Oh how I've missed you all! Haha
How's everyone been?

 

"I have opinions of my own -- strong opinions -- but I don't always agree with them. "
-George Bush

Let's not use the qoutes of the mentally disabled!

 

Well seeing how there is 6.5 billion in the world total, I don't really see the 1 billion as being the flock.

 

u know, "christianity" is supposed to account for only 2 billion. But I'm in that number, and so are alot of atheists and agnostics. It's merely a guess. Remember when they did the religion consensus? No i don't either.

And everytime I or any debator mentions any of your religious leaders, George Bush, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Ted Haggard, Jim Bakker, Robert Tilton, Jimmy Swaggert, Billy Graham, and all their hundreds of millions of supporters/followers etc...

Christians never want to be apart of that group, right? Really there are few people that believe in any one's version of christianity.

Plus, you got every denomination of christianity in that 2 billion number. Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, 7th day adventists, quakers...

 

Are you freakin serious!? How did I not hear about that!? When did he say that? Have a link?

 

He definately said that. I think it was during one of his quasi-"Christian" conferences. He played the religious right like a bunch of saps at the beginning of his term. They ate that crap up!
Morons.

 

i will try and find a link. i was reminded about it by something i saw on tv yesterday. But yeah, he definately said it at some sort of "christian support" event.

you can tell when the man writes his own answers...usually because they can end up offending a lot of people or contradicting something someone else wrote.

 

I wasn't really referring to Christianity as the other 4.5 billion. Just God believers. And they do have a Religous census. Its a question on the National Census.

As far as not aligning myself with the likes of Bush or Falwell, I don't really see a problem with that. If I were to group you in with some one that is poorly representing Atheism, you wouldn't have a problem with that?
No matter what the message is there are always going to be a vocal few that twist the message into something for their own gain. This doesn't mean that their is anything wrong with the message itself.

 

ok heres a quick link to a site that has the quote. i just googled it and this is the first one i got. still an interesting site.

http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/ghwbush.htm

 

Thanks... Wow. I'm disgusted. Seriously sick to my stomach that anyone could vote for a man that ran on an unconstitutional platform.

 

70 million evangelicals in this country. Republicans know, and have said many times, if you get the evangelicals on your side, you will win the presidential election.

christians don't care if anything's constitutional, as long as their ideas are served.

 

Anybody on this thread bold enough to admit that they voted for Bush? Reason why they did?

(It's my thread so I can threadjack right?)

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18178917/


^^thought this was interesting article on the topic of evolution on land

 

Sad but true. You have no idea how hard I fought with my friends that blindly wanted to vote for Bush because he was "christian". Never believe what you are told. Look into things. Especially when a politician says it.

That's a pretty blanket statement my man. Aren't us Christians the one that claim the constitution is a Christian Document?

 

You'd be suprised how many people voted for him, and then realized how wrong of a mistake they made. A lot of them felt that he was one way and he obviously wasn't. It's really sad.

 

"felt that he was one way"
Sorry... I don't understand... What "way" did they think he was?

I'm not arguing, just expand on what way they thought he was

 

I didn't vote for Bush and am definately not in "Bed" with the republican party... but confusing political relationships with true beliefs of belief systems is kind of rediculous, as all politics is just the appeal to one people group over another and is FULL of double-speak and power-struggles...

Historically the republican party has attempted to appeal to "Moral" issues, but thats pretty generic and not really accurate, as the Republican party has done an insanely horrible job in moral issues such as Poverty, Health of the poor, World Aid, and Resolving Political Conflict peacefully.... So... Not all "Religious" individuals are Bush supporters, or Republican. It's naive to think that way and totally stereotypical and misinformed.

But, it's easy to stereotype and generalise... focus on the mistakes of the uninformed or mislead, and attempt to discredit the Truth of relegious faith based on it...

It'd be just as easy to focus on Atheist Political systems in the world and how good they are doing "Morally".... It's just not accurate, as power, politics, and people currupt belief systems pretty universally... Look at China.... if that were a realistic demonstration of Atheistic beliefs, the Atheist viewpoint would have a little to explain, but realistically, despite China's depiction of holding Atheistic ideals, it's still a politically corrupt envirnment, very similiar to our own government, which depicts itself as holding "Christian" ideals... it's not accurate, and is only the doublespeak of political talk, attempting to appeal to a mass, and mostly uninformed majority.

Thus, again why discussing faith isn't the best deal here, as it consistently gets pushed into side issues like politics.... blah....

AND.... for crying out loud....

"Christians don't care if anything's consitutional, as long as their ideas are served" WHAT?

Study world political history.... EVERY people group and political party in the world is guilty of this ideal... mixing "Faith" into politics corrupts it, as throughout all history, MEN has used religion as a smokescreen for political gain. Atheist organizations are attemting to get their ideas served, as well as every other perspective.... it's the history of the world political system...

But even in that understanding, I'd strongly debate constitutional law, and the true foundations and perspectives, especially in regards to issues of seperation of church as state, as stated by Jefferson in a letter to the danbury baptist church.... the words, "Seperation of Church and State" are NOT CONTAINED in the US consistution, but here in the exact text from Jefferson's letter regarding an "ESTABLISHMENT" of religion by the government...

You must understand the context of that letter and what jefferson was writing to the specific church in that situation...

I believe strongly that there is a difference between the establishment of a religion and the "demonstation" of religion represented by the voting people. Our elected officials are representatives of the people, which include their religious beliefs and ideals... Also, "the free exercise thereof", seems to be left out of concept... as religious individuals, of all faiths, should have the ability to exercise their faiths freely in all aspects of american life, whether in or out of a political or publically owned envirnment... of course within limits, such as with ANYTHING.... don't appeal to extremes to discredit this.

But... once again.... and again and again.... it's not a political issue, it's not a moral issue, it's not a historical issue.... it's not a philisophical issues, and it can't appropriately be discussed here, and neither can politics.... it's too easy to generalise, over-simplify, stereotype, or discredit based on misinformation....and that's all that continues to go on.

 

Wedrivescions... Were just taking up time here... I don't think anyone is REALLY taking this conversation seriously and I think everyone is aware that this topic would be better suited elsewhere but thanks for your input...
When I switched over to politics I even pointed out it was in essence a threadjack thus not an extension or evolution into a political discussion, simply a new topic.

 

of course you guys are, especially when you're trying to bend it to your will.

But I believe in a "separation of church and state".
what christians like to say is "well sorta, but not really".

personally I think it means a politicians views and public policy should be kept to logic, reason, and their ethical promises.

IMHO, As soon as politicians start saying something to the effect of "I don't believe in stem cell research, because I was brought up christian, and christianity says no." they should be terminated for violation of "separation of church and state".

but you christians like to pretend that it's not, when clearly it is.

Obviously in a land of a majority of christians, most all our politicians are going to be christian, but they have sworn an oath to uphold the constitution. Because our politicians are always in the limelight, I think any religious messages or stands by our elected officials, needs to be curbed while they are running or hold any elected office.

I remember I got into a debate here at work about the whole "we were started as a christian country and based our laws off the 10 commandments, so why shouldn't we be able to have it in public buildings. What's wrong with thou shalt not murder, really?"

I really wouldn't have much problem with 10 commandment concrete slabs in front of public buildings(unless they take tax payer money), if it didn't include one of the most intolerant messages of all time on it.

"Thou shalt have no other god before me"

wow. so hindus, muslims, buddhists, etc... everyone of any different religion is commanded to not worship their own god in the "Land of the free"? nice.

That kind of intolerance is the real reason why this country was started.

 

They thought he was a good ole Christian boy. The kind of guy that really wants to go to war to help people, not for oil. It amazes me how many people truly believe that we went to war to do good. I am not the type of person that feels we should never fight, it just has to be for a good reason.