Dont worry about the head being of FE design. The 2AZ will be able to made more powerful than the K20...... both engines are of excellent design, but in the end, when you have two high quality engines there is no replacement for displacement. The lack of a G designed performance head isnt going to get too much in the way.

 

As for the issues of VTEC.

There is a very simple, but costly solution for f/i on a vtec motor. One thing i love about honda motors, is, well as we all know, theres literally thousands of motor parts for hondas. The thing i would do with the K20 that would solve it?

Spoon conversion kit. End of story. Very expensive, but you will be putting 250whp with the full conversion alone. (doesn't have to be RHD converted) I know someone with a B16 Spoon with a turbo in a civic hatch, hes putting down in the 500whp range with i believe a 17-20psi turbo.

As far as 2az out performing the K20 in the end. Thats way off. If you have exact same mods or very similar mods in both cars, i will bet you in the end the K20 will take it every time. Of course the 2az has the low rpm support, which definitely helps a lot. But, the K20 is an amazing motor to build up. If i buy the Si i'm keeping it n/a with a spoon set up. That would be my goal.



Also, VTEC i believe can handle up to 15psi before things start going wrong. And the problem is, the system pulls fairly hard in the K20 as it is. (being a drastic jump in whp from low rpm to high which is why you can feel "vtec" engage generally) So, when you put that much whp on top end you are going to have issues eventually. All motors would have problems with it, not just vtec eventually.

Cya

 

Sorry, but your post seems to be a bit biased

you could either say

197 hp for civic
160 hp for tC

139 ft/lbs for civic
161 ft/lbs for tC

or....I could make a biased post like yours
gobs of hp for civic 20k
adequate hp for tC 16k

139 ft/lbs for civic 20k
161 ft/lbs for tC 16k


not having to be a slower car - priceless


and to be honest with you, 20 ft/lbs more does not sound like "gobs" to me.

 

Technically speaking, the 2.4 L will make more power simply due to displacement...however, that's assuming pretty much everything else has been maxed out. The K20 may be a smaller motor, but it's got a very high flowing head and is still able to produce quite a bit of power without replacing any internals. I think there's a guy on clubrsx that's pushing around 500+ whp with a turbo. he lives in houston if that helps.

 

Of course I have to sound biased ;)

To be honest, it feels like gobs or torque. The RSX-S my friend has did NOT feel like a getter-upper going around in the neighbor hood. Of course I didn't want to be raping his engine around 35 mph zones so I granny'd around under 3k rpm. When I got up to above 2k rpm it certainly feels better but not like the tC at 2k rpm.

That's just what I'm saying. Please don't think lesser of my for comparing a little rev monster to a little brute. This same guy test drove a tC - he was amazed at how he could pass people in the last gear - albeit, it was one gear under the RSX-S's 6th gear.



But I think your post was about the torque. Like I said, the tC certainly feels better in torque and the delivery is nicer since its engine is designed for duty in non-tuner cars. Also the curve starts and stops earlier than on an RSX seeing as the tC maxes out at 6k rpm. So go figure, eh?

I agree with you though, I'd have to say. But since I was justifying the tC, I would have to be biased towards the tC. That little snippet was a stock vs stock comparison.

As both cars do have their pricless qualities (I would say that the Si is about the quick handling more than anything) the tC's is, like said, not having to shift constantly.

And as a stock vs stock comparison, the assumption would then be that both cars are going to be used as a commuter car with a little pep. In this case, neither car is faster if both cars travel down the freeway at 75 mph. The tC's passing power would then make it more "priceless" than the Si in this circumstance.

The pricelessness of having the faster car would only come into play in a completely stock car race or, more realistically, after enthusiasts start modding like killerxromances said, because stock is too restrictive.

Therefore, the tC is the clear winner in the context I'm talking about in my own version of a stock vs stock comparison.

 

Ahh, before anyone says anything.

In a different context, ie absolute speed potential, the Si is a clear winner in a stock vs stock comparison.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is entirely self delusional as the Si comes stock better performing and better handling. Looks are to be set aside as looks can't be measured as concrete (even then, the Si is clearly more aerodynamic since we're still looking at speed in this case.)

The tC has nothing on the Si in terms of speed.

 

My thoughts:
(mod for mod, stock vs. stock, equal drivers, whatever)
1/4 - Si
1/8 - undecided
Top out - Si
Autocross - Si
Launches - tC

RPM scale:
Low end goes to the tC
Top end goes to the Si

Overall best bang for the buck, IMO:
If you want just a nice coupe to drive daily, and sometimes have your weekend fun in buy the tC.
If you want a performance - geared car with a good price, drive daily and be able to hit the tracks on the weekend, Si.

Cya

 

.

Now Firstly, I never said mod for mod.....the K20 has a 30hp advantage to begin with And of course the K20 is an amazing engine to build up. However instead of spending a fortune on a Spoon setup, why not go with a K24 bottom end?? Cheaper, roughly the same HP....

I dont understand what you mean when you say VTEC can handle up to 15psi before things start to go wrong..... Boost is not going to affect the VTEC cylinder head, so i'd assume you are speaking about a given VTEC engine. With those compression ratios, I dont expect you to be running 15 psi on pumpgas, nor running 15 psi for very long with those internals. They would hold up, but not for very long.

Now, lets get something straight. VTEC engines don't like turbos. Case closed. Before you go dig up examples of well built VTEC motors, hear me out.
The problem with VTEC and turbos is the variable cam profile. Any Variable Lift valve system would theoretically share the same problem. Why? Becasue turbos dont like the same cam profile and combustion chamber events that NA engines do. I could elaborate, but thats as simple as I could put it. NA engines thrive on high lift, long duration cams, while turbos generally work better with mid lift, short duration cams. That why there were so many problems that presented themselves when people started turboing VTEC engines. The VVT system found in most toyotas & nissans etc alters timing, not lift, which has a lesser effect on the efficiency and operation of an integrated turbo system. (the VVTL-i however is a different story, even so because of better engineering and different operation, works better than VTEC).

 

Not saying you are wrong, you are correct and i do agree with most of what you are saying. However, i know someone running 12psi on a K20 motor. Hes been doing it since 2002 running on stock intervals, 91oct gas. He has not run into a single problem with his motor or turbo. I also know a few others with a f/i vtec motor, with that said, i would have to disagree with the vtec not liking turbo set up statement.

I would go the spoon route for several reasons. Not only for go, but you also have a nice show set up as well. Not to say a k24 bottom end wouldn't be good show and go, but spoon is a different level..class if you will. When i was talking about vtec, i was just speaking generally.

15psi statement. Someone on a honda forum i've known for a while was running 15psi on stock intervals. Problems started to appear within a year. He beefed up the intervals and things were fine since then. Sorry, i did not mean to say vtec when i was talking about the problems. Like i said before, i tend to run off on seperate things and it can sound all mixed up and stuff. Especially online, i get excited when talking i guess and i go crazy.

Cya

 

Fair enough.
i-VTEC internals...specifically on the K20 are stronger than last generation Bseries and Hseries motors.
If you look at early Turbo VTEC motors, you will find that the VTEC had to be disengaged. Tuning a turbo to run effectively on two different sets of cam profiles and timing events is very tricky and somewhat difficult. Those folks are either : real lucky, lacking power in some areas of the rev range or not getting the full potential out of the motor, or they just bought a full aftermarket turbo kit that already worked out all the bugs for them. And for your friend running 12 psi...sounds manageable, but boost on an 11+:1 CR on anything but 100 octane gas is looking for trouble. Maybe when he goes in for some work you could get a look inside to see the pistons and wether or not they are scorched from detonation. No he might not bust a rod or spin his bearings (yet) or mess up the crank or have a piston fly through the bonnet, but you do have other problems to worry about.
quick Q.... did he use a decompression plate?

and for that samauri guy...what the hell do you mean the si wins in absolute speed potential in a stock vs stock situation???!??!?
damn...english......
If you mean the Si is faster stock for stock, you would be right. If you meant it has potential to build more power, then you are very wrong... or just dilusional . Even the most potent motors have displacement as a limiting factor. Lok at the RB26DETT from the Skyline GT-R...bet you didnt know most high power (as in > ~700hp) skylines have their engine displacement increased to 2.7 or 2.8 litres? Fact of the matter is, when you have two high quality motors, displacement is what becomes the limiting factor. A 2AZ head can be modified to have high flowing characteristics... the only limiting factor is the size of your bank account.

 

[quote="killerxromances"]With another extra 5k you can buy a used C5 vette with 40k miles, which I am sure even stock is better then a modded Civic. ;)

 

[quote="apexjr"]I've seen videos of a civic hatch beating a C5. Just because its a corvette doesn't mean its not beatable. Hell, with the right mods, time, and $$$ my box can beat a C5.

Besides, used corvettes are bound to be ran to ground. I don't like vettes anyway, over-rated and way over-priced. (not saying they aren't nice, but with that money i'd buy another car anyway)

Cya

 

Sorry! I didn't mean to add the word "potential" in there! Stock vs stock, the tC has nothing on the Si in terms of speed. That's all I'm saying.

 

Honestly, stock for stock, or mod for mod. The tC can't beat the Si in anything but launches.

As for the 2az having more potiental than the K20..

Heres my opinion (based off personal experience..again):

All motor:
K20 takes 2az. Mainly because theres already so much out there for the K20 to build up. Plus, even going all custom on the 2az, its questionable.

Turbocharger:
Depending on the size of the turbo i suppose. Extremely high boost, if the 2az was built right, i suppose the 2az could take the K20. However, same boost, for instance 10psi on both motors. I would say K20 would produce more whp than the 2az.

Supercharge:
Because of the 2az's already nice low end, it would take the k20 in this.

Overall best performing motor IMO:
Still keeping it daily driven, K20.

Overall best performing car between the two:
Si.

Best value for everything, price, room, performance, everything:
tC is going to be a better bang for the buck. However, if you are leaning more for performance but still able to fit some passengers and take it to the store, Si.

No doubt about it, both cars are great for their money. The Si has stepped up (finally) to the Acura rsx-s class. They've been in the same class, but now the Si can perform like it should in its class. Not many cars under 30K can earn the title of a performance car, even more so under 25K. But i would definitely say the Si deserves the title. It has for quite some time...

Just my thoughts...

Cya

 

nice review but what happened to you having a nsx that was the best jappanese car ever. (except for that limited edition nissan superscar)

 

i'm assuming you aren't talking to me because i have no idea what you are talking about...lol

nsx is a nice a car though, but not the best jdm car..imo

cya

 

ummm sorry i took so long to mention this, but you guys do realise that comparing an Si civic to the tc is like comparing a BMW M3 to a 330 coupe right?

And for the last time 'killerxromances' I was not comparing mod for mod. I made a point and i'll stick by it cause i KNOW what i'm talking about. As a matter of fact, let me make it clearer for you...once the DISPLACEMENT is not going to be changed, the 2AZ will develop more power in the end and have broader powerband too. IF this argument was about a 1AZ vs the K20 then i might be able to concede to SOME of your points...... but then lets not get off topic.

 

I never said you said mod for mod, so i don't know why you keep bringing that up like im against your words? I also never said you didn't "KNOW" what you were talking about. When i say mod for mod, i'm talking about my point not yours. And i know about the displacement issue, i never disagreed with that statement. Chill out a little man.

Also, i've said once in this thread, the tC is not in the same class as the Si. So that point has already been made. Please read my post and understand what im saying before you automatically assume im against you or trying to prove you wrong. Thank you.

Cya

 

Hmmm, so how about si vs wrx...which would YOU guys get? Cause now ive got a few TOO damn tempting choices for a new car if/when I trade my box in. The si is looking hot, but i'm too scared the thing will get stolen....anybody wanna do a (guestimate of course, being that the si is not yet out) comparrison with the pro's/cons of the 06 SI vs the 06 suby wrx? lol

 

isn't competition awesome. Honda had to make a big statement to match what toyota did with the scions. I wonder what toyota's next move will be? rearwheel drive scion? now that would be tight. pies in the sky