

Also CivicEater, you are comparing downforce on the back of the vehicle with lift on the front. On a front-wheel drive vehicle. This doesn't make much sense. If you were to put a huge wing on the back and add lift to the front that just increases your chances of the front wheels losing a tiny bit of traction that they need in order to steer AND drive. Also, don't think you will be making friends on this board by dissing the xB, most of us here like all the Scion models, even if we only own one of them.

Also CivicEater, you are comparing downforce on the back of the vehicle with lift on the front. On a front-wheel drive vehicle. This doesn't make much sense. If you were to put a huge wing on the back and add lift to the front that just increases your chances of the front wheels losing a tiny bit of traction that they need in order to steer AND drive. Also, don't think you will be making friends on this board by dissing the xB, most of us here like all the Scion models, even if we only own one of them.

Consmadulations, you missed the point. :roll:

CivicEater was comparing the active downforce area of a wing "huge ___ aluminum ricer wing" to that of the possible downforce or lift rather that the hoodscoop could create.
In no way was he suggesting a wing.

Check the curb weight of your Subaru and compare it to a Scion xB. BTW doesnt the Subarus have a horizontially opposed engine thus giving it a much lower center of gravity. Oh yeah, theyre also all wheel drive doesnt that equal much more weight? So if a car weights a lot less it couldn't it be affected by wind? And also aerodynamics? You swear a box on wheels is going to be just as stable as a Subaru when they're both goin on the freeway at 110 MPH, I'm game to test out my stupid idea of a rear facing hood scoop with any Scion with a foward facing scoop in the rain.

when did weight start to reduce the effect of "aerodynamics"??
it's not as iff your scion is going to blow off the road..

when did weight start to reduce the effect of "aerodynamics"??
it's not as iff your scion is going to blow off the road..

:shock: and all this time I've been trying to lighten the car...and for what? I could have easily just increased the size of my hood scoop and mounted fans in the front of it for instant lift and weight reduction. :lol:

Consmadulations, you missed the point.

CivicEater was comparing the active downforce area of a wing "huge ___ aluminum ricer wing" to that of the possible downforce or lift rather that the hoodscoop could create.
In no way was he suggesting a wing.

So why worry with what a wing on the back would do if not comparing it in some way to the front. A wing has nothing to do with lift on the front of the car.

Consmadulations, you missed the point.

CivicEater was comparing the active downforce area of a wing "huge ___ aluminum ricer wing" to that of the possible downforce or lift rather that the hoodscoop could create.
In no way was he suggesting a wing.

So why worry with what a wing on the back would do if not comparing it in some way to the front. A wing has nothing to do with lift on the front of the car.

i was comparing wind forces of a wing versus a scoop.

up/down it doesn't matter.. if your wing creates 50lbs of force, up or down, how do you think a hood scoop attached to a short flimsy hood is gonna create even a fraction of that much down/up force?

oh, and as far as flaming the xB.. well i'm not.. i was just making a point that having such a large front end will basically remove any opportunity for air to enter a forward facing scoop..

i see no one is arguing with my barrel theory.. good job.

[quote]So why worry with what a wing on the back would do if not comparing it in some way to the front. A wing has nothing to do with lift on the front of the car.

fyi a 55 gallon drum has nothing to do with a scion either..

[quote]So why worry with what a wing on the back would do if not comparing it in some way to the front. A wing has nothing to do with lift on the front of the car.

fyi a 55 gallon drum has nothing to do with a scion either..

ohh, I thought you were suggesting that we cut a 55 gal drum length wise and mount it on the trunk as a wing for down force and install an airhose as an diffuser? did I do this wrong? :lol:

up/down it doesn't matter.. if your wing creates 50lbs of force, up or down, how do you think a hood scoop attached to a short flimsy hood is gonna create even a fraction of that much down/up force?

Ok, now it makes sense. I understand what you are saying.



fyi a 55 gallon drum has nothing to do with a scion either..

True the drum has nothing to do with a scion but it made a good point.

fyi a 55 gallon drum has nothing to do with a scion either..

well if the desired effect is to mount a hood scoop to a scion and have it not create excessive lift as in the heavy-assed-horizonttially-opposed-engined all wheeldriven tank known as the subaru sti.... the following approach can be taken.

Epifany#1 it’s the beer keg in the back that really create the downforce. Not the 55-gallon drum.
as we all know, frat boys eat allot of pizza, and gain 10 pounds a semester. (GO GOPHERS!1!1!)

Reasonable assumption #1 ANY day of the week when you find beer in a bus, or in this example, pony kegs in the back in teh scion, you will get frat boys wanting free rides and free beer...

Reasonable assumption #2 as we can surmise, fat frats in the back constitutes a significant weight gain for the scion.

Epiphany #2 Take into consideration, bB384's theorem that gross vehicle weight proportionally offsets said vehicle’s vulnerability to wind, drag, lift, and pretty much all matter anti matter and the pull of black holes..

Reasonable and well informed conclusion. It is now safe to conclude that a 55 gallon drum (i.e. two or 3 kegs of P.B.R.) would allow the scion to have a hood scoop, and still stay attached to the pavement similar to the heavy-assed-horizonttially-opposed-engined all wheeldriven tank known as the subaru sti...

/hugs

DISCOPOPE= astrophysics major? :shock: :D







b.t.w. I think my mom went to Univ. of MN. Library sciences or something IIRC.

pirated from NASIOC

sorry guys :)http://memimage.cardomain.com/member_images/12/web/324000-324999/324578_152_full.jpg

DISCOPOPE= astrophysics major? :shock: :D







b.t.w. I think my mom went to Univ. of MN. Library sciences or something IIRC.

No disco pope doesn't need to be an astrophysics major....he has common sense and a larger-than-the-average-STI-driver's vocabulary

Jeff

Check the curb weight of your Subaru and compare it to a Scion xB. BTW doesnt the Subarus have a horizontially opposed engine thus giving it a much lower center of gravity. Oh yeah, theyre also all wheel drive doesnt that equal much more weight? So if a car weights a lot less it couldn't it be affected by wind? And also aerodynamics? You swear a box on wheels is going to be just as stable as a Subaru when they're both goin on the freeway at 110 MPH, I'm game to test out my stupid idea of a rear facing hood scoop with any Scion with a foward facing scoop in the rain.

when did weight start to reduce the effect of "aerodynamics"??
it's not as iff your scion is going to blow off the road..

Weight doesn't directly affect aerodynamics. I may be wrong, But a light weight car can have trouble keeping its stability at high speeds. Isn't why they lighten a car and add a spoiler?

NOW DON'T QUOTE ME I MAY BE WRONG HERE...

Most folks lighten a car for a better weight /power ratio.
Most people put a wing on the car to look cool. (i will skip the debate on spoiler vs wing for the moment)

a lighter car has less mass equating to a reduced prerequisite of friction when attempting asphalt adherence. It all goes in a big circle...

Light car, less friction,
Light car less inertia.
Less inertia, less friction required to stick it to the road....

Newton’s law #1

you're not even considering aerodynamics in this whole weight vs stability thing..

a lightweight car will be more affected by crosswinds yes, but i'll guarantee the heavier xB is more affected by wind than my lighter xA.

cuz one's a toaster and one's an egg..

you're not even considering aerodynamics in this whole weight vs stability thing..

a lightweight car will be more affected by crosswinds yes, but i'll guarantee the heavier xB is more affected by wind than my lighter xA.

cuz one's a toaster and one's an egg..

2004 Scion xA = 2340
2004 Scion xB = 2425

I don't think 85 lbs would make that much difference, but yes, you are correct.

3GG80X is 8)

The point is simple...

Your ___ weighs more then the possible upforce or lift that the wind or pressure you say will give.


With that said, you also have to remember that there is air already flowing underneath the car. IF you measure that you would realize that it has a hell of alot more possiblility of a lift going on then then a silly hood scoop that gets diffused while it goes around the engine bay. Yes I said diffused, is that a new word? If anything most air would become diffused from the front nose and bumper. This is why airplanes are much more sleek and have actual wings that create lift.

There's a video of an Rx-7 I believe started going airborne at around 160+.

Quick explanation of Hyrdroplaning and when it happens... http://www.msgroup.org/TIP089.html
Hyrdoplaning is when your car looses traction with the road becuase of road surface not becuase of the car lifting like an airplane. Yes if you go over a cliff you will fly, well more exactly fall.

And it's right about the car itself... The tires would stay contacted but the body itself might (highly highly higly improbable) lift at least a little bit from a scoop of some sort. But that usually happens anyways at high speeds becuase of the design of the car.

I like the whole lighter car, less inertia, less friction, less force to keep it on the ground. But for me at least I wonder if a heavier car is better behind a huge truck. For me at least I get alot of air and it moves my car alot.

Besides my babbling and probably not making sense becuase I am so just in awe of the ignorance... here it goes...

Let's review again, your ___ still weighs more then the possible upforce or lift that the wind or pressure you say will give.

you're not even considering aerodynamics in this whole weight vs stability thing..

a lightweight car will be more affected by crosswinds yes, but i'll guarantee the heavier xB is more affected by wind than my lighter xA.

cuz one's a toaster and one's an egg..

Thats why I'm preachin that the xB needs as much downforce as possible to keep it stable. Now let't squash this cuz I'm tired of drama. You think I'm wrong I'm wrong. I'll be the idiot with a reverse scoop you be the smarter ones with a ram air scoop. I tried to offer my advice in hopes of helping someone out.

I've learned to keep my ideas/thoughts/advice to myself.

i for one appreciated the input. i don't think that you should let a bunch of people who aren't even a part of this forum discourage you from trying to help. cause, all in all, everything they said just supported what you said. they just said that it wasn't as extreme as THEY thought you meant. in any case, i would rant and rave about certain things, but it would just start another flame. so thank you for your input bB384.

matt

:shock: bB384 you are so stupid man, keep driving the scion ok man?

scion is a p.o.s. :D

Registering to a forum, just to post that someone is stupid takes a lot of intelligence. Standing ovation to you my friend. So, Scionisapos...lets here your input on what you know about hood scoop aerodynamics.

I've learned to keep my ideas/thoughts/advice to myself.

lol i'll remember this

Hey bB384,

I just read over this thread and want to buy the rights to your idea! I'm in the process of writing up a patent pending hood scoop design that will literally transform the automobile/aviation industries!

I've did all the calculations and I'm going to make a hood scoop that is 24'w X 6'h and doesn't send all the air into the intake or through the engine compartment, but instead channels it directly under the car.

Based on Newton's Formula Lift=(V X V(2))/weight I've calculated that my Xb will be airborne at the easily attainable speed of 212mph. Given the hefty 4 banger in the box, it should be no problem getting air or even doing tricks, spins and sumersaults with my patented "WHAA WHAA" button that changes the trajectory of the incoming wind force allowing the driver/pilot to do mid air stunts!

This is REVOLUTIONARY and I owe it all to you bB384. I know what you're thinking and don't worry, I'll hook you up when I make my first Trillion dollars. Who would have thought that the secret to making the first ever flying car was right there in front of us all these years!!?? I know who. bB384. You Knew.

Kevin saw it, Kevin thought it, Kevin posted it.

Guys, insults really don't help improve our knowledge.

If air is pushed under the hood and therefore under the car it will lift the car _slightly_. Not really important normally, but could be important if you are looking for the last percent of cornering grip in a race car.

What I suggested was putting your ram air holes in the fake grille and plumbing them directly to the air filter. No air under the car this way. Not much power increase either, but we can all dream, right?

In any case, holes in the fake plastic grille are much easier to achieve than attaching scoops on the hood, and they would be equally effective.

Now, if you're contemplating an intercooler, the fake grille would be an ideal air source!

Hey bB384,

I just read over this thread and want to buy the rights to your idea! I'm in the process of writing up a patent pending hood scoop design that will literally transform the automobile/aviation industries!

I've did all the calculations and I'm going to make a hood scoop that is 24'w X 6'h and doesn't send all the air into the intake or through the engine compartment, but instead channels it directly under the car.

Based on Newton's Formula Lift=(V X V(2))/weight I've calculated that my Xb will be airborne at the easily attainable speed of 212mph. Given the hefty 4 banger in the box, it should be no problem getting air or even doing tricks, spins and sumersaults with my patented "WHAA WHAA" button that changes the trajectory of the incoming wind force allowing the driver/pilot to do mid air stunts!

This is REVOLUTIONARY and I owe it all to you bB384. I know what you're thinking and don't worry, I'll hook you up when I make my first Trillion dollars. Who would have thought that the secret to making the first ever flying car was right there in front of us all these years!!?? I know who. bB384. You Knew.

Kevin saw it, Kevin thought it, Kevin posted it.

Hey ____face first of all youre a year too late! Second do you track race your car? Do you you drag race your car? Do you autocross your car? Do you street race your car? Do you "Togue" (canyon race) your car? No? Well I canyon race my car, It serves me well, all my "stupid ideals" seem right so far. When people have their carbon fiber hoods opening up on them on the freeway I laugh. You must be one of those Idiots! Last time I checked they didn't have ram air scoops in JGTC cars (JGTC Cars have reverse scoops is anything), D1 Cars(D1 too, if any they have reverse scoops, NASCAR has no reverse scoops. My point is that I made those comments from a racers point of view, I've seen first hand those scoops pulling hoods open on the freeway and doing damage to my friends windshield and sunroof, and yes he locked the hood down, but eventually the carbon fiber broke and flew open. And regarding your calculations that you need to obtain the speed of 212 Mph, great cuz my car weights 2200 LBS, I've gutted the hell out of it, and Im going to get closer to that speed way faster than you ever will. My car rides the limiter all day long, flying down the freeway with the speedometer pitted at 125+ MPH, lets see your physics help you get that fast! I'm confident enough to race any Scion xB on this damn forum, I'll laugh when you loose control on the freeway at 100 MPh, I'll laugh when you loose control in the canyons, I'll laugh when you ____ up at the tracks! I'll gladly give you the specs on my car, even though I dont drag race I'll drag race any Scion thats closely matched to my car anytime! So unless you want to shut up and prove me wrong, go screw your self!