because everyone else is afraid to stand up.
lol

 

We had one of these discussion quite some time ago and there was great quality debate, but on the flip side, answers I demanded coming from a Theist perspective were equally ignored and could not be addressed from the perspective of Atheism... so I bowed out.

But, I concluded then, as the last 40 pages most generously prove, that the concept that there can be a "Debate" is entirely false. A web forum, none-the-less, one about something so different, such as cars, is no place to debate something as complex as Theism/Atheism.

That issue, if you wished to debate "Well", would take an enormous amount of time, research, and individual effort that many don't wish to invest. The last many pages prove instead of true wisdom and study on the concept, many choose to just regurgitate generalised info (Pop-Theolody) or less than complete information found through google, or other sources.

On principals, it's always going to be a stalemate, as the root issues tend to go deep into the core worldview of the individual and many times are reinforced by negative experiences of theism, or over-exposure to christian ideas without real understanding of true apologetics.

I've been to 5 of the 7 continents, over 26 countries, spent a lot of time in MANY different cultures and my experiences have shown me a lot about the role of Purpose, Universal Ethics, Absolute Morality, Complexity of Construction, and the role of science in the concept of Identity to strongly suggest, even without faith, that there is an absolute concept of outside influence in our existance...

To debate it is futile here, as the ground rules for such a debate and the study and knowledge neccesary to adequately conduct it couldn't be maintained, and only a choice few would even want to, or be equipped to do it.

Leave it for a time when sitting face to face, meeting every week, we could discuss an issue like this fairly and with the amount of time and study neccesary to really understand and put a true foundation to both perspectives.

But.... until that day....

some nice thoughts

"All that we call human history--money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery--[is] the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy."

- Lewis (Famous Author and Theologian / Former Atheist)

"It amazes me to find an intelligent person who fights against something which he does not at all believe exists."

- Ghandi (You Better Know this Guy)

One of my favorites....

"Atheism is the consequence of Western theology. Atheism is the denial, the negation of an evil God. Men became atheists in order to be saved from God, hiding their head and closing their eyes like an ostrich. Atheism, my brothers, is the negation of the Roman Catholic and Protestant God. Atheism is not our real enemy. The real enemy is that falsified and distorted "Christianity". "

- Alexandre Kalomiros

"If God were small enough to be understood, He would not be big enough to be worshiped."

- Evelyn Underhill

"Understanding God is not attained by calling into session all arguments for and against Him, in order to debate whether He is a reality or a figment of the mind. God cannot be sensed as a second thought, as an explanation of the origin of the universe. He is either the first and the last, or just another concept."

- Abraham Joshua Heschel

"God is not discoverable or demonstrable by purely scientific means, unfortunately for the scientifically minded. But that really proves nothing. It simply means that the wrong instruments are being used for the job."

- J.B. Phillips

 

"There is no god and people that worship them are ignorant"

-Does it matter who said it? It is still speculation.

Those are clever quotes but there are just as many in favor of Atheism so in future contribute something useful i.e. your own opinion compounded with fact NOT your opinion compounded by someone elses opinion.

 

then were is your point of view?

this could be a solely atheist vs. theist debate, except the theist side has not debated anything besides christianity. near everyone here is borrowing their ideas of a god from christianity.

you get your idea of a god from christianity,
it's been shown here christianity is false.
so the idea of their god comes from something false.

so what's their basis that god is true?

 

i think im gonna have to call ghandi out on this one. We fight against it because people who do not believe in god are considered abnormal in this culture. Not to mention the oppression of the religious upon the non-religious.

We are constantly surrounded by the idea that religion offers facts...which contradicts what a belief is. For atheists in this culture, we fight back because religion in all forms is suffocating our very lifestyles.

Non-christian parents fought against having "christmas exchanges" in school. Why? Because they arent christian and dont believe in santa clause. Does this make santa real? Hell no.

So you ghandi, need to rethink your reasoning.

 

That's overly simplistic... and thus why a debate on a message board regarding Scions is futile.

You're really wanting to discuss things that are intensely philisophical and aren't easily categoried into "Fact"/"NonFact" without some extraordinary commitment of time and study. True pursuit of the concepts and realities of the many worldviews and their belief systems would be a lifetime of research and you'd still not be able to cover everything. At some point, in Science, or in Faith, you must trust those, in some way, who have come before you and dedicated their life to a finer understanding of certain topics or beliefs. I'd challenge many to have the same grasp of evolutionary theory as Darwin himself... and thus why refering to his perspectives and ideas carry a lot of credibility.


Discounting Darwin, or the other highly respected individuals in the quoations above, stating that their only opinions, and don't have a very high value, cheapens extremely their wisdom, knowledge, and reputation in the intellectual community. Why you cannot categorise them as "Truth", doesn't mean that they aren't VERY valuable.

What you have to understand is that both arguements for atheism and theism have some credibility and should be respected, researched, understood, and closely analysed prior to being able to discuss them with another individual in a way that would be more than just the spouting of ideas back and forth.

I really liked the following statement, as it really brings to light the quotation from Kalomiros, which states "The real enemy is that falsified and distorted "Christianity". "

The idea that oppression and the negative pervertions of theocracy in world history discredit in any way true pursuit or the ideal of "God" doesn't account for the role of man in perverting the truth of theism, and the true doctrines of religious beliefs such as Christianity, Buddism, or Hinduism. The number of atrocities committed in the name of God cannot be counted, as it's repulsingly clear there is many... but, discounting Truth, by referring to mans perverted crayond drawn picture of truth and his actions based on that, doesn't carry much weight.

In order to discredit, you must have an true knowledge of what you are attempting to discredit, and a respect for the ideals which you are studying. You must dive in to understand the true and unperverted assumptions on both sides of the issues, and in atheism and theism, there are many basic assumptions that must be critically and systematically pursued in order to reach a place in which you can solidly consider both perspectives and come to a conclusion as to which perspective on the world you wish to pursue in more detail and possible choose to adopt.

I've studied Islam, Hinduism, Buddism, Atheism, Western Christianity, Catholicism, and many other perspectives on the world and traveled and lived with many different families, in many different cultures and countries, and still am in awe of the brilliant minds pursuing each and every one of those belief systems, and respect them greatly... built upon that respect comes critical and true pursuit of what ideals and "Realities" are at the core of each belief system and then careful consideration of the strengths, truths, and neccesary assumptions I have to adopt in order to accept that perspective of the world. Only after that, do I sincerely believe that an individual can at least grasp the complexity, demand for respect, and utter non-simplicity of a "Debate" on such topics of Atheism and Theism respectively. and thus why I'd not be "baited" into a debate on SCIONLIFE.com regarding.

You can have at it all you wish, but in the end, it's futile and only includes discussions and ideas which are prepackaged and overly simplistic. You'd have to lock down a thread, have posts that are 20 pages long, and delve into some very complex ideology and philosophy to even try to do it right, and if it's not done right, especially in regard to this, it's not worth doing at all.

 

where?

SL proves christianity false!!!!!!
btw, it's God not god.
he's right about that

 

wow, so you just comment, and don't debate? pretty smart. why post here even?

while i really don't care about my spelling, I purposely don't capitalise god.

 

X2

 

Purposely not recognizing another's respect for a diety, whether you believe in that diety or not, seems quite disrespectful.

It's understandable to not hold other's ideas credible, but respecting those individual's beliefs and traditions, especially when "Debating" with them is ABSOLUTELY neccesary. In your own time, or discussions or writings, It'd be appropriate to not respect a diety or demonstation of respect for that diety, but when discussion or debating with an individual, extending that respect to them is key... and shows a lot about character and true attempts for understanding...

In the same way, technical "Spelling" errors are somewhat unimportant and also don't deserve focus as well.

Although I don't agree with many other individual's belief systems, I still offer intense respect for them, as I'd never purposely disrespect other's faiths... as those faiths become a huge part of their identity and deserve more.

 

Honestly, do you respect polygamy? that's in a religion.
Do you respect the sacrifice of chickens? that's part of a religion.
Do you respect the drawings of pentagrams and having people perform orgies inside them? I'm sure you don't. I don't.

I respect logic. I respect reason.

I don't respect when people say they hear voices that no one else can hear, or that they talk to one. Religion is not an exception for that.

But you can debate each other if you don't respect the others views. It's quite common for people to change each other's views in a debate. I do it. and I'm actually wanting for a theist to do it for me. I'm not done learning, and if someone can teach me anything, i'm all down for it. Think about all the slavery or civil rights debates that went on, think those did nothing? Those men who went into those debates didn't see the light of the other's side, until they sat down and someone showed them the truth and/or the error of their ways.

Look, this country is run by people who believe their god run their lives. So inturn they impose their god's will on everyone. They don't admit it, but they do. That shows no respect for people that don't abide by their faith.

Everyone's favorite "Thou shalt have no other god before me" that's in front of government buildings that we all pay for, shows no respect for people of other faiths. Christians aren't used to shownig respect. What about when a group of atheists and christians sit down at a dinner table? Do you pray or not? what's the respectful thing?

Take stem cell research. a logical person unswayed by any religion would let humankind try to advance it's own medicine. There has not been any moral objection to it by someone who doesn't have their morals dictated to them by their religion.

When Bush says he's got a moral objection to it, he really means he's got a religious objection to it. you know that, i know that. Society doesn't respect my beliefs. It doesn't abide by a separation of church and state. What logical reason is there for a liquor store to be closed on sundays? the state of utah? Kansas's public school system? come on.

 

sometimes, maybe

but NOT roosters
hehehe,
hes on the right side

 

Once again, it's solely pop culture theology and generalized religious bashing that goes on...

Now, if I sit at a table and discuss someone's world view or perspectives, of course there are reasonable limits to what I will or will not tolerate at an event... of course items like human sacrifice, blood letting, and such are things that I would have issues with and would not participate in, but using such extremes as examples profits no one, and takes much credibility away. The basic respects, such as what I discussed in regards to capitalization, or prayer at a table of faith, should be extended for many reasons, and are a great reflection of character and understanding. Of course, it's given that there are extremes, but bringing them up in a topic of debate for your defense of why respecting less extreme and very tolerable situations or contexts is once again, futile and pretty useless.

The other topics, such as why aspects of faith are on our buildings, or our money, or our declaration of independence as a nation are easily defended in historical context and the representation of the individuals and faiths represented by the founders of our nation, some of which, were non-religious as well, such as Jefferson. Recognizing them, and also realizing their influence on our constitution and our history should be understood. Once again, it's not a simple issue, as pop-politics doesn't serve much help in a debate.

That said, the ideas that Christian beliefs impose on our behavior or liberties is somewhat minimized when you account for the beliefs of secular humanism, or other worldviews on culture, law, and liberty in the United States, as just because a worldview incorporates a God, or focuses on Atheistic Beliefs, or other perspectives, they all have opportunity for representation in American Government which has the obligation to represent the ideals and cultural mores of the voting people.

The American Government is a representation of the votes on the people, resembled in the house and senate and protected in the electoral college in regards to the presidency. There are many checks and balances, and the people hold control of what the government can do, as will be clearly demonstrated in the upcoming elections as the tide swings surely.

The government in our republic will always have a responsibility to represent the people, through the voters, and their mores and ideals. It's a majority rules environment and currently, the majority respects and wishes for rules which govern hours of operation, limits on types of research, and other issues related to larger moral beliefs. But, that said, it's a representative democracy and the beliefs of a minority are going to be sacrificed in that system, no matter how founded they are to that group... right or wrong, it's the system of government into which we live, and will only change if the views of the minority spread and they become the voting majority.

Anyways, that's all basic common knowledge, and complaining about it, or using it as a grounds for debate regarding Theist or Atheist beliefs is just baseless, as it has nothing to do with the core beliefs and only to do with the actions of people in a political environment, which can or cannot be manipulating those beliefs for political gain or power... which has been common in world history from the Atheist perspective and the Theist perspective in leadership
of people groups.

Politics and Power, when incorporated into beliefs systems, not only demands intense knowledge of those beliefs systems, but also intense knowledge of political systems and world history behind them. We have had nearly every major belief system represented under the sun throughout world history in government systems and they only add a complicating and usually perverted representation of their beliefs as well, as atheist governments all the way to theocracies are full of examples of how power has corrupted them, which in many ways, points to the selfish nature of mankind, which points in many ways to the concept of theist perspectives in understanding that selfish nature. Which, ONCE AGAIN, cannot be responsibly discussed or really debated in a internet forum like "SCIONLIFE.com"

Here's some nice quotes, a few from some pretty respected people about logic and reason... something which you surely respect....

Albert Einstein -

"The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift."

Blaise Pascal-

"We know the truth, not only by the reason, but also by the heart."

Ambrose Bierce -

"Logic: The art of thinking and reasoning in strict accordance with the limitations and incapacities of the human misunderstanding."

Blaise Pascal-

"The last function of reason is to recognize that there are an infinity of things which surpass it. "

 

^^^^those are some nice quotes

 

WeDriveScions~
since you're not going to comment directly on the conversation, and like you said, just add things we all know, i'll just say this to you.
If you want respect, you have to give it.
I'm sure even you'll admit saying prayers should be a personal thing between you and your god, so you don't need to involve anyone else in it. I don't want to hear about it. People of other faiths don't.
When you decide to pray for personal gain, or to rid yourself of guilt, keep that to yourself. If you want to pray for victims of whatever latest tragedy happens, you don't need to let other people know you're being a good person, just pray to yourself.

While, yes "majority rules", we have these rules we all have to abide by that say there is a "separatation between church and state" so either keep it or change it(since it sounds like you got enough of the voters to, why has it not been done?).

If a certain religious group, say christians, wants to be respected by people that hold intelligence as the most important thing to respect, then come up with logic and reason for your beliefs. But if you have as much credibility as the heaven's gate cult then you'll get that much respect. Having a billion people believing in the same fairy tale compared to only a few dozen believing in the same one, doesn't make either more true than the other. That's a mob mentality, that cause normal people to do things they normally wouldn't do unless in a large, collectively minded group.

I don't really respect the ancient greeks beliefs in mythology, do you? I think religion/mythology is really cool, I'm glad there were such stories to read about. I love reading about history, ancient cultures, religions of the world, shoot I even taught to believe in it when i was a young child and was taught all about it in christian school growing up.

To me, it's fascinating people actually believed in those things a long time ago, but I can understand why they would believe in such things. But now? really?

 

i as well have no respect for the practices of certain religions.
there are religions where women are worse than dogs. They are beaten regularly, cannot show their faces, are not allowed to go to the mailbox without a male escort, to be considered raped there must have been 3 male witnesses to the event (but then are executed anyways for shaming the family). And in these religions, more than 2 women are not allowed to be alone at any given time. Foor goodness sake, they cannot even escape if they wanted to because they cany rise up toether, and if they run away individually someone will turn them in.

Pop culture theology? I know its not...it happens from USA - japan and everywhere in between. Theres a case in the german supreme court right now where a man is accused of beating his wife...but his defense is it a religious right of his given to him by god. According to his religion, he is correct, but does that make it right? hell no.

Be it human rights or something as simple as not swearing....they are all fairly rediculous things institutionalized by religions. The fact that someone can be brainwashed enough to the point where they can deny an entire population their humanity is very disturbing. It actually scares me how malleable the human mind is.

Im ok with people having their religions as long as no ones rights are violated, be it someones outside of the religion or someone in it.

 

the stray will come back to the flock someday...
lawl
you should put Doctor Quinn as your avatar, (instead of captain murphy) because hes borning too

 

borning?

 

"I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
-President George Bush


wow, and people wonder what are some of the reasons i dont support bush.... but lets not talk about the others lol

 

there are over 1 billion atheists/agnostics, non-religious people on earth.

i think the rest of you need to come back to this flock