Christians dont help other people so they can get into heaven. The only way to get into heaven is by believing Jesus died for your sins. You have the choice to help other....just because you help someone it doesnt write you a ticket into heaven...you have a scewed interpratation of what it takes to get into heaven.

jake

 

BS. We know damn well that's exactly what it is inferring and it IS the intention. Some Christians just like to tell the media otherwise to save face. I don't see the tenets of any other belief systems being pushed into the public property do you? And it wasn't the government putting the 10 commandments in the courtroom it was a person. (who happened to work for the government, yes. But he did NOT get permission to do so. He snuck in at night and put the monument in.) And they have petitioned for it, it has been denied almost every time. If I put something on my wall at home it is saying that I accept and endorse it. The government having something in its buildings is saying that we the people of the united states accept and endorse it. ALL the people do not. And unless ALL the people of the united states accept and endorse it, it does NOT belong in the building. This establishes a dangerous precedent (ie. slippery slope).
Then why don't you see stones of any other religion that is followed by the people in our history? Because there is a large portion of christians in powerful positions endorsing christian ideas. You seem to be forgetting that this country was founded by immigrants from all over the world. Not just christians.
Ok, like I mentioned before, Deism, not christianity. Although he was not a founding father, Lincoln was a Deist as well. Not a christian. He believed in god, but was "Not orthodox, not a man of creeds, he was a man of simple trust in God."
Exact quotes from the declaration:
They left it vague on purpose to include every one of the peoples that america is made up of. It was not made as a christian document. Laws of Nature (for atheists), Nature's God (for theists).
Not god, creator. You don't have to be a theist for this to apply to you. Nature created us, you don't need to believe in god for this to be true. Nowhere else does it even hint towards god or religion.

Because politicians use it to sway the voting public to their side. It is a classic strategy that almost always works.

No, a government free from religion is damn near unbiased and thus works like a well oiled machine. Not cluttered up with contradicting opinions that are scattered all over the board.
And what do you mean by religion of atheism? I would disagree that people are religious by nature. People are trusting by nature. And when those you trust most (your parents when you are a child) tell you that god exists, etc, then you will believe them and be religious as well. The church endorses this (because the more christians you have, the more power you have. The main reason they tell people not to use contraceptives).

Ok, I'll give you that.

Well that is where you and I differ. I wouldn't just kill people that got in my way. I don't need religion to tell me my morality. I have a sense of honor that tells me not to achieve success and power by trampling over others unless it is the only way I can survive. Also because if you trample over anyone that isn't you, you will be all alone and that is not a beneficial situation. Again I say, morality does not have to come from religion or fear of eternal consequence. I'd like to think that as an adult people would not need the threat of a slap on the wrist or a spanking to do the right thing.

I would definitely agree to that as well. I do find it funny though that satanists (true satanists, not the popular idea of them -baby sacrifices, etc-) have that same idea... Pure human selfishness.

 

I say that because it is the popular theory of getting into heaven. Ask people on the street, I'd say you'd get about 50% say do good and 50% say believe in jesus to go to heaven.

 

thanks skeorx!

it's always crazy to think even these intelligent christians think humans NEED religion to have morals and not go buck wild on the rest of humanity.

for those people, i am glad they have religion, because they apparently need it. Every atheist i know is among the most passive people i've met. I'm not just saying that, really atheists, not agnostics, are more at peace about the world than near everyone else (cept maybe buddhists).

Dumb people can be agnostics, just refusing to acknowledge a god, and it's crazy most severly handicapped people say their christians, because just 1 christian has told them "what the truth is". That's horrible to do, it's like telling 3 years olds jesus is real, when they don't understand about life yet, but I guess it does give them hope.

All people aren't just totally selfish. I've helped many many old or handicapped people for no reason, other than they needed help. and everytime i see someone broke down on the road pushing their car, i get out everytime to help. i get no reward and my legs and lungs burn something awful, and it puts me out the rest of the day. I'm not looking to add into some karma jar that i'll be able to pull out of someday, i do it because "I treat others as I want to be treated" so that they do the same, just like good ole king solomon says.

Helping out your neighbors feels good, and spreads happiness. I make people laugh all day, because everyone needs it.

again guys, communism does not equal atheism.
Marx was badazz. actually read his stuff. Leninism is a perversion of Marxism. Marx knew capitalism can only continue if we either enslave or just exploit people forever, like we're doing. Everyone can not win in a capitalist state.

and what socialist regime was ever atheistic? Hitler was a christian, he preached of a positive christianity. No atheist would have gone after "the spear of destiny", no atheist would gather people to destroy another culture based upon some non-proven beliefs.

 

He wasn't Christian. He believed in an Aryan race
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan
which is a Hindu belief.

I just have a quick question though, since he was brought up. Since evolution is real, and certain groups are obviously more evolved then others. And all of nature is pretty much survival of the fittest, is what Hitler did a) Wrong, b) the next step in Darwinian thinking, c) Wrong for killing people, but right in his thinking that certain people are better then others.
Obviously I don't hold to any of those beliefs, but I'm just curious how someone from an evolutionest background feels about racism and genocide.

 

He was Christian. He believed in a lot of stuff. I know you'd like to distance yourself from hitler, but he was christian. (since you're using wikipedia as proof, here you go, and why not link directly to his page, instead of "aryan"? come on, you know that's misleading)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_H...igious_beliefs

my answer to your quick question. Some of what he did was what scientists do to mice. He tried to further natural selection, and he did further medicine and science, in ways that no one is allowed.

Some people are more evolved though. No one likes to discuss that certain races have more brain capacity and what seems to be a more evolved brain.

I think killing people is wrong, but he did point out that jews do tend to congregate only with other jews. Problem is, he then did it himself with his "aryan" race.

Helping/hiring each other based solely on their religion, and profiting greatly from non-believers is pretty wrong and exclusionary if you ask me. But atleast **** germany is over, and we look down upon the kkk, but really jews still do it, and so do christians. Now look at this:

I would prefer my son/daughter to marry a _________________
I myself would prefer to marry a _________________
All my friends tend to be only _________________
I would prefer to work for a _________________
I would prefer to hire only _________________

Now put the word christian (or jew) in the blanks.
This is how most christians feel already, and they don't find anything wrong with it.

Now put the word white or black in the blank and see how exclusionary it is.
It's messed up you christians feel that way now, huh?

 

First off, you shouldn't assume someone is misleading you because they only link to one thing and not the exact thing you had in mind.
Second if you read the link you posted, he rejected the basic teachings of Christ and "reinvented Jesus as a fighter against the Jews." So don't imply that he is Christian just because he took what he was raised with and perverted it.


Ok, well just so you know, true Christianity teaches anything but exclusion. Jesus was considered crazy because he sat and ate with prostitutes and tax collecters that didn't even follow Jewish law. He was being inclusive, quite the opposite.

Now what I find interesting is that you are equating prejudices with genocide. I wasn't asking about preferences. I was asking if you follow the thinking that certain people are more inferior then another, by Darwinian thinking it's ok to wipe out those inferior types.

But the most humorous thing I see in what you wrote is that you are putting down Christians, Jews, etc for being inclusive and telling people they are wrong and in the next sentence calling Christians and Jews stupid for not believing what you do. Ironic, huh?

 

what i had in mind. how about when you talk about hitler's religion, you post the page that say "hitler's religion". makes sense, no?

he called himself a christian, and believed jesus christ was his lord and saviour. that's all it takes to be a christian, right?

AND ALL christians take what they were raised with, and pervert it into their own beliefs. but instead of the word pervert, you say "intrepret".

Do you believe in the flood as it was described in the bible, raising salinity so much it would have killed off almost all marine life? The bible says it happened that way. Do you believe birds were created before all land creatures like stegosaurus or cochroach? Do you think gays are going to hell if they don't become ungay?

I'm sure you don't, less you too live your life by very archaic rules. You took a religion, stripped out what you didn't agree with, and made up a new religion that you now believe is true and still name it christianity. Just like Hitler.

teach and actually do are 2 different things.

ok, what did jesus say about marrying a non-christian if you are christian? seriously.
what did jesus teach about hiring/enslaving non-christians?
the list goes on and on about how exclusive jesus was. Sure he taught to convert and then love those converted, but if they didn't convert to his teachings, then he taught you must not deal with those people.

yes i believe certain people are physically born less inferior. look at the pygmies of new guinea for example. both in brain and body are they inferior to most europeans.
Darwin was a christian and never taught to wiope out any people. His research would lead you to believe that those people would naturally be bred out, but in certain cases they will develop differently in a different place.

I don't think they are stupid for not believing in what I do, I think they're stupid because they believe in something they can't even prove to themselves as true.

Look, you, me or anyone that believes in things that have no evidence and merely go off on word of mouth and archaic books that say things like slavery is ok, and pigeons were created before land dinosaurs is stupid.

 

Actually, it would be correct to hold god for every bad thing a human does, as he knows the future, and has the power to intervene, yet does not.

If i know that someone is going to kill someone else, but dont say anything and that person dies.... by all means i can be held partially accountable.

if god is the reason for existance, then he must also be held for all things that happen within this existance. Its all or nothing, there can be no flaws or fallacies.

its as simple as that.


The greatest solution to a complex problem is usually the simplest answer.

 

Come on, let's do away with what we all know to be innacurate and misleading.... Hitler perverted Chrisitan thought to appeal to a people group and grab power... he played on fears and genetics to grab power for himself and a definatatly "Non-Christian" and very anti-bibilcal perspective of Chrisitianity, He played in aspects of pure Paganism as well.... Once again, attacking Christianity based on the pervered political ramblings of a once powerful madman is no use and irrelevant to the idea of what Christianity is, and what it stands for.

Once again, you also talk about perversions of Christianity in relation to perspectives on marriage, slavery, employment, and basic relationshoips without understanding the true theology... The perspective of Biblical Christianity is extremely inclusive and extremely grace filled... just cause you see in perverted by people in the way they live, doesn't change the reality of what it truely is. I dissagree foundationally about your perspective on Gays, Marriage, Employment, Marriage, and so on, as it's a watered-down and basic interpretation, taken extremely out of context, and defended not on it's own merits, but by what you see "People" do with it...

On that principal, I could critique atheism based on what I've seen atheistic people do, not on the merits of what it truely is.... that's unfair and not benificial....

Don't focus on that for me, yet, as that's WAY down the road when it comes to a discussion of Biblical Faith, Christian Apologetics, and such...

But, I want to focus on Logic and Reason for a bit, as for what Atheism truely is....

I want you to account for WHY? Seattle, Skeorx13, backseat.... present to me a logical perspective of WHY we behave morally, why we have concepts of Honor, Happiness, and Helpfullness, within an Atheist Perspective....

Remember, we are only the product of Evolution, and we are only the groupings of inumerable atoms spinning and grouped together beyond our comprehension, and we will only "Be", then cease to "Be".... Why Value human life and respect the laws of Morality? From that perspective.... without circular thinking....

After that, lets venture into "HOW" we came to be, the infinate understanding and faith of true evolution, and the near infinate complexity of life and "Logically" focus on the odds, the significant complexity, and the reality of that insanely amazing evidence of "Design" around us... but not now.... hit me up with the answer to "Why" Morality and the Value of Human life exists first....Once AGAIN, without circular reasoning

This threads should never have been an arguement for or against Christianity in it's pure form, but more of a discussion of the Logic and Reason behind Atheist, or Theist Perspectives on the universe.

 

I am well aware of what the bible teaches, and I know what christianity is supposed to stand for. But instead of saying what generally it's supposed to stand for, because we already all know, does christianity support a christian marrying a atheist, especially without trying to convert? Are christians supposed to be BEST FRIENDS with an atheist, who openly says he will not convert, according to your book? and are you even supposed to mix/interbreed with people of different lands?

it may be "extremely inclusive", because you think all people can be converted, but it is not ALL inclusive. I'm not looking for you to say, "but what about atheism". I'm talking about christianity.

ok answer simply, yes or no. Does chrisitanity accept gays as they are, and not condemn them to hell if they don't become ungay?

Can I be ___, accept jesus as my lord and saviour, that he died on the cross and all that b.s., and not think what I'm doing is a sin, and be accepted into heaven? (I already know the answer, but do you?) your religion is very exclusive.

Look, I'm well aware I am pointing out extremes, but who are you to judge whether Hitler was a christian. I thought those judgements were held to your lord? Hitler could have done 10x worse than he did here, and asked forgiveness for his sins he'd be as much of a christian as you are. Look these are YOUR rules, not mine. I got a whole bag of examples that you christians believe in, because I was one myself. I went to church probably even more than you. I went to christian school and took 1.5 hour bible classes everyday and learned this b.s. as truth.

do that please, because I want to hear about all the millions of people atheists have killed, just like your religion. But we both know, you're not going to end up critcizing atheism, you're going to criticize communists for being communists. I'm not communist. and the ****'s were run as a christian front, and while you'd like to think they weren't christians, they were, just like the KKK, because you have such low critieria for being a christian.
Saying someone is not a christian who says their one, is a very unchristian thing to do.

morality: I want to have a good time, and recognise each person does, so i don't keep them from having a good time.

happiness: If it takes a little effort for me to help someone with their good time, then i do it, because spreading happiness makes me happy. I create art or music, that other people enjoy, that makes me happy.

honor: i know we can either struggle against everyone, or we can choose not to "rock the boat" and get farther. Especially in today's world, I depend on other men's work to give me shelter and food, as they depend on my services. I work hard and get paid accordingly, when I buy myself something, I know my hard work bought me that. that is honor enough in today's world. I also am somewhat nationalist, and i feel honor for where i live. and i respect my fellow citizens of washington state, more than other states, and much more than other countries.

helpfulness: we all have to work together to get ahead. I want to succeed, and i want my family and neighbors to succeed so that they are happy.

this is why you need a religion, and i do not. I value my fellow human, because if anything we are puny creatures stranded on this rock, hurtling through space.

I need his voice to learn from, to make me laugh, to pass the time, to not feel alone. I need his body to help me build shelter, to get food, and in turn I do for him/them. etc...

you're reasoning that god is magic, and magic can do anything, is easier to accept than my little strand of evolution here, some astronomy lessons there, that when looked at together start to show a larger puzzle being put together.

that's fine you think that. But we've yet to hear a logical reason why christians believe what they do.

I'm not trying to dis your very well written out explanations and ramblings, you can see how short and plain languaged I keep it, so all can understand. If you want to be in better command of your language, saying more with less words is key. and just answer some of these questions, don't comment why you think you don't need to or why no one should. we're playing hypothetical games here. this, admittingly, is not the center of the universe for all theological discussion.

 

I'm not going to go into the complex theology and perspectives to counter you oversimplified and false perspective on "Christianity" on the same grounds and why before, and on the grounds that you continue to assault a belief system based on the practices of people who "Said" or in some small way" exemplified "Part" of that belief system... not the whole thing.... like Hitler, or many of the other examples in history... It's extremely unfair to refer to Hitler or many of the other historical movements like the KKK, guised in the "appearance" of Christianity, when failing to accept that many of the communist and socialist atrocities were un the guise and "appearance" of Atheism.... They perverted the true aspects of atheism while appealing to the idea of "No God" and many perverted the true aspects of Christianity.... You don't keep it simple to clearly communicate.... you keep it simple to oversimplify complex issues in your favor... Nothing in science, religioun, or belief systems is simple.... and by trying to make it that way, you cannot have a real profitable, or even respectable discussion regarding.... AGAIN... why this attempt in "Scionlife.com" is pretty rediculous in the first place and is FULL of over simplified perversions of true Theistic Thought... and continues to be...

REALLY.... Hitler, KKK = Christianity.... it's innacurate, false, and can be clearly rebuked in many ways.... yet larger, more complex and really difficult issues in regards to theistic thought are ignored, just to get cheap and innacurate shots off at Theistic thought... Modern Respected Atheistic Minds would slap you silly if they heard you spouting such crap, and have way better and more educated perspectives on theistic flaws.... you continueing to put out oversimplified perspectives takes away from their respected ideals and thoughts...

There are some brilliant and respected atheistic minds, but they keep fact, philosophy, and the respect for the COMPLEX issues that relate to human thought high upon a podium, and don't delve into the rediculous rants and emotional appeals of issues that are the products of the worldviews 100 times down the thought process.... Keep is basic on the tenants of Atheistic thought and the defense using LOGIC and REASON....

But, you still ignore WHY? Why does spreading happiness make you happy? why the value on happiness, why want others to succeed, and what if someone elses version of a good time conflicts with yours? Why focus on the betterment of Man, or the betterment of an individual life, as it's inconsievably insignificant in the context of all the matter out there and all of time in the past and to come. Why value us as only the byproduct of matter collected in a unified form, while not assigning the same value to all other matter, if that is all there is? Why value the human experience over the experience of other matter?

Take for instance this paraphrased thought.... evolutionism is the belief in the formula of the universal process is from imperfect to perfect, from small beginnings to great endings, from the bland, to the elaborate: the belief which makes people believe that morality springs from savage taboos, thought from instinct, mind from matter, organic from inorganic, the universe from Chaos. It doesn't make logical sense and isn't plausible, because it makes the general course of natural developement so INSANELY unlike the parts of nature we can observe.

Think for a second about the old puzzle as to what came first, the chicken or the egg... Modern evolutionary thought, and the demand of the atheist perspective is the focus solely and exclusively on the the though of the chicken coming FROM the egg.

We are tought to notice how the perfect oak tree grows from the small acorn and to forget that the acorn itself was dropped by the perfect oak. We are reminded that the adult human was an embryo, never that the life of the embryo came from to adult humans. We love to think that the jet engine of today is the descendant of the rocket; we don't equally remember that the rocket didn't come from some more basic engine, but from something much more perfect and complicated that itself- a man's genious mind. The obviousness and logic you tend to find in the idea of emmergent evolution, simple to complex, isn't demonstrated in any way in the natural world, and therefore must be questioned...

Think for a moment about Reason, Logic, or the mind... If minds are wholly depedant on brains, and brains on bio-chemistry, and biochemistry (in the long run) on the meaningless flux of the atom, how can you understand or believe that the thought of those minds should have any more significance that the sound of the wind in the trees?

Therefore, the scientific view of logic, reason, and in the end, morality, cannot even fit within it's own explanations... thus the appeal for something beyond the recent (in all of history) pure dependance on science for fact, and the ability to pursue beyond science for design, purpose, or direction...

It's a catch 22... and circular in many ways....

You gotta think who you're talking to a bit.... I'm no misinformed or blindly lead theistic individual... I've researched, read, and experienced many different worldviews, and resent simplified and perverted depictions of all worldviews.... including the worldview of Christianity and the worldview of Atheism... I've travelled to many continents, met with many leaders of different perspectives, and come to my own conclusions about what to adopt into my worldview... it's not simple, it shouldn't be simple, and it will never be simple...

 

hey thats cool!
ive always thought that and you put it in a new light!
wouldnt wanna go "buck wild"
but still it makes sense. if everything is randomly here then what is there to base morals and ethics on? nothing!!! so everyone get buck wild!
si o no?
uh, it doesnt matter what "people on the street say" or even what so called christians say, it matters what jesus said.
btw that would be funny to go around asking that though; make a youtube vid of it lol.
yes! lol. even sinning and not believing that your sinning and going directly against the bible is ok as long as you accept jesus as your lord.
thatll be muah. i blindly follow jesus.
like rick james to charlie murphy!
are you serious? what if my idea of a good time is burning buildings or eating children. hmm, tasty (rubs belly)
good thing your moral about it and dont keep me from having a good time! thanks!

 

^ I'm sure, not blindly.... LoL...

The Rational Mind in all it's majesty is a great tool... and, from the perspective of Christianity, is a God given tool to use to better understand yourself, your envirnment, and understand the complexities of life and faith...

You can't over simplify...

 

you are up late, lol .
maybe doin a little ??

 

thats one of the funniest things ive ever heard!!! haha.
just imagine jesus cruising the lake with turtle shell jordans. i just got like like 3 coworkers on the floor laughing.
im so trying this. just need to find some turtles.

and then peter strapped on some turtle shell jordans and hopped in too. but then he didnt tie one good enough and started to fall!
damn those cheap turtle shell laces!

 

 

Amoungst other things... The reason I'm up late a lot is that my shifts at the Portland Rescue Mission vary alot and I end up working nights, and it gets pretty quiet sometimes, enough for me to read here a bit and see what's goin' on in the Scion-land I was once overly crazy f/or.

I'll be there all day tomarrow... 12 hours during the day, then wrap around to work Monday and Tuesday night, then wrapping around again for meetings during the day on Wednesday and work till 9 there... so it's day/night/night/day... lol.... I'm up late a lot... and then up all day a lot...

It's the nature of work which few tend to do, and much is needed to be done with very little money... So, Pray... Yes, For good rest, for patience and compassion, and most of all, that people see the byproduct of the TRUE beliefs of Christianity played out in the real world.

 

Ah yes, the "I know what the answer is but I'm not going to tell you" excuse. Most of us grow out of this after the toddler years...
Why is it unfair? Because they were/are evil and you don't like equating your beliefs with evil people? A rose by any other name is still a rose, whether you take the thorns off or leave them on. Is everyone who doesn't follow the beliefs to a T not christian then by your logic? That's probably about 95% of the population of christians in the world that aren't really christian if you go by that logic.
It is pointless and verbose to complicate something that naturally has a simple answer. The simplest answer is almost always the truth. You can make something as complex as you want, but you'll only end up contradicting yourself or end up going in circles. Science is extremely simple, it just works in a complex cascade of events. Each event is a very simple cause and effect. Only when you look at the overall system does it seem complex.
I don't think that is what he's trying to say. Hitler and the KKK did not equal christianity. The KKK spouts off christian beliefs and call themselves christians. Hitler was a follower of christianity. Individuals are not the whole group. He's not saying all christians are KKK members or little hitlers. I don't think he's being that daft.

Haha, I just think its funny that a theist is telling an atheist to use logic and reason...

Because somewhere along the line in evolution someone had a mutation that caused an endorphin to be released when you help someone of your own kind. As helping out your fellow creatures is beneficial for the species as a whole, this trait was propagated through the lineage. The latter question differs with everyone. Some people trample over others' good times. Some allow their good time to be trampled on. Others still come to a compromise to maximize both good times without problems. I prefer the latter.
Not sure what you mean by this. Could you elaborate a bit?

Curious where you got this quote from. Evolution doesn't go from imperfect to perfect. It's about adaptation, not perfection. NO creature is perfect. Some are more adapted to their environment than others, but none are perfect by a long shot. Evolution is based completely on logical sense and is totally plausible as has been supported by scientific FACT. Unlike theism which has NO PROOF and has shown to be logically inconsistent at best. It has been my experience that the opponents to evolution rarely have a proper grasp of the topic.
This is merely a mental tool for philosophical debate, not to base reality on. Dinosaurs evolved before chickens. Dinosaurs laid eggs. Egg came before the chicken. Scientific fact. Next question.
Again with the perfect comment. Not perfect. Fairly well adapted, but not perfect.

Not sure what you mean by this... typo maybe?
Well, I don't see the jet engine as a modern rocket. Rockets are just explosives with an end open. Engines work much differently, though if you just meant that they push the craft in one direction, I suppose the analogy might work... Just because man created a better machine through trial and error and manipulation doesn't mean that all things occurred through a creator. Correlation does not equal causation. Again I say, evolution has solid evidence that IS demonstrated in the natural world. There is mounds and mounds of evidence all over the world in every environment to support evolution. There is no question about its existence. There could be debate as to the specifics involved, but the concept is completely sound. Simply waving your arms and brushing it away non-chalantly doesn't make it false.
Very poetic but who ever said that minds are more significant than the wind? I think it's funny that you keep bringing up logic and reason and then go right into a poetic tirade about opinions on significance and value of one thing over another. Stay focused on the facts at hand.
Science isn't here to hold your hand. It's not here to give you purpose or direction. It is there to explain the workings of the universe so that they might be exploited for our desires and needs. And before you say it, no you DON'T need religion to fill this gap. You can find deeper meaning in life without a god policing your every move.

And man... and not to be a d!ck or anything, but try proofreading your posts a bit. I spend half the time correcting errors. Firefox has a spell checker built into it. Sorry I'm a bit of a grammar ****...

 

Actually that's not a bad idea, I may have to do that. Just gotta find a camcorder I can use... Either that or take surveys and post the results. ****, I may even start a thread here and see the results...
Funny, I'm pretty sure the protesters would disagree with ya there...
Funny, I thought we had laws for that... laws that atheists agree on as well as theists. Hmm... it IS interesting though that you mention eating children... Guess who else was christian? Jeffrey Dahmer.