Actually, wages paid out, employment, and general income have all gone up this quarter, based on all recent reports. Some reports will tell you that the middle class is shrinking, but they usually sample days based on business cycle troughs, and not trends. If there is any downward trend, it is microscopic compared to the size of the US middle class. Nothing to really be alarmed about.

 

well put! All economic theory shows that tax hikes will only increase the likelihood of a recession.

 

psht... everyone knows more expensive gas is better.. duh.
____ it, we can afford it right!

 

Lowering taxes is one of the very FEW things Bush has done right.

Screw the poor people who choose to stay poor.

Yes, they CHOOSE to stay poor. Why do they fricking have a dozen kids when they know they can't afford them? I'll tell you why... welfare.

They know that the tax payers will pay for every baby they pop out from pre-natal care all the way up till the kid is 18.


Higher taxes is the last thing we need since our currency is lower. You raise taxes and investors will run away resulting in a heavy recession or God forbid a Depression.

 

Wow... You're first post was a little... Scary. But the last two post show some REAL. Knowledge about economics and finance.

Being a US citizen does not mean we are entitled to wealth. It means that we are entitled to choose to take the long, difficult path to EARNING it. Go anywhere else in the world, and people will laugh at the thought of poor people earning and saving their way out of poverty.... They'll even laugh at the possibility.

 

I don't really care what people think of me in the internet If they think I'm a ________ , so what, I don't care.

Yeah, I'm a LEGAL immigrant and I worked my way to the top. I went from making beds, cleaning rooms, cashier, sales person, secretary, pc tech support, pc tech, web admin to server applications admin. It wasn't easy. I went to night school. Busted my ****, taking the bus at night, at times in the rain. Living in a cramped apartment. I slowly and painfully worked my way to the top. I never got a penny from tax payers. In fact I got a loan for my college education and I'm paying for it now.

I didn't get into school because of affirmative action, I'm a race that actually gets denied because there's "too much" of us already in college.

I love America because this is a country that gives you all the opportunities to make something of yourself as long as you take and make use of it and most important... WORK HARD. Nobody owes anyone anything. If you succeed, it's because of your hard work. If you fail, it's because the lack of it.

I still miss my native country, but I'll die and be buried in my new home

 

I was actually trying to pay you a compliment.

Regarding immigration, it's funny how mainstream media and Hollywood make no distinction between legal and illegal immigration. They're so caught up on fair and unfair for illegals, try everyone who came here legally and worked the system seems to get the shaft. This country was indeed founded by immigrants... Legal immigrants.

 

Yeah, tnx. It took my entire family literally years to all immigrate here by the book so it infuriates me when some pregnant pig jumps over the fence, drops her load and tada... instant American citizen... and sticks their hands out for money and benefits EARNED and MEANT FOR Americans.

 

This whole welfare system is a wreck i completely agree with you. But saying that the poor pop kids to get money makes no sense at all and yes trust me I know this for a fact. The reason why it makes no sense is because the money given for popping multiple children actually decreases after your first child. Popping these kids like candy, means they are putting themselves in even a larger bind than not having them.

I do work in connection with the department of social health and services here in washington and we educate each parent that comes in for ANY reason that exact financial crunch. TANF, a support setup that gets the most rip, actually is helpful and respects the concept that one must work for their money. You only get 5 years on the system for your entire lifetime (dependents are not allowed to sign up for the assistance, and only one member, ie address, is allowed the assistance) , must show proof of working (or if unemployed must show proof on a weekly basis of job searching). The assistance payouts are no where near, or ever will be near the very basic of living let alone help with the cost of living in any area. TANF also helps programs that many people do not realize are out there, such as the one that I teach. It is a educational program for unemployed disabled adults, that allows them to be trained in Microsoft office and once completing both word and excel are required to go into a work experience program which gives them a job history. During this entire two month program, they are required to be searching for jobs.

Trust me, the welfare system is effed up, but most importantly it does not need to be destroyed completely, but restructured. Much of the nation is one check away from homelessness, and everyone has the ability to fall into the need for assistance (well excluding gates...). Take a single man, gets into an accident and god forbid he can not pay for his traumatic injury which has left him brain damaged, no longer fit to work in his previous field. This injury leaves him extremely unemployable in a position in which can support the basics of life (and yes beyond mcdonalds). Many of my clients are in the exact same situation, and god forbid such an incident happens to you, and for this exact reason is why we need a welfare system (upgrade system), but some sort of system at least. And remember, the most beneficial, successful (both for the client, and the taxpayers) tend to cost the most money. BUT THEY WORK AND ITS PROVEN! One of my clients went from making nothing for over a year due to a massive injury that has left him unable to do physical work, to getting a full time position and being paid nearly 36,000 a year.

Go read up on what Goodwill has to offer for the disadvantaged and disabled. All profits and income that Goodwill receives is from the clothing stores that we have all used (so if you feel bad, i know some of you do feel bad for using it for Halloween costumes or something like that DONT, it pays for the programs that they have to offer).

Yes, i am majoring in social welfare (surprising that they have such a major). Yes I am ____ed off with the welfare system and will be heading into law when I graduate and will work my way up. Or go into clinical rehabilitation and counseling for young children who have suffered a traumatic injury especially a brain injury.

 

I am an econ grad and expert, so you probably know what you are talking about on this one.

I have a few side questions for you though:
1) isn't the policy where welfare payouts decrease on the number of dependents a recent policy change? Isn't it true that the total amount received STILL substantially increases per child?

2) I recall (but am not sure) that many states have their own welfare systems, based on their own laws and state tax revenue. Is this true?

Thanks for any input you can give on those.


Regarding welfare, I always liked Bill Clinton's policy of empowerment and enablization over free handouts. Most left wing people wet their pants at the mention of his name, but his economic policies were rather conservative, for a democrat.

 

I am an econ grad and expert, so you probably know what you are talking about on this one.

I have a few side questions for you though:
1) isn't the policy where welfare payouts decrease on the number of dependents a recent policy change? Isn't it true that the total amount received STILL substantially increases per child?


Define substantial! What would you consider is the price to have a child per month, on average (this includes a statistical bill increase: ie electricity, gas, water). This price should also include a cut in wages during the late pregnancy and early childhood. Although I dont know the exact figures, and could possibly be corrected, I do remember hearing how in some states its 100 bucks a month (which I think is high compared to others) to pay for food, medical, diapers, toiletries, clothing, bedding, eating utensils for the child (bottle, etc) and so on.

Yes this policy change is relatively recent, it was during the switch over to TANF (Temporary Assistance for Need Families) in 1997 (yes this was put in place by Clinton). This change, replaced the AFDC (Aid to Families with Dependent Children) which was in place since 1937 (i think, I know mid 30's for sure). AFDC was known for that very problem of having participants have children to prolong the effects due to its lax time and restriction policies. TANF removed that and are forcing people to work (albeit that states only need to ensure that 50% of single parents are working and 90 percent of two parent households, not perfect, but something).

2) I recall (but am not sure) that many states have their own welfare systems, based on their own laws and state tax revenue. Is this true?

Yes and no, just like with laws across the nation, there are federal and state welfare aspects. On one hand, the goodwill that I work for is one of the very few that offer this program (Office Essentials), in fact there are only three state wide (with two in the works as we speak). Coming out of Tacoma, a relatively low income city, we are still only able to serve 30-40 clients a year, which is extremely low.

TANF is federal, federally regulated and financed. AFDC was also federal. But there are changes per state, to have some sort effect with the cost of living for the state (not regionally, which is stupid). Within each state, programs and other assistance programs are different. There was a workers program in NY that bombed due to political scandals, but that program was never seen anywhere else in the nation.


Regarding welfare, I always liked Bill Clinton's policy of empowerment and enablization over free handouts.

If you couldnt tell I am also a fan of Bill, he did great work with what he had. Who freakin cares of he got his jollies off in the oval office. That concept of empowerment, and the right to self determination, is the exact policy that true, trained and educated social workers a required by the National Association of Social Workers Code of Ethics (NASW) to go by. It is not always an easy task to get on many of the needed programs because of this. Many of the people that you see working at Foster placement programs, DSHS or any other health services are not true social workers and we (including me) are working hard on forcing government that to change and punish them so that these programs really can work the way they were intended to. Would make them work more efficiently, and and not allow for the people that are able to suck the teet of social welfare.

A great way to think of it, is a hand up and not a hand out.

 

Thanks for your answers! Very well put, and I can tell that you will do well in your field. I know I'll be reading up on this stuff!

/end threadjack.

 

I understand people fall at times and need help. Welfare should be made into a 0% interest loan that the individual have to pay back.

there are plenty of incentives for people who pop out babies like pop corn.

They get food stamps, subsidized housing, public transportation voucher and yes... even gas vouchers. Not only that, they get 100% fully paid day care. My wife is a school teacher and those that are subsidized get FIRST priority over others that are not.

If a non-subsidized parent is late for picking up their child 3 times, they are kicked out of the program. If a subsized parent is late 30 times, you better go pound sand.



The Social sector of our government do NOT want the poor population to shrink. They get their budget/funding based on demmand. The less poor people, the more government employees who "help the poor" will be laid off. So you can't be serious that a "social worker" wants to eradicate poverty. That's like a mechanic wishing that cars last forever.

 

The daycare is state by state, so that is not a national thing. I know people in poverty that do not have that chance here in wa. But with the incentives, i think you really need to go read up on it first. Those incentives are actually harmful and are discussed with people that are in poverty that have children already, That entire incentive list does not increase proportionately when they have another child (although it was true under AFDC, but not TANF). They know that they can fall under even more with each child they have, some dont listen because they dont believe it while others want a child. And remember, outside of food stamps (transportation vouchers and gas vouchers are not government aid, those are aid from companies like Goodwill and others that use them out their own pocket.)

As for a social worker being in quotes, thats some bs. Followed closely by us not wanting to eradicate poverty. I think you may have forgotten this so called demand is larger than any social service agency can help. A teen program in my city can only support a thousand teens, while there are still at least 13000 that need help and falling through the cracks. So yes, there is a reason why my company is tripling our services to be able to help more people. My program alone is being asked to work with nearly 175 people by the time our new building is finished, while the teen program is wanting to expand to 3500.

So yes a true social worker does want to eradicate poverty, and if you think that is the only thing a social worker can actually do.... go do some more reading on that. I will be money that every single person in this nation has worked with one in one form or another. I know Bill Gates employs social workers at Microsoft (Employee Assistance Program) and I know one of my professors has used one. Look at what I am aiming for, working with kids who have gone through a traumatic brain injury. No where near where the eradication poverty would actually effect my pay. Other students, military social work, counseling, Department of corrections, child abuse task force, you name a area of work and I can name a social workers position with in it. We can go into HR fields, man the list is truly endless...


edit: here is a quick edit, the careers that pay the least are the exact same positions you are talking about, and now why in the hell would we not want to get rid of that position? If I am not mistaken, the starting pay for many of these positions are a salary based 30k a year and that is expected at 40 hours a week, but there is not one social worker who only works 40 hours, I know plenty that are working at the very least 55-60 a week to get the job done.

 

So tell me, what use would social workers that help the poor be, if there are NO poor around?

Simple question, please answer.

 

International Poverty
Counseling and Aid for the ones that could become poor
Promoting Programs and possible Aid for when a recession/depression happens
Aid for poor immigrants
Teach classes to keep people stay out of poverty

you know its this funny thing called PREVENTION! Focus on prevention now that we dont have to work with the problem.

Just because the poverty line is erased, does not mean that the line just isnt increased. Just because we were able to aid the lower class to get their boot straps up, does not mean their work is done, their aid and support goes to the next social class. Get done with that class and we move up. For ever poor social class that is supported and improved, doesnt mean the lowest income bracket would not then be considered poor. There are even classes and education for middle-middle upper class to help with the prevention and promotion of stopping poverty (since many are just one paycheck away from poverty)

Oh and another thing, like many careers in the world if the position are you in is no longer needed and you are released you move on. With the massive need for social workers, you are easily able to move on. In fact when I was one month into my internship, with a full year to go before I graduate, I have already been offered two jobs, one where I work and one where I interviewed for an internship. The benefit of social work is that you can work literally work in almost every field. From Microsoft, the NFL, state or federal gov't, law, hospitals, clinics, etc.

 

Isn't America's big problem is that we stick our noses in other country's business? So why should we mess with other nation's business?

So everyone is accountable for other people's bad choices in life? So if I have more children than I can afford, it's ok to stick the bill to you?

Why should we welcome poor, unskilled, non-English speaking and uneducated immigrants? All they'll be is a burden to society. Why don't we welcome immigrants that will CONTRIBUTE like programmers, doctors, nurses, scientists... etc.

Yeah, it's called common sense. If you can't afford something, don't buy it.

This prevention thing is bullcrap. In order to get aid, you HAVE to be "poor". You will not get unemployment checks if you're going to be laid off in 2 months.

Social programs do NOT work. The poverty population INCREASES year after year. Programs that do NOT work should be cancelled, it's a waste of tax payers' money.

 

haha nice!

 

[b] My program works! Its a proven fact, just got done finished a grant research analysis on it and according to statistics it works. If a client completes the entire program, including the work experience portion they have a 95% chance of getting a full time position (such as admin assistant, working in school districts, one is working at L&I as a safety specialist) These so called poor choices are at times uncontrollable, one of my clients didnt divorce her husband, didnt ask for a degenerative foot disorder, ADHD, dyslexia, diabetes and depression.

So are you done and ready to think outside of the box and beyond just handing out checks that social programs are starting to head towards? Just like the change from AFDC to TANF, we are heading more towards a non-check, non-welfare check social welfare.[b/]

 

two more things:
What would a car mechanic do if there were no more cars?

By no means do I think TANF is perfect, FAR from it. I agree with you that many of the welfare programs inacted at this moment are worthless! Including the no child left behind act. But we are at least moving in the right direction, even though we have a ways to go still. It IS getting better... Go do the research if you dont think thats true...